IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

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  • #241
I feel like we've had the poly conversation a million times here. No matter how much you try to spin in, it's totally straightforward to me.

* The POI were asked to take an FBI poly and refused (except DR)

* An FBI poly is in no way the same thing as a polygraph arranged by a defense lawyer. A private poly allows defense lawyers to hand select questions and information to provide at their own discretion, and as akh said, is only provided if the information does not incriminate their clients

*Any arguments about the legitimacy of a private poly are totally useless without knowing what was asked or what information they have chosen to provide.

* We do not know what was asked. Unless the questions are provided, we have no way of knowing what, if any, relevance the answers have.

= That the POI "Passed" a private poly means nothing.
 
  • #242
You know what else I find obnoxious? If you don't want to take a legitimate polygraph administered by law enforcement because you don't believe in the science behind it or something, then why not just say that? Instead, people always try to make it sound like they did take an LE polygraph or, if they are caught in the lie, move on to plan B: insisting a 'private' poly arranged by their lawyers is really the same thing. JR, JW, and MB have all done this.

Both strategies just make them look even more dishonest, IMO.
 
  • #243
I feel like we've had the poly conversation a million times here. No matter how much you try to spin in, it's totally straightforward to me.

* The POI were asked to take an FBI poly and refused (except DR)

* An FBI poly is in no way the same thing as a polygraph arranged by a defense lawyer as it is hand selecting questions and information to provide at their own discretion.

*Any arguments about the legitimacy of a private poly are totally useless anyway without knowing what was asked.

* We do not know what was asked

= That the POI "Passed" a private poly means nothing. :)

Yes it is a big circle because you want to believe a private poly means nothing when that couldn't be further from the truth (as far as LD's go anyway).

A private poly and a LE poly to determine what they say about the truth about any particular incident are absolutely equal. The only difference is the private poly most likely stays solely focused on truthfulness specifically involving the suspected crime while the LE poly could go all over the map trying to get the suspect on record about issues not on point. Drug use/dealing perhaps hypothetically.

While we don't know what was asked on the private poly it's not a stretch to assume it was thorough enough to clear the subject of lying or else this poly would never be mentioned. It would be pointless to provide poly results to LE if they weren't conclusive or were not thorough enough. You're trying to get LE and the prosecutor to "call off the dogs" and if your poly raises more questions than it answers then you're simply not going to use it and nobody will ever know about it. You'd be better off without it.

That is the normal scenario. So your assumption is flawed from the start because you want to assume it's not a 'real' poly and since we don't know what he was asked then it must've been vague and uninformative. It would be counter productive to the defense lawyer to provide a vague and uninformative polygraph result to LE.

What I am telling you is what is straight forward. What you are wanting to believe is what is trying to spin things. Either COULD be true, but your version would not be what is normal.

As I said before, it's quite possible that these private polys that you want to believe are worthless are actually being given quite a bit more weight than that by LE and the prosecutor. And it would not even be surprising if that is the case.
 
  • #244
While we don't know what was asked on the private poly it's not a stretch to assume it was thorough enough to clear the subject of lying or else this poly would never be mentioned.

That's ridiculous. It didn't clear them, because LE specifically made a point of telling the media the POI were not cleared AFTER they supposedly took these "private polygraphs" and "passed".

The poly's are mentioned to the MEDIA because defense lawyers want the public to believe their clients are cooperating.

Bottom line, without knowing what information they provided this whole topic is useless and goes nowhere. I'm not even interested in debating it, I find it totally pointless. It's not like this is even a controversial topic. Everyone knows an LE polygraph is not the same thing as a private polygraph.
 
  • #245
You know what else I find obnoxious? If you don't want to take a legitimate polygraph administered by law enforcement because you don't believe in the science behind it or something, then why not just say that? Instead, people always try to make it sound like they did take an LE polygraph or, if they are caught in the lie, move on to plan B: insisting a 'private' poly arranged by their lawyers is really the same thing. JR, JW, and MB have all done this.

Both strategies just make them look even more dishonest, IMO.

There's nothing obnoxious about it. It doesn't make anyone look more dishonest.

They could very well believe in the science behind it... or not...

The private poly could solely focus on the issue at hand: Were you involved in the disappearance of LS? All questions could be centered on that premise.

