IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[bessie]

respectfully snipped for focus

38. Spierer's abandonment in an intoxicated and disoriented state in the early morning hours of June 3, 2011 in an area known for criminal acts contributed to her disappearance, and presumed injuries and death

BBM. Abby, I know I have said people may have exaggerated her state, but I never said she wasn't intoxicated. I pasted #38 because it says what I have always said, she might've been able to walk, and they let her go into an
area known for criminal acts when she was defenseless.

Abbey, She was not unconscious. She managed to hold on to her key though the falls on 10th Street. She dropped her stuff after rising from a sitting position. on the other side of the block. The detective describes how she drops her stuff while getting up.
So, I agree with Ixchel about the exaggerated statements. And, I also agree with the statements made in the lawsuit.
Of course, I have been wrong myself plenty of times as well. We must be flexible in our theories as we get more details.

What about the video evidence that shows Lauren and CR "making their way" to 5N? And the video which shows Lauren falling down in Smallwood?

However, after they took the elevator down to the lobby, video shows Spierer stumbling across the floor, and Rossman helping her to her feet and out of the building.
On the next block, she sat down on a staircase and fell backward, slamming her head on the concrete step. The thud was loud enough for a young woman to hear it and ask whether she was all right.
According to the woman, Rossman replied, “She’s OK, I’ll take care of it.”
As Rossman and Spierer continued up the street, she fell hard and didn’t raise her hands to cushion the blow as her face hit the ground. A few steps later, she fell again.
They then ducked into an apartment complex, called 10th & College, and knocked on the door of four female students who were at the party earlier. No one answered, and they left. At this point, Rossman had Spierer slung across his back and was carrying her.
She later would drop her keys and student ID card before the two crossed a rocky lot to his apartment. “It was a combination of her staggering, him pulling and carrying her,” investigator Mike Ciravolo said.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

Street cameras between the Smallwood and the apartments she visited at 11th and Morton streets did capture additional footage of the 20-year-old student. This footage is “basically just her presence” going through those camera fields,” Parker said. She is with someone else in this video “making their way” to the apartment, Parker said.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/09/news.635642.sto

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6883145&postcount=476"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #16[/ame]

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

However, after they took the elevator down to the lobby, video shows Spierer stumbling across the floor, and Rossman helping her to her feet and out of the building.

On the next block, she sat down on a staircase and fell backward, slamming her head on the concrete step. The thud was loud enough for a young woman to hear it and ask whether she was all right.

According to the woman, Rossman replied, “She’s OK, I’ll take care of it.”
As Rossman and Spierer continued up the street, she fell hard and didn’t raise her hands to cushion the blow as her face hit the ground. A few steps later, she fell again.


They then ducked into an apartment complex, called 10th & College, and knocked on the door of four female students who were at the party earlier. No one answered, and they left. At this point, Rossman had Spierer slung across his back and was carrying her.


She later would drop her keys and student ID card before the two crossed a rocky lot to his apartment. “It was a combination of her staggering, him pulling and carrying her,” investigator Mike Ciravolo said.

This bit hurts so much to read. I don't know how her parents can handle this. I am a total stranger, never met Lauren, and I just want to grab her and protect her.

 

[deca]

I wonder if an argument could be made that they themselves were drinking and therefore unable to provide care? Not sure if I worded that right. Let's say a few people are drinking at someone's house and one of them leaves and dies in a car accident. If the host was himself intoxicated, how can he be expected to provide care? (taking age out of consideration here).

--
Since LS had a fake ID, did they boys ever establish that they KNEW she was under 21? I think that could be part of the defense if boys didn't already admit to knowing.
---

I know drinks were consumed at a couple places that night. I wonder if Kilroy's would have the ultimate responsibility for overserving? If person A comes into a bar and is buying the table drinks, isn't it the responsibility of the establishment to make sure everyone at the table is over 21 and no one is drunk? The bar might have the first responsibility since they are a professional establishment and are supposed to have training on this sort of thing.


I think there might be some interesting legal stuff coming to the public eye in this case.

 

[bessie]

respectfully snipped for focus

http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

The lohud link above is what I was referring to previously. I have not watched this video in several months and do not have time to watch again now. If someone has time to re-watch, feel free to correct me because I am working off of my recollection from several months ago:

I believe that in this video the PI's state that they have viewed the footage of Lauren and CR in the alley en route to 5N. The PI's describe Lauren falling on her face and failing to catch herself. They describe how she was struggling to function and CR throws her over his back and carries/drags her along. So if my recollection is correct then they have seen this footage. If so, then it seems to me that the Spierer's would also have been able to view the footage and would be able to use it in the civil suit. But I'm no lawyer!

