IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

In the link posted above, Tony Gatto has blocked Chick Justin from bombarding him what he must have considered false information. Was he wrong? Her accounts are now being published by Emmis a major broadcaster.

Justin claimed that her friend Tall Boy, a drifter saw Lauren leave Jay's just like he said. Then, Tall Boy hears a scream around 4:36 AM. Emmis Broadcasting printed this rumor in the Indianapolis Monthly. Who is Tall Boy? Why has no investigative reporter tried to track him down? Is he really the drifter from Muncie, Indiana? Evidence seems to indicate this is indeed false information.

Justin found a tweet that finds Jay Rosenbaum's new business partner DB was in Bloomington on the day Lauren went missing eating in a restaurant. Was he really the house guest referenced by HT? If that's true maybe he is also POI number 1. Why did the media print this calling it a rumor without checking it out.

Doesn't anyone else know how to use the phone? Couldn't media have asked DB if he was there? Should he be POI number 1? Or, is CJ completely wrong?

We spent several pages arguing whether the Mystery Man was AB or CR. A quick listen to the detective's account and comparison of the 3 accounts from the one witness made it clear Mystery Man was Cory Rossman. But still we spin in circles. Furthermore, the witness did not see Lauren near the last cam near 10th and College Village. She saw Lauren near 10th and College almost a block away. Either Very Vertias or I have trouble following the detective's simple narrative. I believe he has Lauren on her feet being pulled along by Cory at the last camera, not piggy back.

We spent several pages spinning on the dumpster theory. But a quick phone call to the trash hauler revealed the dumpster was emptied days after Lauren went missing and the owner's wife looked for Lauren in the trash.]

There was doubt about the dogs. So, I spoke on the phone with 3 people who knew. No one else took the time to call.

I can't just keep spinning in circles without looking for answers. So, do I have to be the one to contact DB too? Where are our investigative reporters? I find that very frustrating along with all the foolish ego clashes in this case.

Tony Gatto blocked Chick Justin. But, I think DB needs to answer 2 questions.
Where you at JR's? Are you a POI?

Corey's car was searched with dogs. JR did not have a car. I'm afraid someone else took Lauren Spierer.

For quite a while now I have questioned the lack of suspicion directed toward DB and MB too for that matter. I'm also not convinced that there shouldn't be more scrutiny of BB, and any other of ZO's associates that might have been hanging around that night. Having realized that LS might have (still not so sure she could have though) left JR's and not been captured on camera is, for me, where everything falls apart. It's a question that can't be answered, but it's clearly the apex of the evening, either she left or she didn't but either way it was the defining moment. It's almost come to the point that everything up until then becomes of little consequence because the real issue is did she or didn't she walk away from JR's. We can all speculate until the end of time but as of right now, I've not come across one single fact that proves she did or she didn't walk away from 5N. I feel certain that the answer to that question will serve as the catalyst for finding her.


"Her accounts are now being published by Emmis a major broadcaster." I will so grateful if you could please point me in the direction of these publications? I'd love to read them.

 

[sammi89]

I can't just keep spinning in circles without looking for answers. So, do I have to be the one to contact DB too? Where are our investigative reporters? I find that very frustrating along with all the foolish ego clashes in this case.

Tony Gatto blocked Chick Justin. But, I think DB needs to answer 2 questions.
Where you at JR's? Are you a POI?

Corey's car was searched with dogs. JR did not have a car. I'm afraid someone else took Lauren Spierer.

Are you of the opinion that someone specifically took LS and if so, what is your theory? Or are you of the opinion that this was a random abduction?

As someone mentioned, nothing is 100% certain. I agree wholeheartedly, but I would qualify that statement that although nothing is 100% certain in a situation like this, certain situations are more probable than others.

Random abductions are rare to begin with. I wonder sometimes if the random abduction theory is intensified on boards like this because so many other cases on this site truly are situations of random abductions.

I am of the opinion that, while possible, random abduction in THIS case is less probable.

First, JR claims to have performed this walking test. Anyone remember their college days of drinking? I'm a recent grad and after a night of partying, I don't think me OR my friends would be in the right frame of my mind to come up with the idea of a walking test before letting a friend go home, and I didn't do any of the harder drugs that are rumored to have been available that night.

JR paints a picture of an LS that was coherent enough to pass this "walking test." A coherent, walking LS is an LS that should have been able to scream or make some kind of loud noise. I'm not saying she might have been able to put up a fight, but who knows. No signs of a struggle were found or heard, apparently. No one claims to have seen LS. No one even claims to have seen suspicious activity, right? Except maybe for the rumored person carrying a girl over his shoulders.

I've thought about maybe, if she WAS able to walk, she might have been the victim of a hit and run. But again, nothing. No glass was said to be found in the roads, no blood, no skid marks, etc.

She's never seen again on camera.

SO, there is NO physical evidence, videos, OR witness accounts EXCEPT for a POI. I think that should be a HUGE red flag to at least remain skeptical.



Additionally, the parents have stated SEVERAL times that they do NOT think this was a random abduction. They have spoken with LE. LE may not be able to tell them EVERYTHING but I would hope they would at least be able to say whether a random abduction was the most likely answer. They have been a part of organized searches. They have their own PIs on the case who CAN tell them what they think is likely or unlikely. They have maintained that they don't think it was a random abduction. I find that to be very significant.


On another note, JW also seems to think the 5N boys were/are suspicious. His dad flew in early on in the case and together, his dad and JW barged into 5N and demanded to know what happened to LS. Additionally, JW threatened to have JR punched at a party several months later. I think his opinion is valuable too. I hope that before he went silent he at least explained why he reported her missing so quickly - I don't find it coincidence that he put 2+2 together so quickly. I don't mean that to say that I think he was involved, but that he heard something or knew something about these boys to arrive to that conclusion so quickly.

Also, look at the stark contrast the parents treat JW vs. the boys of 5N. The parents do not find the silence of JW surprising (maybe because it is hard on him, or maybe because significant others are usually at least suspected, especially those in rumored rocky relationships, or maybe specifically because CR and his lawyer implied significant others are usually involved?). They also state they think JW has shared what he knows of that night, and criticize the others for not sharing everything, if anything.


http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/st...d-the-truth-we-want-to-know-what-happened.sto

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/spierers-doubt-man-s-account-of-night-daughter-last-seen



I guess I'm also confused on what you think contacting DB would do? Of course he would not admit anything to you, if he is culpable.

I think the media never focused on DB because he was only found to be in Bloomington that night from a sleuther who saw his tweet. Additionally, there is more interest in the Bloomington area for obvious reasons and he was merely visiting. I think it was a stroke of luck that the media never focused on him or made him in any way accountable. It seems like some of the media is at least aware on some level, but they can't just force him into the spotlight unless he in some way inserts himself because that might open the newspapers to defamation suits.