A LE poly could go very far afield from that line of questioning. It could be an attempt to get someone on record on any number of topics that may or may not be directly related. It could be used to gain leverage and self incrimination in something totally unrelated. Or something that could be used in civil charges. It could even show deception because a line of questioning might go into some area where the subject isn't comfortable but not actually be related to the crime at hand. Also, LE will employ tricks with pre and post questioning where a subject might think they are just chatting and off the record.

So ultimately what becomes the problem is if something you say gets twisted, taken out of context, or some area where you didn't measure as truthful causes LE to decide to question the entire validity of the test.

Or perhaps your nervousness and anxiety of being tested at all causes your test to be inconclusive (or worse), let alone if a line of questioning touches a nerve because you never expected questioning about a seemingly unrelated topic and that creates anxiety.

At least with a private poly you know if that happens then nobody will ever know about the test. Which actually could make the private poly a more valid test than the LE poly.

Meanwhile, with a LE poly you could be handing someone the keys to a civil case that could be brought more as a fishing trip or simply because they want to see 'someone' punished and they believe you to be guilty in one form or another so 'you'll do'. And with the lower standards in a civil case a negative finding against you in an emotional case wouldn't be that hard to predict.
 
  • #246
That's ridiculous. It didn't clear them, because LE specifically made a point of telling the media the POI were not cleared AFTER they supposedly took these "private polygraphs" and "passed".

I never said it 'cleared' them (for LE) and for that matter LE has said nobody has been cleared (except the white truck). I said the private LD tests might be carrying more weight than you want to believe.


The poly's are mentioned to the MEDIA because defense lawyers want the public to believe their clients are cooperating.

Well yeah... and the fact they passed them.

Bottom line, without knowing what information they provided this whole topic is useless and goes nowhere. I'm not even interested in debating it, I find it totally pointless. It's not like this is even a controversial topic. Everyone knows an LE polygraph is not the same thing as a private polygraph.

Right... except for the fact they took them and the info was provided to LE.... Meaning it's safe to assume that on point, they passed a LD saying they weren't involved in her disappearance.

And you're just wrong if you think there's a difference in a private poly and a LE poly.

If a subject passed a private poly they'd pass a LE poly on the same subject matter.

This whole LD angle is going nowhere because there's nothing here. That's why I said it is a red herring. To think the private LD angle is somehow an indication of guilt could not be further from the truth of the matter. If anything, it's exactly the opposite.

Of course I don't believe LD's to be infallible... But that's another discussion. But that someone took one and passed, private or otherwise, is not making anyone look guilty. LE knows that whether you do or not.
 
  • #247
Spin spin sugar ;)
 
  • #248
1) I didn't see reference to MB leaving the apartment. I'm wondering about details that explain his actions after 3:30am call to JR.

I also wonder why this part of the POI's stories is sketchy. Here's the quote about MB leaving his apartment and going to JR's. According to the PI's (June 2012):

At Rossman’s apartment, Beth, his neighbor, was still awake; he’d been drinking and finishing a paper for class.[CR vomits, MB puts him to bed...] [MB] then returned to the living room, where he said he tried to persuade Spierer to sleep over. But Spierer said she wanted to return to Smallwood, wrongly believing she left her phone with Rohn. Beth said he then phoned his neighbor, Rosenbaum, the host of the “pre-game” party who knew Spierer from their camp days, wanting him to take care of her.“Mike Beth says, ‘I don’t know her as well as Jay Rosenbaum knows her,’ ” said Ciravolo, whose firm interviewed Beth. “So he walks her next door, and he makes her Jay Rosenbaum’s problem.” Rosenbaum, who said he was home getting ready for bed at the time, told investigators that he received the call about 3:30 a.m...

They came over together, and Rosenbaum said he put on sweatclothes and opened the door. Spierer came carrying her fake ID and Smallwood key card, he said. “When Lauren walked into Rosenbaum’s apartment, he observed a very noticeable bruise under her eye,” the investigator wrote in a report summarizing his interview with Rosenbaum. “He stated he asked her what happened, and she responded, ‘I don’t know.’ ” Beth said he pressed her to sleep over at Rosenbaum’s. Initially, she sat on the couch and seemed agreeable, he said. Beth said that’s when he left Rosenbaum’s and returned to his apartment.