There was also the account of Lauren sitting on some concrete steps and slumping over cracking her head. This is a witness account however, not video. Witnesses can testify in a civil trial as well, right? But we all know that eye-witnesses are often considered extremely unreliable.

JMO & all that.

You are correct. The description I quoted in my previous post is from the the article which accompanies the video. In the video, reporter Shawn Cohen recounts scenes from video at Smallwood and from the surveillance footage which captured Lauren and CR "making their way" to 5N.

Corey and Lauren took the elevator down to the lobby, and Lauren came stumbling out of the elevator. So Corey is the one who got punched, but Lauren was the one who, uh, at least in the video, who needed all the help.

After LS hits her head on the steps, the "thud" heard by a witness, Cohen goes on to say...

So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there and Lauren is seen falling face first to the ground, hitting her head. She didn't even put up her hands to block herself. Corey helped her to her feet, and then just a few steps later she crumbled again to the ground, and again Corey helps her up and they head up the street. So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there, and headed to an apartment building at 10th and College. Knock on the door of four girls who were partying with them that night, but no one's home.

P.I. Ciravolo then describes how Corey is seen carrying Lauren over his back while walking down the stairs as they leave the girls' apartment building. MC says Lauren is alive at this point, though maybe not so well. From there, Cohen says LS sits down once more, and this is where she drops her keys and ID card. There is no counter, but the above begins approximately after the first third of the video.
http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

Clearly, evidence which shows Lauren incapacitated includes more than witness statements. IAMAL either, but I don't see why the video footage would not be available as evidence in the civil case.

 

[imkeylime]

CR and JR were both 21, while Lauren was just 20. According to the suit, CR purchased drinks for Lauren at Kilroy's and JR provided alcohol at his party that evening. So I don't know much about duty of care... but I am thinking their ages and that they were involved with serving her would be factored in. Combined with their failure to get her medical care when she was incoherent and seemingly injured.

For example, I don't think it is the same situation as two 21 year old's both going out and essentially serving themselves (purchasing the alcohol themselves). I don't know how duty of care would work in that case.

Hopefully someone else who actually knows the facts can chime in.

IDK the particulars about duty of care for all the POIs. But the fact that CR bought alcohol for an already intoxicated 100-pound 20-year-old female should count for something, IMO. We don't know his intentions, or if he even remembers them, but if I was the Spierers, I would doubt him/them as well. Just saying.

And I think JR could be considered a "social host." Again, IDK the particulars about Bloomington/IN law. But in my state, social host laws would apply to this situation. OTOH, I'm not sure if MB would be as liable. But he may know what happened that night. I hope he takes this opportunity and makes the right choice.

 

[akh]

Clearly, evidence which shows Lauren incapacitated includes more than witness statements. IAMAL either, but I don't see why the video footage would not be available as evidence in the civil case.

I don't know the answer. Can LE be compelled to release evidence they have collected in the course of a criminal investigation (prior to bringing criminal charges against anyone)?

 

[akh]

It's JMO, but I think that even if the POI's "do not recall" anything, that the Spierer's will still see the civil suit through (if it is not thrown out.. I know someone said that may be possible). Ultimately because I believe Rob & Charlene do believe in the foundation of this type of suit, which is that if the boys had gotten Lauren some help she would be here today. IMO, I don't think they will back down.

OK, I see what you're saying... and I agree on point.

But this presumes she was a victim of an overdose or a medical issue which hasn't actually been established. What if she was the victim of a stalker (jilted suitor, jealous boyfriend, jealous girlfriend)? A victim of a random kidnapping?

Can the attorneys for 5N paint a convincing picture of that possibility? Wouldn't scenarios such as that change the duty of care argument?

Or will the evidence point to a situation where there's just no way she was able to function enough to stand, let alone walk, at 4:30AM?

 

[bx2]

P.I. Ciravolo then describes how Corey is seen carrying Lauren over his back while walking down the stairs as they leave the girls' apartment building.

We have no reason to doubt the account, but this route seems an odd choice.

They are walking north from SW towards T&C apartments... go up the stairs at the corner and get to one of the main doors of the complex. After not getting an answer, they decide to go back south to the corner and back down the stairs to the alley way entrance off 10th? Why not just keep walking north toward 5N through the arcade where there isn't even any stairs instead of doubling back completely out of the way?

 

[Jupiter812]

We have no reason to doubt the account, but this route seems an odd choice.

They are walking north from SW towards T&C apartments... go up the stairs at the corner and get to one of the main doors of the complex. After not getting an answer, they decide to go back south to the corner and back down the stairs to the alley way entrance off 10th? Why not just keep walking north toward 5N through the arcade where there isn't even any stairs instead of doubling back completely out of the way?

The alley is his usual route, so out of habit he takes it. Are there no stairs to descend to the sidewalk on the north side of the arcade?

 

[Jupiter812]

OK, I see what you're saying... and I agree on point.