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/circlecitizen/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10474985
(the media at least seems to be aware of DB ^^)

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Here is what I would like to know about DB. Did LE interview him? Is he on the POI list? Are there cameras at the restaurant he tweeted about, if so have those cameras been reviewed, or has his presence there been verified in any way? Has any waitresses been interviewed to make sure this Ross Business School kid didn't look like a lumberjack that morning. Has his car been checked out? These seem like simple questions with easy enough answers that could rule him in or out, but have they even asked?

As for BB: Where does he work? Where and who was he with that night? Does he have a car? Does he drive a white truck ? Has his vehicle been checked out?
And yes, I know the white truck has been cleared and I also know they said the same thing early on about the truck that belonged to Isreal Keyes.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

:menorah: Praying for a Chanukah miracle.

 

[imkeylime]

Why did they dispose of LS's body? (and yes, this is based on the theory that those at 5N are "they", which I consider to be the prevailing theory and increasingly supported by what WSr's are allowed to know and analysis of that information)

This is not a new question. At this time, I am convinced that while *someone* may have had sexual intent in mind that night, the reason to vanish the body had to do with exactly what drugs were in her system. (even so, I think actual cause of death would have been drug interactions including alcohol and their effects - like drowning on vomit, head injuries, her health condition or some combination of those things)

For example, if LS had only consumed alcohol at JR's that night and then dropped dead in the gravel lot, I do not think she would be missing. And I would think the same for cocaine.

I think she is missing not because of common substances that would have been found in her system or medicine cabinet, but something else. Klonopin would fall into that category as well as Ecstasy, Rohypnol, GHL, GHB, or if those aren't stupid enough possibly even something as crazy as Bath Salts or Datura. Xanax would be somewhat borderline. While it's effects would also fit the pattern of her declining condition, I'm not sure if this were something she was prescribed and had in her medicine cabinet or not. I do think she trusted others to know the safety of whatever she may have knowingly ingested. (I say this because, offering something to her which is terribly dangerous bears little difference to me than slipping it into her drink) At the same time, when the condition of LS is compared to that of CR, she is in much worse condition. This rightly opens the possibility that she ingested something that CR did not, knowingly or not.
Quite possible that even if she knowingly consumed something, she did not realize the danger or was misinformed about the substance(s).
Since I believe those at 5N are responsible for her missing person, i do not think that some random or devious outside person spiked her drink at Kilroy's. There was some knowledge between them of what she had consumed and the circumstances of her death (whether by panic or more calculatingly) such that we have 1 Amnesia and otherwise major inconsistencies from MB and JR.

Also lean very strongly towards that she most likely had died between 3:00 and 3:30. I feel the calls at 4:15 were made after she was disposed, and stories/strategy (if necessary) were agreed.

I've moved down the list the less likely option that her death resulted from fatal head injuries from mere alcohol intoxication.

Culpability would seem to point to: from whom did the drug or drug cocktail originate? Who supplied this directly to LS? Where did she ingest it? (not ready to rule out that there were 2 different sources of different substances supplied to her)

I go back and forth between drug involvement and a sexual attack. I hear what you're saying about culpability, but there's also a huge risk in disposing of a body. The stakes would have to be pretty high, IMO.

But regarding the drugs you mention ... I'm getting the horrible feeling that these drugs are much more accessible than I realized. There was an arrest 1/2 mile from my home last week at 8:37 am midweek ... a time I like to think is safe to be on the road. Here's what was written about that suspect: "He told police, when asked, that he had “cocaine, benzos, Xanax, Clonapin, and heroin” in his system." Not sure if "he" was exaggerating, but that's a lot of mixed substances.

Also, what you say about not ruling out two different sources of different substances seems logical, but since these friend groups did seem to interact, maybe one source provided two or more different substances that were taken at distinctly different times, hence everything would lead back to that individual?

 

[VeryVeritas]

I was under the impression that CR/MB were roommates and friends, and JR/DB were friends, and that maybe MB/CR/JR were acquaintances.

I think friends are much more likely to do things for one another and have each other's back. I think when a friend tells you something, you are much more likely to believe it.

I think the possibility of them to:

1) hide her body, IF she died from some sort of drug ingested, knowingly or unknowingly, increases. I think you're much more likely to listen to your friends in a time of panic, they have some sense of trust in what the other is saying and suggesting, and (usually) you are friends with someone because you have some common beliefs or thoughts in common - not saying they have an inherent belief that this behavior is correct, but knowing the right words to say to sway friends would be useful in persuading them OR they might have had similar fears about what would happen if they got her help/called the police/etc.

2) pull it off successfully (and by successfully, I do not mean keep her hidden from everyone, but merely that they would be able to move her body physically from a to b). They know each other better and would have some idea of how to work together compared to mere acquaintances.

3) keep quiet. Friends check in with one another. They can persuade another to keep quiet when the other is freaking out and thinking about turning themselves. Turning themselves in would also no longer be just turning themselves in, it would be turning in your FRIEND too, so they would actually have an extra motive to keep quiet by default.

That's just how I perceive it, anyway.


How many friends did you keep in touch with after college/high school/etc.? I think for many college is a time when a mere acquaintance can be an extension of your "core group" of friends and you might even call them your "friend" to others. However, life after college, especially when you are working, is time consuming. At least two of them (JR & DB) are running this new company, which you would think would be more time consuming than a lot of other things. They make time to see MB though.

For me, my struggle has always been WHY JR would become involved with this mess by admitting he was the last to see LS. Most media and even the parents seem to really be most skeptical of CR, but I could never reconcile the fact that someone (JR) stepped in and admitted to seeing and being with her AFTER CR. Not only that, but he also (significantly) admitted to seeing her LEAVE 5N (and thus CR/MB, too).


I think, knowing that at least DB/JR/MB are friendly, MB/CR are friendly, and there seems to have been some kind of relationship between JR/CR, provides me at least with more reason to think that JR MIGHT step into the picture.

Additionally, just to point out how much of an outsider LS was that night, JR is the ONLY one reported to be her "friend" out of all of these men. And really, sometimes I even wonder if he was less her friend and more like HT's. For example, I have a friend who refers to a guy specifically as her "brother" (kind of like HT would describe JR, right?) and they are super close. I would hang out with them all the time and attend his parties, but I would never describe myself as a good friend of his, ya know?



That information doesn't add a lot to the discussion, but for me anyway, it provided more reasoning than JR might have gotten involved because he gave something to CR or LS that LS ingested knowingly or unknowingly. It also sheds some light on how DB could factor into things, and also more support that, in all likelihood, he was very much present that night. Two people he hangs out with TO THIS DAY were at 5N (MB & JR).

I would be interested in when LE learned this information and whether or not they searched HIS car or interviewed him. Based on how the others acted (refusing to speak to anyone), I doubt it.