Earlier though, MB's lawyer said he didn't drink that night, that Lauren visited with MB at his apartment, and that he then watched her leave, implying that Lauren went to JR's alone and MB stayed home:

Chapman said that on the night of Spierer’s disappearance, she and Beth “visited for a while.” He described the two as friends. He said his client was not drinking or using illegal substances that evening and was home writing two papers for two classes (link)

Beth's lawyer, Ronald Chapman, told The Journal News on Saturday that Beth was home writing two papers for class, when Corey and Spierer arrived. "He made Corey go to bed," Chapman said. "He saw her walking out. That was the end of it. He wants her to be found and be OK, but he doesn't have any information that will lead to her discovery." (link)

They then went to Rossman's building, where Beth, his roommate, put him to bed, said Beth's lawyer, Ronald Chapman. Beth watched Spierer leave. She then went to Rosenbaum's apartment. (Link)


bbm
 
  • #249
Maybe he lied to his attorney about his drinking. Maybe the attorney misspoke. Maybe the attorney heard wrong. Maybe the attorney misremembered. Maybe the attorney lied. Or simply maybe the attorney just meant his client wasn't partying/drunk that night but not that he hadn't touched alcohol at all.

And maybe the PI got it wrong in his retelling.

But mainly... what does it matter whether he was drinking or not? Take away the arguably contradictory comment about drinking and it's the same basic story. It doesn't matter what seems to be implied because it could just be the implication was wrong and not the fault of MB (who isn't even the one actually speaking here and we can't question him). And the difference isn't really that striking anyway. Maybe the PI got a detail wrong. And either way, what does it matter? The PI's didn't seem to make a big deal out of it and you know they have access to all the same comments we do.

And once again...
“Mike Beth says, ‘I don’t know her as well as Jay Rosenbaum knows her,’ ” said Ciravolo, whose firm interviewed Beth
More cooperation from someone at 5N is being noted which is counter to the 'lack of cooperation' mantra that has become a distorted part of the narrative.
 
  • #250
A polygraph lie detector test should not ask more than 1 to 3 "relevant" questions and no more than 3 to 5 questions overall. 2 control questions and then 1 to (at most) 3 relevant questions. And the more questions asked, the less reliable the results. So to get the most accurate exam, it's 3 questions, Control Q 1, Control Q 2, money shot question.

And they certainly should not ask questions about other illegal activity--fishing expeditions would invalidate the polygraph results.

"Research statistics on polygraph accuracy are all based on a single-question single-issue exam, which is the most accurate format possible. As more questions are added to an exam, the overall accuracy of the exam goes down. While a single-question exam is the most accurate technique, some clients need to resolve more than one aspect of a case. In those situations, it is still not recommended to ask more than 3 relevant questions in a single exam, and these questions must be related to one another. Examiners can not "mix issues" in a polygraph exam. If you need to cover more than 3 relevant questions or need more than one issue covered, you will have to do more than one exam."
 
  • #251
How do we know LS was barefoot and without a cellphone? Is the only "evidence" of this from the stories that have come out of the mouths of the PsOI's?
I think her cellphone(s) has more to do with this story than what we realize. Depending on how Involved this group is/was in the on campus drug trade, you gotta think burner phones are playing a part here somewhere.
by CJ LOTZ IDS
POSTED AT 12:38 PM ON Jun. 7, 2011 (UPDATED AT 07:37 PM ON Jun. 7, 2011)

Lauren left Sports with a friend at 2:30 or 2:40 a.m. She left behind her cell phone and shoes, [BPD Lt. of Detectives Bill ] Parker said. The items are in police custody.
New Details: The Story of Lauren's Night

Timeline of Events: Lauren's Night and the Days that Followed
 
  • #252
A polygraph lie detector test should not ask more than 1 to 3 "relevant" questions and no more than 3 to 5 questions overall. 2 control questions and then 1 to (at most) 3 relevant questions. And the more questions asked, the less reliable the results. So to get the most accurate exam, it's 3 questions, Control Q 1, Control Q 2, money shot question.

And they certainly should not ask questions about other illegal activity--fishing expeditions would invalidate the polygraph results.

that certainly does not give me much confidence in a polygraph test. the more questions that are asked the less accurate they become? is that true?
that's like saying we are playing blackjack at the casino and the casino has a better chance of winning the first few hands. Of course , the more hands played , the better chance the player has of winning .... that's outrageous! !
 