But this presumes she was a victim of an overdose or a medical issue which hasn't actually been established. What if she was the victim of a stalker (jilted suitor, jealous boyfriend, jealous girlfriend)? A victim of a random kidnapping?

Can the attorneys for 5N paint a convincing picture of that possibility? Wouldn't scenarios such as that change the duty of care argument?

Or will the evidence point to a situation where there's just no way she was able to function enough to stand, let alone walk, at 4:30AM?

I know zilch about the legal standings of all this but it seems generally that CR and JR put her in harm's way.

 

[Jupiter812]

I don't know the answer. Can LE be compelled to release evidence they have collected in the course of a criminal investigation (prior to bringing criminal charges against anyone)?

Given their track record with previous cases and this one, they might be inclined to cooperate because the possibility of the parents winning a civil case is better than nothin'. Maybe they can even get props for assisting. ?

 

[bx2]

The alley is his usual route, so out of habit he takes it. Are there no stairs to descend to the sidewalk on the north side of the arcade?

There's 2 stairs at the north end that go up to the entry point of the same east/west alley where her purse was found as opposed to the dozen at the south end. Just seems strange to go out of the way if his destination was 5N.

 

[Jupiter812]

There's 2 stairs at the north end that go up to the entry point of the same east/west alley where her purse was found as opposed to the dozen at the south end. Just seems strange to go out of the way if his destination was 5N.

CR may not have been able to figure that out in his state. I say that both sarcastically and seriously. Plus the alley offers cover and it's nicely paved. Agree about the crazy stairs on the corner tho not to mention Waffle House.

 

[kimbella]

CR may not have been able to figure that out in his state. I say that both sarcastically and seriously. Plus the alley offers cover and it's nicely paved. Agree about the crazy stairs on the corner tho not to mention Waffle House.

BBM
Was it paved at the time though? On google map's street view, it's just gravel. (and you can see two security cameras) Of course I have no idea how long ago those street views were captured!

Paved or not, I agree that it offered cover and was probably CR's usual route.

 

[ktgirl]

12. Rosenbaum interacted with Spierer at the party and observed that she appeared intoxicated at that time

13. Spierer consumed alcohol supplied by Rosenbaum at the Rosenbaum party

16. Beth observed that Spierer was extremely intoxicated and witnessed Rossman encourage Spierer to join him at Kilroy's Sports bar … in order to consume more alcoholic beverages

19. At least one witnessed observed that as Spierer entered Kilroy's she appeared intoxicated, had trouble standing and relied on Rossman's assistance to walk.

20. At approximately 1:30 am… Rossman purchased, provided, and helped Spierer consume multiple additional beverages over the course of approximately one hour

21. At approximately 2:30 am… Spierer was observed leaving Kilroy's in an intoxicated state without her shoes or cellphone and returned with Rossman's assistance to the fifth floor of Smallwood Plaza, where her apartment was located

22. Shortly thereafter, Spierer was observed by multiple individuals in a distressed, incoherent and non-responsive state near the elevator on the first floor of the Smallwood Plaza with Rossman only

23. Rossman was confronted by these individuals for not assisting Spierer into her apartment.

24. Rossman engaged in a physical confrontation with one of these individuals

25. Rossman did not assist Spierer into her apartment… but was observed shortly thereafter assisting Spierer away from Smallwood..

26. Spierer was so intoxicated, incoherent and unable to properly function that Rossman was observed carrying Spierer slung across his back less than a block from his residence

[They return to 5N]

29. Beth found that Spierer was slurring her speech and was far more intoxicated than she had appeared earlier in the evening

30. Because of Spierer's disoriented and incapacitated condition, Beth was concerned for Spierer's well being and safety and attempted to convince Spierer to sleep on his and Rossman's couch

31. When Spierer asked to return to her apartment, rather than helping her return to her apartment, Beth escorted Spierer to Rosenbaum's residence

32. With Beth still present, Rosenbaum, expressing concern about Spierer's well being and safety, attempted to contact mutual friends to pick up Spierer and take her back to her apartment.

34. Unsuccessful at contacting others, Rosenbaum acknowledge that shortly thereafter he allowed Spierer to leave his residence on her own…

38. Spierer's abandonment in an intoxicated and disoriented state in the early morning hours of June 3, 2011 in an area known for criminal acts contributed to her disappearance, and presumed injuries and death

42. Rossman, Rosenbaum and Beth owed Spierer a duty of care.

43. Rossman and Rosenbaum's actions to supply Spierer with alcohol knowing that she was already extremely intoxicated to the point of incapacitation breached that duty of care

44. Further, Rossman, Rosenbaum and Beth breadched that duty tby failing to exercise reasonable care to ensure Spierer's safe return to her apartment.