Someone asked where they would hide a body. I think the dumpster is a possibility but rationally & logically (ironic, because it is NOT rational or logical to hide a body), hiding in the 5N dumpster seems a little silly because that would put the focus squarely on the 5N boys had she been found. The fact that DB has been rumored to have been there, his tweet, and the obvious friendship between at least DB/MB/JR at least makes it reasonable to think he might have and probably was present at least at one point during the night. If he was involved and left the next day, that honestly could mean LS could have been hidden anywhere between Indiana & Michigan.


All just my opinion.

I agree.

 

[VeryVeritas]

For quite a while now I have questioned the lack of suspicion directed toward DB and MB too for that matter. I'm also not convinced that there shouldn't be more scrutiny of BB, and any other of ZO's associates that might have been hanging around that night. Having realized that LS might have (still not so sure she could have though) left JR's and not been captured on camera is, for me, where everything falls apart. It's a question that can't be answered, but it's clearly the apex of the evening, either she left or she didn't but either way it was the defining moment. It's almost come to the point that everything up until then becomes of little consequence because the real issue is did she or didn't she walk away from JR's. We can all speculate until the end of time but as of right now, I've not come across one single fact that proves she did or she didn't walk away from 5N. I feel certain that the answer to that question will serve as the catalyst for finding her.


"Her accounts are now being published by Emmis a major broadcaster." I will so grateful if you could please point me in the direction of these publications? I'd love to read them.

Do you really think she could have left on foot (Barefoot actually)?
To me it's so unlikely... So how do you prove that she didn't leave? By proving she left by other means.

For example Sammi89 hypothesizes that someone who left the following day ditched her along the way between Indiana and Michigan. So, it's extremely plausible that she was placed in a temporary storage location that night, and then recovered the following day and then moved to a more permanent location. This way, those searching the immediate area would find nothing. By the time the search widened, she would have been long gone.

And as another tactical maneuver, consider that perhaps those being most cooperative could actually be more involved than those appearing uncooperative.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Are you of the opinion that someone specifically took LS and if so, what is your theory? Or are you of the opinion that this was a random abduction?

As someone mentioned, nothing is 100% certain. I agree wholeheartedly, but I would qualify that statement that although nothing is 100% certain in a situation like this, certain situations are more probable than others.

Random abductions are rare to begin with. I wonder sometimes if the random abduction theory is intensified on boards like this because so many other cases on this site truly are situations of random abductions.

I am of the opinion that, while possible, random abduction in THIS case is less probable.

First, JR claims to have performed this walking test. Anyone remember their college days of drinking? I'm a recent grad and after a night of partying, I don't think me OR my friends would be in the right frame of my mind to come up with the idea of a walking test before letting a friend go home, and I didn't do any of the harder drugs that are rumored to have been available that night.

JR paints a picture of an LS that was coherent enough to pass this "walking test." A coherent, walking LS is an LS that should have been able to scream or make some kind of loud noise. I'm not saying she might have been able to put up a fight, but who knows. No signs of a struggle were found or heard, apparently. No one claims to have seen LS. No one even claims to have seen suspicious activity, right? Except maybe for the rumored person carrying a girl over his shoulders.

I've thought about maybe, if she WAS able to walk, she might have been the victim of a hit and run. But again, nothing. No glass was said to be found in the roads, no blood, no skid marks, etc.

She's never seen again on camera.

SO, there is NO physical evidence, videos, OR witness accounts EXCEPT for a POI. I think that should be a HUGE red flag to at least remain skeptical.



Additionally, the parents have stated SEVERAL times that they do NOT think this was a random abduction. They have spoken with LE. LE may not be able to tell them EVERYTHING but I would hope they would at least be able to say whether a random abduction was the most likely answer. They have been a part of organized searches. They have their own PIs on the case who CAN tell them what they think is likely or unlikely. They have maintained that they don't think it was a random abduction. I find that to be very significant.


On another note, JW also seems to think the 5N boys were/are suspicious. His dad flew in early on in the case and together, his dad and JW barged into 5N and demanded to know what happened to LS. Additionally, JW threatened to have JR punched at a party several months later. I think his opinion is valuable too. I hope that before he went silent he at least explained why he reported her missing so quickly - I don't find it coincidence that he put 2+2 together so quickly. I don't mean that to say that I think he was involved, but that he heard something or knew something about these boys to arrive to that conclusion so quickly.

Also, look at the stark contrast the parents treat JW vs. the boys of 5N. The parents do not find the silence of JW surprising (maybe because it is hard on him, or maybe because significant others are usually at least suspected, especially those in rumored rocky relationships, or maybe specifically because CR and his lawyer implied significant others are usually involved?). They also state they think JW has shared what he knows of that night, and criticize the others for not sharing everything, if anything.


http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/st...d-the-truth-we-want-to-know-what-happened.sto

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/spierers-doubt-man-s-account-of-night-daughter-last-seen



I guess I'm also confused on what you think contacting DB would do? Of course he would not admit anything to you, if he is culpable.

I think the media never focused on DB because he was only found to be in Bloomington that night from a sleuther who saw his tweet. Additionally, there is more interest in the Bloomington area for obvious reasons and he was merely visiting. I think it was a stroke of luck that the media never focused on him or made him in any way accountable. It seems like some of the media is at least aware on some level, but they can't just force him into the spotlight unless he in some way inserts himself because that might open the newspapers to defamation suits.

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/circlecitizen/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10474985
(the media at least seems to be aware of DB ^^)

Great stuff. Thanks.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I go back and forth between drug involvement and a sexual attack. I hear what you're saying about culpability, but there's also a huge risk in disposing of a body. The stakes would have to be pretty high, IMO.

But regarding the drugs you mention ... I'm getting the horrible feeling that these drugs are much more accessible than I realized. There was an arrest 1/2 mile from my home last week at 8:37 am midweek ... a time I like to think is safe to be on the road. Here's what was written about that suspect: "He told police, when asked, that he had “cocaine, benzos, Xanax, Clonapin, and heroin” in his system." Not sure if "he" was exaggerating, but that's a lot of mixed substances.

Also, what you say about not ruling out two different sources of different substances seems logical, but since these friend groups did seem to interact, maybe one source provided two or more different substances that were taken at distinctly different times, hence everything would lead back to that individual?

Yes, prescription med trails and hotly tracked substances like Heroin, are more likely to lead directly to someone. But something like coke it would be much harder to point a finger at a single source, at least by itself. But if say the coke were deliberately customized or spiked with ecstasy for example, and then she took other substances, not realizing that what she had consumed was not just coke, then has even a small amount of alcohol, the effects start to multiple rapidly. I could see a scenario where at JR's perhaps she had consumed a couple of drinks, then was offered some blended coke off in one room and then later Klonopin out in the open for example. JR could have noticed this and wondered if she was going to be ok. If he knew earlier in the evening about her consuming things at his place and only connected those dots in his own brain, he might have felt rather culpable. Pretty tough proving something like that.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Do you really think she could have left on foot (Barefoot actually)?
To me it's so unlikely... So how do you prove that she didn't leave? By proving she left by other means.