  • #253
I also wonder why this part of the POI's stories is sketchy. Here's the quote about MB leaving his apartment and going to JR's. According to the PI's (June 2012):



Earlier though, MB's lawyer said he didn't drink that night, that Lauren visited with MB at his apartment, and that he then watched her leave, implying that Lauren went to JR's alone and MB stayed home:








bbm

Thanks, these are some important discrepancies.
Big difference seeing LS walk out the door, compared with actually walking her over to JR's sitting there for a while and then returning to his own apt.

Is it just me or... do JR's statements seem to make MB invisible?

Other big discrepancies previously reported would be
1) LS helping put CR to bed.
2) The statement by a lawyer on behalf of MB that LS wanted to continue to party.
3) And, I don't have links, but I'm recalling reports in the beginning that also said something about JR and others coming over to CR/MB's.

The part that rings true is that MB knew JR and LS had history, and MB wanted to make it JR's problem. There is also no question that MB called JR at 3:30. But have you seen how long this call lasted and what was said?

To me, a lot hinges on details during this time period.
 
  • #254
Thanks, these are some important discrepancies.
Big difference seeing LS walk out the door, compared with actually walking her over to JR's sitting there for a while and then returning to his own apt.

Is it just me or... do JR's statements seem to make MB invisible?

Other big discrepancies previously reported would be
1) LS helping put CR to bed.
2) The statement by a lawyer on behalf of MB that LS wanted to continue to party.
3) And, I don't have links, but I'm recalling reports in the beginning that also said something about JR and others coming over to CR/MB's.

The part that rings true is that MB knew JR and LS had history, and MB wanted to make it JR's problem. There is also no question that MB called JR at 3:30. But have you seen how long this call lasted and what was said?

To me, a lot hinges on details during this time period.

There's one other version ... and it's an even bigger discrepancy. This is from an article in Indiana Monthly, dated May 30, 2012 (another one-year later followup):

"Beth’s attorney, Ron Chapman (who also represents Rohn), tells IM that Beth, an IU student, stayed in all night to work on papers due that day. Chapman also confirms that Rossman was with Spierer when she came to the apartment, and that Beth helped Rossman into bed. Valerie Sokolova, a neighbor, tells IM that Beth has said he went upstairs and, when he returned, Spierer was gone. 'That was the last time Mike and Corey saw her,' says Sokolova."

What interests me is that what MB said is filtered through a neighbor here. So did he 1) see her walk out the door for JR's, 2) walk her over to JR's, or 3) do neither of the above, re: Sokolova? If 3) is true, what happened next? Did she stumble out on her own or was she taken? If 3) is a lie, why did he change his story? One thing it does is remove him (and CR) from the picture almost completely. In fact, it doesn't even allude to JR's ... OTOH, there is proof of a phone call.

I'd like a clear timeline as to what came first. Did the PIs talk to MB before the Indiana Monthly reporter talked to Sokolova? And who else interviewed Sokolova? LE must have. IMO, when (if) MB told her this seems critical. If he told her before JR claimed to be the last to see LS, could it explain why MB's story changed (to incorporate JR into it)? (BTW, she appears to still go to IU—Kelley School of Business. Also, FWIW, MB and CR appear to be on her FB friends list.)

PS: I'd appreciate any thoughts on this ... possible implications, etc.
 
  • #255
There's one other version ... and it's an even bigger discrepancy. This is from an article in Indiana Monthly, dated May 30, 2012 (another one-year later followup):

"Beth’s attorney, Ron Chapman (who also represents Rohn), tells IM that Beth, an IU student, stayed in all night to work on papers due that day. Chapman also confirms that Rossman was with Spierer when she came to the apartment, and that Beth helped Rossman into bed. Valerie Sokolova, a neighbor, tells IM that Beth has said he went upstairs and, when he returned, Spierer was gone. 'That was the last time Mike and Corey saw her,' says Sokolova."

What interests me is that what MB said is filtered through a neighbor here. So did he 1) see her walk out the door for JR's, 2) walk her over the JR's, or 3) do neither of the above, re: Sokolova? If 3) is true, what happened next? Did she stumble out on her own or was she taken? If 3) is a lie, why did he change his story? One thing it does is remove him (and CR) from the picture almost completely. In fact, it doesn't even allude to JR's ...