45. Rossman, Rosenbaum and Beth's actions and omissions caused Spierer's disappearance that resulted in her injury and death

I am really wondering if by the time Rossman was carrying her one block from his home (#26 above), she wasn't already dead or in a coma from the alcohol, any drugs they may have done, her medical condition, and/or the recent head injuries/falls (or any combination of these things).

Maybe he freaked out and thought "Holy $$$$, she's dead or won't wake up!" What does he do? Maybe think "OMG, what do I do? Who do I ask for help? I'm in big trouble here!" and so he imemdiately goes to his friend Beth's. They decide to further enlist Rosenbaum's help. Then they somehow dispose of Lauren.

 

[bessie]

I am really wondering if by the time Rossman was carrying her one block from his home (#26 above), she wasn't already dead or in a coma from the alcohol, any drugs they may have done, her medical condition, and/or the recent head injuries/falls (or any combination of these things).

Maybe he freaked out and thought "Holy $$$$, she's dead or won't wake up!" What does he do? Maybe think "OMG, what do I do? Who do I ask for help? I'm in big trouble here!" and so he imemdiately goes to his friend Beth's. They decide to further enlist Rosenbaum's help. Then they somehow dispose of Lauren.

She was alive, according to PI's Dietl and Ciravolo who viewed the tape. See my post downthread.

 

[Ixchel13]

BBM
Was it paved at the time though? On google map's street view, it's just gravel. (and you can see two security cameras) Of course I have no idea how long ago those street views were captured!

Paved or not, I agree that it offered cover and was probably CR's usual route.

the alley is paved, but there's often rocks and broken glass in it. When you come out of it, the alley you cross and the field they had to traverse to get to JR's was very rocky, glass everywhere, and full of treacherous potholes. If Lauren was barefoot, NO WAY could she have walked the rest of the way, he would have to carry her. people have to take that in consideration as well.
However, none of that is there now. The only thing that survives the route they took is the initial 10th and College alley. Everything, and I mean everything, has been remodelled. There is no rocky alley and unpaved field/parking lot before you get to JR's. The back of 5N has been changed, it used to be dark and scary, now paved, buildings have been torn down/added, cameras installed, all the walkways have been remodelled that lead to behind 5N from both 11th and from College, the intersection of 11th and College has two new apt buildings, houses lining her supposed route after turning the corner have been torn down both on 11th and College.
Weird, right? Like in a movie. Starting from Kilroy's remodelling the back and sides to enlarge itself double, and starting to go north, Lauren's entire route to 5N has been remodelled. Also, same for the route to House Bar, starting north from the intersection, and then going down the alley to House Bar everything has been remodelled, I mean the alley itself has been completely remodelled. The entire crime scene area has been completely remodelled
and nothing looks as it did that night except the alley, and there were cameras there anyway.

 

[monkey222]

When LE first described the video, two yrs ago, the term..questionable activity...was used in reference to what was going on in the alley. My first thoughts were it was activity related to "making out" of some sorts, partaking in drugs, or relieving oneself. Or vomiting. Carrying or piggybacking someone did not enter my mind, nor would I term this questionable. How do we know that the above, with the exception of carrying did not occur? Dietl described her as very much alive in the alley video.

 

[Jupiter812]

Respectfully snipped

the alley is paved, but there's often rocks and broken glass in it. When you come out of it, the alley you cross and the field they had to traverse to get to JR's was very rocky, glass everywhere, and full of treacherous potholes. If Lauren was barefoot, NO WAY could she have walked the rest of the way, he would have to carry her. people have to take that in consideration as well.

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no evidence circumstantial or otherwise that they crossed gravel or the field. They could have taken the sidewalk that parallels the Village apts., where her wristlet/keys were put on the rail. This very short walk connects to another sidewalk on Morton. This would be the best route to 5N. Lohud published a map at one point indicating this as their route.

FWIW, I know I'm in the minority but I think that the descriptions of rocks and glass on the entire route are exaggerated. It's not "a walk in the park" but after she disappeared I walked it several times and would not characterize it as such. Seems that her physical state at this point in the evening would prevent her from walking upright and independently on any surface.

 

[Btown]

Been wondering why the defendants had the case moved from a County Court to a Federal Court, and what the new cause number is.

All I found is

dockets.justia.com 1:2013cv00991/

Anybody know what the Petition for Removal means? Was it the filing to move it to the Federal Court?

The suit was transferred June 20 from Monroe Circuit Court to Judge Tanya Walton Pratt of the U.S. Court for the Southern District of Indiana after a notice of removal was filed by the defendants, who noted the amount in controversy is likely to be greater than $75,000 and defendants live in various states: Rossman in Massachusetts, Rosenbaum in Michigan and Beth in New Jersey.

theindianalawyer.com/lauren-spierers-parents-sue

.