For example Sammi89 hypothesizes that someone who left the following day ditched her along the way between Indiana and Michigan. So, it's extremely plausible that she was placed in a temporary storage location that night, and then recovered the following day and then moved to a more permanent location. This way, those searching the immediate area would find nothing. By the time the search widened, she would have been long gone.

And as another tactical maneuver, consider that perhaps those being most cooperative could actually be more involved than those appearing uncooperative.

No. Based on her apparent condition through and outside of the alley I don't believe she could have left on her own power. I was just pointing out that, for me, this is the point at which all speculation breaks down, it's brick wall. We can all believe wholeheartedly, and I do, that she wasn't capable of that walk but in the absence of cameras showing her somewhere along the way there is no way to know for certain. However given her verified condition and the absence of any witnesses claiming to have seen her after 4am, I think it's completely reasonable to assume that she did not leave JR's as he said she did. She definitely did leave, but certainly not in the way he says she did. I feel certain of that.

Going back the issue of "why' dispose of her body. While I'm not sure it makes any real difference one way or the other, I see what your saying about attempting to disclose which drugs she ingested. I'm not so sure though. I think I went over this a while back, and I still feel the same. I don't believe these guys were rattled by drug charges at all. I don't think any of them have every had any real consequences for their bad behavior before and I don't think they had any reason to assume that was going to change. I don't think, in the absence of something more, that a drug associated with being slipped into a girls drink being in her system would be enough for them to take the risk. Given the amount of people she would have come in contact with throughout that night it would have been much easier to feign shock and simply deny any involvement or knowledge of how the drug ended up in her system. Who could possibly prove otherwise? I believe when faced with the option of lying about drugs or lying about a dead body/missing girl, they would hands down choose the drugs. BUT, they didn't. So that fact alone, for me, indicates something more sinister. There is but one reason guys slip drugs like GHB into a girls drink. I can only speculate, but each action needs a cause and like you said, there are certain things that had to happen for LS to end up missing. When I remove the theory that any of the 5N boys would be afraid of answering, and simply lying about, the drugs in LS's bloodstream then I have to find another something that they would be sufficiently scared of because LS IS in fact missing. In my mind there is only one thing. Rape and murder in the commission of that rape. It doesn't matter if her death wasn't intentional, or even if it was a result of a sexual assault, she could have just as likely died from drugs, from a head injury, from Long QT or a combination of all of them. The boys could lie about where specific drugs came from and how they were introduced into LS's body, but they couldn't hide the fact she had been raped by this point and therefore they couldn't escape blame if they summoned medical help for her. This is why I think she is missing. I think if LS had died or become gravely ill for ANY reason that had the slightest bit of room for these boys to deny responsibility that she may still have be dead but she wouldn't be missing.
I could be wrong though.

 

[masootz]

at this point, given the information we know (and have discussed ad nauseum), isn't it fair to assume the big break in this case that may solve it would be finding her body? i don't think anyone believes she's still alive so we can assume whatever happened to her (drug overdose, kidnapping, aliens) she likely died that night and her body was likely disposed of somewhere in the area (maybe not within ten miles or twenty, but probably not in texas or lithuania). i think we'd have more luck coming up with theories of where she might be located based on what we think happened to her. my 2 cents.

 

[AbbeyR]

In the link posted above, Tony Gatto has blocked Chick Justin from bombarding him what he must have considered false information. Was he wrong? Her accounts are now being published by Emmis a major broadcaster.

By this, you mean The runcible spoon tweet and the story of a homeless man who heard a scream are mentioned in the article as (anonymous) 'rumors' that circulated on the internet? It also mentions the white truck and the mystery man, because it is a timeline of the information, rumors and false leads that came about during the first year Lauren was missing.

Why did the media print this calling it a rumor without checking it out.

I think it's that despite looking into it, media sources were not able to verify the information -- That's what makes these stories rumors as opposed to 'facts' or even witness accounts. I'm not really interested in revisiting crazy conspiracy theories involving the Bloomington PD, "Tallboy" etc., just pointing out that the point of this article is not to lend legitimacy to CJ's "account" but to try to sort out what is actually known from the rumors and speculation. The journalist describes how, with little 'real' information, the rumors and facts have become muddled together:

The police’s reluctance to share information didn’t help; reporters, bloggers, and online message-board trawlers quickly filled the void with leaks, rumors, and gossip—a constant stream of conjecture that, in some ways, has come to overshadow the facts of the case.

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

 

[AbbeyR]

APRIL 24, 2012

In response to the Spierer family’s published comments regarding his connection to the disappearance, Rossman sends an e-mail to IM. “I do not normally talk to reporters at all because of the exact reason of the lies that are being spread about me in articles such as those which just came out past few days,” he writes. “If you have some way to prove my name wouldn’t be slandered and what I say actually gets across and I am not portrayed in the terrible light the lying slanderous people connected to this case have portrayed me in, then I’d consider talking to you. Otherwise I have nothing to say and you can refer all questions to my lawyer Carl Salzmann.”

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/f...spx?ID=1712477

Charming.

This is the first time I have seen this quote. I wonder what he is referring to. I guess it's hard to be specific when you don't actually remember what you have done.

 

[VeryVeritas]

No. Based on her apparent condition through and outside of the alley I don't believe she could have left on her own power. I was just pointing out that, for me, this is the point at which all speculation breaks down, it's brick wall. We can all believe wholeheartedly, and I do, that she wasn't capable of that walk but in the absence of cameras showing her somewhere along the way there is no way to know for certain. However given her verified condition and the absence of any witnesses claiming to have seen her after 4am, I think it's completely reasonable to assume that she did not leave JR's as he said she did. She definitely did leave, but certainly not in the way he says she did. I feel certain of that.

Going back the issue of "why' dispose of her body. While I'm not sure it makes any real difference one way or the other, I see what your saying about attempting to disclose which drugs she ingested. I'm not so sure though. I think I went over this a while back, and I still feel the same. I don't believe these guys were rattled by drug charges at all. I don't think any of them have every had any real consequences for their bad behavior before and I don't think they had any reason to assume that was going to change. I don't think, in the absence of something more, that a drug associated with being slipped into a girls drink being in her system would be enough for them to take the risk. Given the amount of people she would have come in contact with throughout that night it would have been much easier to feign shock and simply deny any involvement or knowledge of how the drug ended up in her system. Who could possibly prove otherwise? I believe when faced with the option of lying about drugs or lying about a dead body/missing girl, they would hands down choose the drugs. BUT, they didn't. So that fact alone, for me, indicates something more sinister. There is but one reason guys slip drugs like GHB into a girls drink. I can only speculate, but each action needs a cause and like you said, there are certain things that had to happen for LS to end up missing. When I remove the theory that any of the 5N boys would be afraid of answering, and simply lying about, the drugs in LS's bloodstream then I have to find another something that they would be sufficiently scared of because LS IS in fact missing. In my mind there is only one thing. Rape and murder in the commission of that rape. It doesn't matter if her death wasn't intentional, or even if it was a result of a sexual assault, she could have just as likely died from drugs, from a head injury, from Long QT or a combination of all of them. The boys could lie about where specific drugs came from and how they were introduced into LS's body, but they couldn't hide the fact she had been raped by this point and therefore they couldn't escape blame if they summoned medical help for her. This is why I think she is missing. I think if LS had died or become gravely ill for ANY reason that had the slightest bit of room for these boys to deny responsibility that she may still have be dead but she wouldn't be missing.
I could be wrong though.