I'd like a clear timeline as to what came first. Did the PIs talk to MB before the Indiana Monthly reporter talked to Sokolova? And who else interviewed Sokolova? LE must have. IMO, when MB told her this seems critical. If he told her before JR claimed to be the last to see LS, could it explain why MB's story changed (to incorporate JR into it)? (BTW, she appears to still go to IU—Kelley School of Business. Also, FWIW, MB and CR appear to be on her FB friends list.)

PS: I'd appreciate any thoughts on this ... possible implications, etc.

And, the very first story we have from MB is from the witness at CVS, who says MB told him he watched Lauren walk down the street towards home. virtually the same story that became JR's. That was the day Lauren went missing. I'm guessing the VS account also came from the same time period when people were looking for Lauren.

By June 10, Chapman mentioned to the media that the lawyers for the POI at 5 N had all been in contact with each other, so it makes sense that after that the stories were fairly consistent.

To me, the differences in MB's story are a red flag -- All people wanted to know was what time and where he had last seen Lauren. Considering he was one of the last two people to see her, this is pretty important and it shouldn't have been that hard to keep it straight, IMO, but AFAIK he has never been clear about the time, or the place, or what happened when Lauren came back to 5 N.

It is possible that some of the discrepancy comes from others, but again, considering this is the one detail that witnesses and journalists would have been interested in, and the one thing Chapman was hired to speak about on behalf of MB, I find it unlikely that everyone was just being sloppy and making mistakes about things like where LS went the last time she was seen. I think it's more likely that it is what it appears to be: MB and JR didn't have their story straight on day 1, and the account that Chapman gave the media initially was -- like Salzman's early account of CR -- somewhere between misleading and a lie. MB's account (like CR's) was modified as more evidence came to light from the PIs.

So, while I realize this isn't a whole lot to go on, it's the most concrete thing that we have to suggest the stories of the POI may not be true. So what are the areas of contradiction?

- Lauren's condition:they initially acted like she was totally fine and even helping CR home, until the video was released that showed she was barely conscious

- Who saw Lauren leave: MB and JR both said they watched her walk off toward home (in separate stories from separate apartments without mentioning the other), then MB changed his story at least two more times, with the last version revealing he took Lauren over to JR's

- Drinking/ drugs: MB's lawyer made several statements that he didn't drink or do drugs that night, in one case saying he was 'stone cold sober'. The PI's said he was drinking. Another small point, but relevant only because his lawyer made a big deal about saying it in the first place. Was this just to emphasize that MB was the 'sober alibi' for CR? Or was this part of the attempt to make it seem like none of them were actually hanging out together that night?

- The POI being together: The POI's first stories didn't include each other at all (with the exception of MB putting CR to bed), giving the impression they weren't together that night and Lauren was just wandering alone from place to place. But others have said that MB and CR were at JR's before the bar, that JR was at at the bar, and through rumors, there was a suggestion that they all went back to JR's after Kilroys. So the night started with LS, DR, JR, MB, & CR at JR's and it sounds like it more or less ended the same way - with LS, JR, MB and possibly CR at JR's, and a phone call from JR to DR.

This post is getting too long, so I'll stop there but others might have more to add to the list of contradictions?

I'll anticipate the obvious response, and say that each of these might be explainable by filling in the holes or assuming other people made mistakes. Or we can take out all the details and say the stories basically are the same thing. After all, the details don't seem particularly important. Like who cares if MB took LS over to JR's vs. LS walking out alone while he was upstairs? If she left JR's anyway, why would this matter? But that's exactly why it's suspicious. If she had really left, why would they conceal and/or lie about these details? That's what leads me to believe they may be important and point to a different story...

If the POI had been willing to take LE polygraphs, I would be a lot more willing to overlook the contradictions in their stories. But as it stands now, that's all we have to go on, and they aren't making the POI look very credible, IMO.
 
  • #256
that certainly does not give me much confidence in a polygraph test. the more questions that are asked the less accurate they become? is that true?
that's like saying we are playing blackjack at the casino and the casino has a better chance of winning the first few hands. Of course , the more hands played , the better chance the player has of winning .... that's outrageous! !

I think the answer is kind of complicated. Polygraph tests are better thought of as an investigative tool, not a "lie detecting machine", so the accuracy depends on a bunch of factors, I think, including but not limited to the type of questions asked.