While I think it's possible that it was more than just drugs, Rape and Murder during rape seem progressively less likely. But it does remain a distinct possibility.

The thing is most people would be a lot less likely to cover up or conspire to rape and/or murder than cover for the use/supply of drugs. So, how do you visualize the circumstances of a rape? Do you suspect a gang rape? If not a gang rape then why would CR/MB/JR all lie for each other?

Even though I don't think it got to the point of rape, if it did, these 2 methods seem most likely to me:

1) CR manages to get LS back to CR/MB's and CR brings her to his bed. He rapes or attempts to rape(even though she may be unaware), and she dies in the process. Now MB is not viewing this as rape but doesn't want to be going down for this "girl gone wild" rape scenario. So he lies, maybe even lies to JR to cover his own A$$ but in the process it keeps CR out of hot water too. JR is called and they pin the guilt on him for the drugs she ingested at his place. So they all agree the body must be hidden. So again, this where person X (most likely JR's visitor) may have done the dirty work.
2) The other way I could see this happening is that CR makes it back to CR/MB's apt with her but LS is clearly in bad shape. MB insists that CR get her out of there and calls JR. She winds up over at JR's and CR may have actually then have been put to bed. At JR's it's not just her and JR alone... Perhaps Person X (visitor) is there. Person X/vistor gets her into one of those bedrooms at JR's and she dies during that rape. This time, only Person X / Visitor and JR know that she is dead and follow the same course with hiding the body as in #1.

The common element in both of these scenarios and for that matter the non-rape scenarios which seem more likely is that it seems none of our prime POI's CR/MB/JR, were in a position to vanish her body so thoroughly and quickly that night. I don't think they got lucky. They made a calculated decision to hide someone and so I don't think would be stupid enough to just toss her into the dumpster. (it is possible, just not seeming likely). So, I think at minimum 2 people know what happened. And so far the disposal seems to point more at person X / Visitor than the other 3.

 

[IUGrad84]

No. Based on her apparent condition through and outside of the alley I don't believe she could have left on her own power. I was just pointing out that, for me, this is the point at which all speculation breaks down, it's brick wall. We can all believe wholeheartedly, and I do, that she wasn't capable of that walk but in the absence of cameras showing her somewhere along the way there is no way to know for certain. However given her verified condition and the absence of any witnesses claiming to have seen her after 4am, I think it's completely reasonable to assume that she did not leave JR's as he said she did. She definitely did leave, but certainly not in the way he says she did. I feel certain of that.

Going back the issue of "why' dispose of her body. While I'm not sure it makes any real difference one way or the other, I see what your saying about attempting to disclose which drugs she ingested. I'm not so sure though. I think I went over this a while back, and I still feel the same. I don't believe these guys were rattled by drug charges at all. I don't think any of them have every had any real consequences for their bad behavior before and I don't think they had any reason to assume that was going to change. I don't think, in the absence of something more, that a drug associated with being slipped into a girls drink being in her system would be enough for them to take the risk. Given the amount of people she would have come in contact with throughout that night it would have been much easier to feign shock and simply deny any involvement or knowledge of how the drug ended up in her system. Who could possibly prove otherwise? I believe when faced with the option of lying about drugs or lying about a dead body/missing girl, they would hands down choose the drugs. BUT, they didn't. So that fact alone, for me, indicates something more sinister. There is but one reason guys slip drugs like GHB into a girls drink. I can only speculate, but each action needs a cause and like you said, there are certain things that had to happen for LS to end up missing. When I remove the theory that any of the 5N boys would be afraid of answering, and simply lying about, the drugs in LS's bloodstream then I have to find another something that they would be sufficiently scared of because LS IS in fact missing. In my mind there is only one thing. Rape and murder in the commission of that rape. It doesn't matter if her death wasn't intentional, or even if it was a result of a sexual assault, she could have just as likely died from drugs, from a head injury, from Long QT or a combination of all of them. The boys could lie about where specific drugs came from and how they were introduced into LS's body, but they couldn't hide the fact she had been raped by this point and therefore they couldn't escape blame if they summoned medical help for her. This is why I think she is missing. I think if LS had died or become gravely ill for ANY reason that had the slightest bit of room for these boys to deny responsibility that she may still have be dead but she wouldn't be missing.
I could be wrong though.

This is the same scenario and explanation that my youngest brother (Indiana County Cop with 25+ yrs of experience) shared with me back in July 2011.

 

[VeryVeritas]

at this point, given the information we know (and have discussed ad nauseum), isn't it fair to assume the big break in this case that may solve it would be finding her body? i don't think anyone believes she's still alive so we can assume whatever happened to her (drug overdose, kidnapping, aliens) she likely died that night and her body was likely disposed of somewhere in the area (maybe not within ten miles or twenty, but probably not in texas or lithuania). i think we'd have more luck coming up with theories of where she might be located based on what we think happened to her. my 2 cents.

If we have a good theory on what happened (say death around 3:30)
And given the stories CR/MB/JR gave...
We have a body moving out of the 5N area as early as 3:00, most likely around 3:30, not likely past 4:30. So there is this 1 to 1.5 hr window.
Not likely the body was moved out of the area by any of the 3 main POI's.
So, if this is all true, and Person X / Visitor / DB disposed of her, where do you think she would be? The tendency is to not get too far away from main highways. so, most likely within 1 to 2 miles of a Major interstate highway.
If it were for example the route going from Bloomington, to Indianapolis and then Michigan, this represents hundreds of miles of possibilities. Dumps, lakes, rivers, burning, concealment in debris, burial, cemetaries, etc... Hmm.... I think if I had 10,000 people we might find something in 10,000 years. Seems to me to find her body (if that's even possible anymore) it will probably take a very strong lead. Unfortunately in this day it seems very easy to make people disappear.

 

[Ros]

By this, you mean The runcible spoon tweet and the story of a homeless man who heard a scream are mentioned in the article as (anonymous) 'rumors' that circulated on the internet? It also mentions the white truck and the mystery man, because it is a timeline of the information, rumors and false leads that came about during the first year Lauren was missing.



I think it's that despite looking into it, media sources were not able to verify the information -- That's what makes these stories rumors as opposed to 'facts' or even witness accounts. I'm not really interested in revisiting crazy conspiracy theories involving the Bloomington PD, "Tallboy" etc., just pointing out that the point of this article is not to lend legitimacy to CJ's "account" but to try to sort out what is actually known from the rumors and speculation. The journalist describes how, with little 'real' information, the rumors and facts have become muddled together:



http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

The story about the homeless man who heard a scream originated with the HT. The homeless man may or may not have heard a scream, but the HT did do some investigating.

A reporter from the HT talked to the homeless man who heard a scream. Bob Zaltsberg briefly mentions that meeting in the article at the link below. The reporter told BPD about the meeting.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/09/news.qp-6103048.sto


CJ claimed that Bob Zaltsberg was the reporter, but he does not say so in the article.

There was some confusion about the homeless man or men. There was Tallboy who heard the scream, used to sleep on or near CJ's apartment (she brought him food), and this person is either dead or missing. There was also Road Dog who died soon after LS disappeared. Some people think they were the same person but others disagree.

 

[sammi89]

No. Based on her apparent condition through and outside of the alley I don't believe she could have left on her own power. I was just pointing out that, for me, this is the point at which all speculation breaks down, it's brick wall. We can all believe wholeheartedly, and I do, that she wasn't capable of that walk but in the absence of cameras showing her somewhere along the way there is no way to know for certain. However given her verified condition and the absence of any witnesses claiming to have seen her after 4am, I think it's completely reasonable to assume that she did not leave JR's as he said she did. She definitely did leave, but certainly not in the way he says she did. I feel certain of that.

Going back the issue of "why' dispose of her body. While I'm not sure it makes any real difference one way or the other, I see what your saying about attempting to disclose which drugs she ingested. I'm not so sure though. I think I went over this a while back, and I still feel the same. I don't believe these guys were rattled by drug charges at all. I don't think any of them have every had any real consequences for their bad behavior before and I don't think they had any reason to assume that was going to change. I don't think, in the absence of something more, that a drug associated with being slipped into a girls drink being in her system would be enough for them to take the risk. Given the amount of people she would have come in contact with throughout that night it would have been much easier to feign shock and simply deny any involvement or knowledge of how the drug ended up in her system. Who could possibly prove otherwise? I believe when faced with the option of lying about drugs or lying about a dead body/missing girl, they would hands down choose the drugs. BUT, they didn't. So that fact alone, for me, indicates something more sinister. There is but one reason guys slip drugs like GHB into a girls drink. I can only speculate, but each action needs a cause and like you said, there are certain things that had to happen for LS to end up missing. When I remove the theory that any of the 5N boys would be afraid of answering, and simply lying about, the drugs in LS's bloodstream then I have to find another something that they would be sufficiently scared of because LS IS in fact missing. In my mind there is only one thing. Rape and murder in the commission of that rape. It doesn't matter if her death wasn't intentional, or even if it was a result of a sexual assault, she could have just as likely died from drugs, from a head injury, from Long QT or a combination of all of them. The boys could lie about where specific drugs came from and how they were introduced into LS's body, but they couldn't hide the fact she had been raped by this point and therefore they couldn't escape blame if they summoned medical help for her. This is why I think she is missing. I think if LS had died or become gravely ill for ANY reason that had the slightest bit of room for these boys to deny responsibility that she may still have be dead but she wouldn't be missing.
I could be wrong though.

I have often thought about that. I really think a rape/sexual assault scenario would have two possible scenarios:
1) Stemming from a planned sexual assault (spiking her drink); or
2) LS willingly took some combination of drugs and these boys took advantage of her.

I think 2 possible outcomes are possible:
1) ONE of these boys planned to do it; or
2) This was a gang rape scenario where all the boys are involved. The one qualifier though is that I think it is plausible that one of JR OR DB might not have initially been involved but would have assisted in a cover up if their start-up business partner was worth the risk to them. Unlikely but possible.

Personally, I DO think this started with her drink being spiked and some level of awareness on all parties. I think she presented very obvious symptoms that are on par with date rape drugs (although, again, they are also common with other drugs, including alcohol alone):


drowsiness or light-headedness
difficulty concentrating
feeling confused or disorientated, particularly after waking up (if you have been asleep)
difficulty speaking, or slurring your words
loss of balance and finding it hard to move
lowered inhibitions
paranoia (a feeling of fear or distrust of others)
amnesia (memory loss) or a "black-out" of events (when you can't remember large sections of your evening)
temporary loss of body sensation (feeling like you are floating above your body, or having an "out of body" experience)
visual problems, particularly blurred vision
hallucinations (seeing, hearing or touching things that aren't there)
nausea and vomiting
unconsciousness

Date rape drugs also work quickly.
"within 20 minutes of being taken"

They can have some serious, scary symptoms that might even spook the one who gave the victim the spiked drink:
convulsions
loss of consciousness
loss of coordination
potentially fatal respiratory failure
seizures
coma, death

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Drink-spiking/Pages/Symptoms.aspx
http://www.idph.state.il.us/about/womenshealth/factsheets/date.htm

oh, and remember that really disturbing rumor of LS foaming at the mouth? Not too uncommon with GHB. If you Google it, you'll see a lot of personal accounts with people have foamed at the mouth after ingesting GHB. Although that is disturbing, I think it would be a disservice not to mention that some people DO take GHB willingly so even though LS presented symptoms of this sort of drug, it doesn't make it 100% certain she took it unwittingly (although I personally find that unlikely due to the effects on the respiratory system). Here's an article from what appears to be a legitimate source about a girl who is believed to have been drugged.

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/nort...s-warning-to-guard-your-glass-72703-19839294/



Just curious, those who think that there was an a sexual assault beyond anything drug-related, are you of the theory that this was a case of gang rape? I've been doing some basic Google searches and although I could find a lot of statistics on rape itself, it seemed that there wasn't much out there on gang rapes in college?

http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/college_campuses_and_rape.htm


I DO think this might have began with a spiked drink situation. They weren't at the bar very long, but they were there long enough that the effects should have started happening. From the link above, I was shocked to see that the victim's residence is used predominantly, but that actually fits given that they attempted to go back to LS' place first.

If true, I highly doubt murder was planned.

If her drink was spiked, that would be in line with her symptoms AND what her friends/parents have said --> LS did NOT do hard drugs. It also fits with the idea that LS would be unlikely to use harder drugs given that she KNEW she had a potentially serious health condition.

However, I still think, for others to be involved, that it would have to move beyond CR and somehow involve MB and AT LEAST DB or JR. That could be done in a couple different scenarios:

1. CR spikes drink. CR initially tries to take her home, has a run-in with boys who either a) recognize how badly off she is, b) recognize the symptoms, and/or c) CR has a reputation for this and these boys know it. They tell him to take her home, he mouths off, fight and drama ensue, and CR decides to peace out rather than deal with potential security/police when he has a very incoherent, not-21-yet LS that may or may not have had her drink spiked.