I was reading a while ago about "Concealed information" polygraph testing used in criminal investigations -- This is when LE gives questions in more of a multiple choice format, using knowledge that they have about a crime. (For example: Was the victim left in a field? in a lake? in a barn? The idea being that someone without any knowledge of a crime will respond in the same way to all because they don't know the answer, while the polygraph would show deception if the suspect knew the victim was left in a barn, for ex.) The article claimed that this kind of question is more reliable as the controls are independent, but I don't know much about it. TheSaint, do you know what I'm talking about? Is this method common or is the format you mentioned the standard? TIA

If polygraph questions are based on any knowledge at all obtained in an investigation, this is one of the reasons why a private polygraph would not be the same as one administered by LE.
 
  • #257
.... This post is getting too long, so I'll stop there but others might have more to add to the list of contradictions?

I'll anticipate the obvious response, and say that each of these might be explainable by filling in the holes or assuming other people made mistakes. Or we can take out all the details and say the stories basically are the same thing. After all, the details don't seem particularly important. Like who cares if MB took LS over to JR's vs. LS walking out alone while he was upstairs? If she left JR's anyway, why would this matter? But that's exactly why it's suspicious. If she had really left, why would they conceal and/or lie about these details? That's what leads me to believe they may be important and point to a different story...

If the POI had been willing to take LE polygraphs, I would be a lot more willing to overlook the contradictions in their stories. But as it stands now, that's all we have to go on, and they aren't making the POI look very credible, IMO.

Snipped by me. Re: assuming other people made mistakes. The attorneys shouldn't, since it's their job to speak for their clients (as you've noted). I also wonder what Sokolova would gain from saying what she did (nothing I can think of), given the circumstances.

IMO, contradictions could matter a lot, especially when it comes to providing each other with "alibis" of sorts, i.e., CR was passed out, MB was putting him to bed, JR was getting ready for bed—while LS allegedly wanted to party.

One other possible thing: It's been asked why/if JR would cover for CR/MB. But is it possible it's the other way around? Referring to another part of your post ... yes, it appears to me that they didn't have their stories straight and thus possibly manipulated them in one way or another to be more cohesive.

The one thing that couldn't be manipulated, though, would be the phone calls from MB/CR's to JR's and JR's to DR's and whomever's (???). Those would have to be accounted for. If LS left like MB allegedly told the neighbor, would he have still called JR's (to make her his problem)?
 
  • #258
Yes, totally agree about VS. This is MB's neighbor, so she knew him, she gave a statement to the media allowing her name to be published, and her account seems clear. I wish the IM article had said when that conversation took place!

The one thing that couldn't be manipulated, though, would be the phone calls from MB/CR's to JR's and JR's to DR's and whomever's (???). Those would have to be accounted for. If LS left like MB allegedly told the neighbor, would he have still called JR's (to make her his problem)?

Good point.

Also, if he did call JR's, and LS was perfectly capable of walking on her own, why did he call AND bring her over there? If she was a big enough "problem" that he had to take her the few steps to JR's, doesn't that also suggest she probably didn't walk away without stumbling shortly afterwards?
 
  • #259
...And either way, what does it matter? The PI's didn't seem to make a big deal out of it and you know they have access to all the same comments we do.

I just wanted to add that the PI actually do make a point of saying that the POI had contradicting stories. Not to mention that they are the ones who have exposed many of these contradictions and publicly questioned other elements of their accounts.
 
  • #260
I think the answer is kind of complicated. Polygraph tests are better thought of as an investigative tool, not a "lie detecting machine", so the accuracy depends on a bunch of factors, I think, including but not limited to the type of questions asked.

I was reading a while ago about "Concealed information" polygraph testing used in criminal investigations -- This is when LE gives questions in more of a multiple choice format, using knowledge that they have about a crime. (For example: Was the victim left in a field? in a lake? in a barn? The idea being that someone without any knowledge of a crime will respond in the same way to all because they don't know the answer, while the polygraph would show deception if the suspect knew the victim was left in a barn, for ex.) The article claimed that this kind of question is more reliable as the controls are independent, but I don't know much about it. TheSaint, do you know what I'm talking about? Is this method common or is the format you mentioned the standard? TIA

If polygraph questions are based on any knowledge at all obtained in an investigation, this is one of the reasons why a private polygraph would not be the same as one administered by LE.

thought you didn't want to debate this any more
 
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