2. Some kind of sexual assaults happens.

- CR does it: (MB is aware that CR spiked her drink and now he has brought her home). LS becomes worse. He goes to get MB for help. MB goes to JR's because it is late, LS is in bad shape, and he doesn't necessarily want to involve LE. JR, who has DB over, and they argue about calling police because they are culpable in some way too (maybe they provided CR with the drug.). For whatever reason, they decide not to call or she dies in the process, leaving them with a body and rape evidence.

-MB does it: CR really was put to bed. Same scenario, minus CR. CR will go along with their decisions because he created the situation.

- MB/CR AND JR/DB - same scenario, just JR/DB are more culpable.

- MB/CR/JR/DB - all equally culpable.


Definitely leaves evidence. All would be culpable (to different degrees) if a situation presented itself where some provided drugs, some assaulted her, and all decided to not call for help.



I'm not sure if I necessarily think a sexual assault is totally necessary though. I think intent would suffice, regardless if it happened or not. For example:

DB visits. He brings the drugs with him.
JR and DB are talking to CR & CR buys then with both of them present. They are aware of what he is likely to use it for. Maybe they don't know it is for LS specifically, but whatever. There it is.
CR mentions it to MB.

As I've said before, I can definitely see the panic if she were to die during something like that. If you haven't, look up "Joey Upshaw"
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/upshaw-329167-joey-students.html

Fraternity Brother at OSU. Took GHB VOLUNTARILY at a frat party and showed symptoms very similar to LS, crashing into walls, unable to talk or walk, lips turning blue. They put him to bed to "sleep it off." When they realized something was wrong, they argued about calling the police because they were scared. They did, eventually, but he died. The tragedy? Had they called earlier, he might be alive today.

I see no reason to think that LS differs much in that respect. I think it is very questionable whether her behavior was due to drugs she voluntarily or involuntarily took (although, at least some were of her own choices, such as alcohol, I wouldn't argue that point).

I think it is certainly possible, and her behavior definitely makes me think she might have had something slipped into her drink, I'm not sure if it was even possible to progress to that point, depending on if she passed on before, or they recognized that she was reallyyyyyy badly off.


I really do wonder if there was a reputation/rumors about one or several of them spiking drinks because THAT is something I can see JW thinking, "omg, this might be really bad. I need to report her missing ASAP." It would explain why everyone was so worried very early on after a night of partying where it wouldn't be unheard of to lose your phone or sleep elsewhere (I do draw the line at her shoes ---> I think that IS extremely abnormal, even drunk. Maybe if she had had heels on and her feet hurt, but they were flats, right?)

 

[sammi89]

at this point, given the information we know (and have discussed ad nauseum), isn't it fair to assume the big break in this case that may solve it would be finding her body? i don't think anyone believes she's still alive so we can assume whatever happened to her (drug overdose, kidnapping, aliens) she likely died that night and her body was likely disposed of somewhere in the area (maybe not within ten miles or twenty, but probably not in texas or lithuania). i think we'd have more luck coming up with theories of where she might be located based on what we think happened to her. my 2 cents.

I mapped out directions from Bloomington to Ann Arbor. It would have taken DB 5 & 1/2 hours. If he went to West Bloomfield, add another hour. Both routes had a couple different ways and would have taken him near the Great Lakes too.

I think, if involved, she could certainly be along one of these routes. I hesitate to say I think it is probable because the searches have seemed to stay within Bloomington and I would think they have a reason for it?

There was a lot of construction at the time and I've always worried that she could have been placed in cement or something else.


Was the landfill searched during the summer? The only reason I cannot reasonably rule it out is because, if involved, the return of all the boys seems to show either
a) confidence she would not be found. That could be because she WAS in the landfill and the fact that she was not found made them confident they could return and no longer have to worry.

b) However, it could also mean that, if DB hid her somewhere on his way home, they also weren't AS worried they would be linked. Put another way, if she is somewhere else, there is ALWAYS the chance she could be found and it would be better to return and give the image they are innocent versus refuse to return and give the image they did not want to return.


I think it was VeryVeritas who pointed this out, but the timing is too precise for the latter half of the night. JR called DR at EXACTLY 4:15? And EXACTLY 15 minutes later, at 4:30, LS is walking out the door?


DB tweeted around 11ish. I can't find the tweet so I'm not sure if that was a nice, even number too. It does give a timeframe though. So if LS passed on at 3, after her last known location, that gives about 8 hours. I actually think that the calls might have been a last ditch effort to get her help, so that would make it around 4-4:30. That leaves 7. I don't think anything would have been done immediately so that's probably 1-3 hours of her possibly dying, arguing, planning, making decisions, etc. On the conservative side, that would give, at minimum, at least 4 hours before 11.


I don't know what the capabilities were on the old Twitter apps, but the current one allows you to switch users. I think it is impossible to sway with 100% certainty that the tweet was written by DB. Any of the boys could have logged in using his twitter handle and tweeted that. Additionally, that tweet is ONLY useful if the location was enabled, which would state exactly where he was. The tweet is pretty much useless if location was not enabled because he himself could have tweeted the same thing in AA to imply he was still in Bloomington, unconcerned and unaware of what had unfolded during the night. When questioned, he wouldn't have to admit he was well on his way home. They could even claim they went to bed and didn't wake up until around 11, therefore making it unlikely they would have had the time to dispose of a body.


Anyone remember the Monroe rumors? JR's phone supposedly sent some kind of signal and then there was that fire? Was that ever verified or said to be absolutely untrue? That, for me, always worried me too.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

I have often thought about that. I really think a rape/sexual assault scenario would have two possible scenarios:
1) Stemming from a planned sexual assault (spiking her drink); or
2) LS willingly took some combination of drugs and these boys took advantage of her.

I think 2 possible outcomes are possible:
1) ONE of these boys planned to do it; or
2) This was a gang rape scenario where all the boys are involved. The one qualifier though is that I think it is plausible that one of JR OR DB might not have initially been involved but would have assisted in a cover up if their start-up business partner was worth the risk to them. Unlikely but possible.

Personally, I DO think this started with her drink being spiked and some level of awareness on all parties. I think she presented very obvious symptoms that are on par with date rape drugs (although, again, they are also common with other drugs, including alcohol alone):


drowsiness or light-headedness
difficulty concentrating
feeling confused or disorientated, particularly after waking up (if you have been asleep)
difficulty speaking, or slurring your words
loss of balance and finding it hard to move
lowered inhibitions
paranoia (a feeling of fear or distrust of others)
amnesia (memory loss) or a "black-out" of events (when you can't remember large sections of your evening)
temporary loss of body sensation (feeling like you are floating above your body, or having an "out of body" experience)
visual problems, particularly blurred vision
hallucinations (seeing, hearing or touching things that aren't there)
nausea and vomiting
unconsciousness

Date rape drugs also work quickly.
"within 20 minutes of being taken"

They can have some serious, scary symptoms that might even spook the one who gave the victim the spiked drink:
convulsions
loss of consciousness
loss of coordination
potentially fatal respiratory failure
seizures
coma, death

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Drink-spiking/Pages/Symptoms.aspx
http://www.idph.state.il.us/about/womenshealth/factsheets/date.htm

oh, and remember that really disturbing rumor of LS foaming at the mouth? Not too uncommon with GHB. If you Google it, you'll see a lot of personal accounts with people have foamed at the mouth after ingesting GHB. Although that is disturbing, I think it would be a disservice not to mention that some people DO take GHB willingly so even though LS presented symptoms of this sort of drug, it doesn't make it 100% certain she took it unwittingly (although I personally find that unlikely due to the effects on the respiratory system). Here's an article from what appears to be a legitimate source about a girl who is believed to have been drugged.

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/nort...s-warning-to-guard-your-glass-72703-19839294/



Just curious, those who think that there was an a sexual assault beyond anything drug-related, are you of the theory that this was a case of gang rape? I've been doing some basic Google searches and although I could find a lot of statistics on rape itself, it seemed that there wasn't much out there on gang rapes in college?

http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/college_campuses_and_rape.htm


I DO think this might have began with a spiked drink situation. They weren't at the bar very long, but they were there long enough that the effects should have started happening. From the link above, I was shocked to see that the victim's residence is used predominantly, but that actually fits given that they attempted to go back to LS' place first.

If true, I highly doubt murder was planned.

If her drink was spiked, that would be in line with her symptoms AND what her friends/parents have said --> LS did NOT do hard drugs. It also fits with the idea that LS would be unlikely to use harder drugs given that she KNEW she had a potentially serious health condition.

However, I still think, for others to be involved, that it would have to move beyond CR and somehow involve MB and AT LEAST DB or JR. That could be done in a couple different scenarios:

1. CR spikes drink. CR initially tries to take her home, has a run-in with boys who either a) recognize how badly off she is, b) recognize the symptoms, and/or c) CR has a reputation for this and these boys know it. They tell him to take her home, he mouths off, fight and drama ensue, and CR decides to peace out rather than deal with potential security/police when he has a very incoherent, not-21-yet LS that may or may not have had her drink spiked.

2. Some kind of sexual assaults happens.

- CR does it: (MB is aware that CR spiked her drink and now he has brought her home). LS becomes worse. He goes to get MB for help. MB goes to JR's because it is late, LS is in bad shape, and he doesn't necessarily want to involve LE. JR, who has DB over, and they argue about calling police because they are culpable in some way too (maybe they provided CR with the drug.). For whatever reason, they decide not to call or she dies in the process, leaving them with a body and rape evidence.

-MB does it: CR really was put to bed. Same scenario, minus CR. CR will go along with their decisions because he created the situation.

- MB/CR AND JR/DB - same scenario, just JR/DB are more culpable.

- MB/CR/JR/DB - all equally culpable.


Definitely leaves evidence. All would be culpable (to different degrees) if a situation presented itself where some provided drugs, some assaulted her, and all decided to not call for help.



I'm not sure if I necessarily think a sexual assault is totally necessary though. I think intent would suffice, regardless if it happened or not. For example:

DB visits. He brings the drugs with him.
JR and DB are talking to CR & CR buys then with both of them present. They are aware of what he is likely to use it for. Maybe they don't know it is for LS specifically, but whatever. There it is.
CR mentions it to MB.

As I've said before, I can definitely see the panic if she were to die during something like that. If you haven't, look up "Joey Upshaw"
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/upshaw-329167-joey-students.html

Fraternity Brother at OSU. Took GHB VOLUNTARILY at a frat party and showed symptoms very similar to LS, crashing into walls, unable to talk or walk, lips turning blue. They put him to bed to "sleep it off." When they realized something was wrong, they argued about calling the police because they were scared. They did, eventually, but he died. The tragedy? Had they called earlier, he might be alive today.

I see no reason to think that LS differs much in that respect. I think it is very questionable whether her behavior was due to drugs she voluntarily or involuntarily took (although, at least some were of her own choices, such as alcohol, I wouldn't argue that point).

I think it is certainly possible, and her behavior definitely makes me think she might have had something slipped into her drink, I'm not sure if it was even possible to progress to that point, depending on if she passed on before, or they recognized that she was reallyyyyyy badly off.


I really do wonder if there was a reputation/rumors about one or several of them spiking drinks because THAT is something I can see JW thinking, "omg, this might be really bad. I need to report her missing ASAP." It would explain why everyone was so worried very early on after a night of partying where it wouldn't be unheard of to lose your phone or sleep elsewhere (I do draw the line at her shoes ---> I think that IS extremely abnormal, even drunk. Maybe if she had had heels on and her feet hurt, but they were flats, right?)

I think just being that these are frat boys makes it likely there was a "reputation" for this sort of thing. Frat houses are where this sort of thing was born and the term "date rape" originated. I actually haven't ever really thought through how this whole thing might have went down. I've just held out the general theory that she was drugged by someone, in my opinion the most likely person being CR, he no history with her and it's been said, although I don't know where the information came from, that he wanted to sleep with her. However now that there is a dialog about how it may have happened I can see all of these scenarios as possibilities. I don't think it was a gang rape situation though, I think it was a situation of maybe one of the other 5N boys provided assistance in obtaining the GHB for CR, or whoever, and the rest of them just turned their head knowing full well what was going down. Reading these possible scenarios has made me think about 2 things.
1. Could it be the that CR and LS were in his bed and she was passed out and he rapes her, passes out wakes up to find her dead OR she dies DURING the rape and that is why he pukes?
2. Could CR really be innocent and his amnesia is actually from sharing a spiked drink with LS? *I HIGHLY doubt this one. But?

Also, while rolling this around in my mind it occurs to me, we all know that LS is NOT there, she was definitely moved out of the area most likely very early, before 4:00-4:30 am. So, who of these POI's
a) had access to a vehicle
b) was sober enough to risk driving with a dead body in their vehicle

My answer to these questions is DB. IF, and it's a huge huge IF, but for sake of hashing it out, if DB was the one that spiked LS drink and then CR shared that drink with her, either on purpose or getting their beer bottles mixed up whatever, and he really does have a memory loss from that rather than ZO fist, then when MB took LS down to JRs, there was DB. Could JR have ducked out knowing that DB wanted to score with LS, then LS passes out and DB rapes her. Then JR has reason to cover - this has gone down in his house, maybe he supplied the GHB even and this is his business partner so if he doesn't cover for DB then his venture falls apart.

Holy *****. I've just talked myself into seeing DB as the prime suspect.
Eh...it's probably a bit off the wall, but I do wish I knew more information about DB and what, if any, his status is as a POI and what the status of any searches of his vehicle.