IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[doubtingthomas]

MC: And that's where we have a female witness who was leaving, uh, visiting a boy. She's not a college student, she's a little bit older. And she observed the young girl, which we now know to be Lauren, to tip over, while she was sitting on the top step, and hit her head on the concrete. And the boy was sitting a step or two below her.
(snipped by me)

Are we to assume that the female witness is the same person as the bar manager?

SC: So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there and Lauren is seen falling face first to the ground, hitting her head. She didn't even put up her hands to block herself. Corey helped her to her feet and then just a few steps later she crumbled again to the ground. And again, Corey helps her up and they head up the street. So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there and head into an apartment building at Tenth and College and knock on the door of four girls who were partying with them earlier in the night, but no one's home.(snipped by me)

Could this be the area north of 10th & College that Chuz shows on the map? This is also an allyway is it not? When I first heard this I assumed it was the same allyway they walked up from 10th street. Also, they have never said how many times they were seen on camera or which cameras they were seen on. They have only stated the last time they were seen on camera.

 

[doubtingthomas]

MC: A minute later, the door opening and them going back down and him helping her with that, kinda slung across his back.(snipped/bold/underline by me)

Who is them? Does this mean the witness and CR going back down the steps? Wouldn't the witness have opened the door and left? Unless the witness knew CR? Am I reading too much into this?

 

[Jacobite]

Two years ago, you wrote about a female witness who saw a messed up girl near Smallwood.
I think your witness is the only witness and is Tony Gatto's witness.. Can you get more information?

 

[doubtingthomas]

Two years ago, you wrote about a female witness who saw a messed up girl near Smallwood.
I think your witness is the only witness and is Tony Gatto's witness.. Can you get more information?

The person who told me about the witness has moved from Btown to Indy. I am still trying to get more info.

 

[Jupiter812]

MC: A minute later, the door opening and them going back down and him helping her with that, kinda slung across his back.(snipped/bold/underline by me)

Who is them? Does this mean the witness and CR going back down the steps? Wouldn't the witness have opened the door and left? Unless the witness knew CR? Am I reading too much into this?

FWIW I read "them" as being CR and Lauren.

They (CR and Lauren) went up as two and "they" becomes "them" going back down.

 

[bx2]

One thing that always struck me as the PIs being pretty disconnected from LE is that during this part of the video

MC: And that's where we have a female witness who was leaving, uh, visiting a boy. She's not a college student, she's a little bit older.

is BD asking someone off camera 2x "Did you send that in?" simultaneously.

I can only presume he's referring to sending it in to the tip line or to LE. I think we all like to believe that PIs have reviewed the same video that LE has access to, but I'm starting to have serious doubts that they have. Could all of the statements in the Lohud flash video be combining direct witness accounts with what others they have talked to (Spierer fam, POIs) have heard? Implications would be some of the little snippets that we accept as fact, such as LS falling down without using her hands to block the fall, to now be second-hand info like perhaps LE revealed to her family. Doesn't make it less true of course, if that is the case, but the overall narrative gets a little less reliable for me.

 

[Ixchel13]

Isn't there also a 10th street entrance to the building? Near the alley.

yes right in the middle, the stairs that lead into the courtyard, courtyard has at least two inner entrances.

Also, about the cameras, many of them seem misdirected. Only a few of them actually point right down to cover people walking on the the walkways of the apts. The cameras have been compromised.

 

[Ixchel13]

MC: A minute later, the door opening and them going back down and him helping her with that, kinda slung across his back.(snipped/bold/underline by me)

Who is them? Does this mean the witness and CR going back down the steps? Wouldn't the witness have opened the door and left? Unless the witness knew CR? Am I reading too much into this?

not at all. I've always thought the witness was involved. Also, there's that facebook video that shows AB making out with an older woman while the whole party watches. The party was in a 10th and College apt

The term witness is relative, as in, did this witness really call LE and report what she saw, or was she ID's on camera and basically had to tell the police what she saw.

I repeat, if Lauren did leave JR's, she would have to walk right by the people she had just attempted to drag out of bed, and if they are lying about being asleep like I think they are, then we have multiple very messed up people. And obviously, Lauren was adamant about getting to Zoe for some reason, and let's face it, it was not to buy drugs.

This whole thing about Lauren really wanting to hook up with CR might be a huge propaganda thing masking the opposite--maybe Jesse was trying to step
out on Lauren, or Lauren found out ZC was flirting with Jesse. And, maybe Zoe
picked up Lauren's phone at the pre-party at SW and that incensed Lauren.
Yes, I am going there because I am convinced that someone had Lauren's phone.

 

[akh]

One thing that always struck me as the PIs being pretty disconnected from LE is that during this part of the video



is BD asking someone off camera 2x "Did you send that in?" simultaneously.

I can only presume he's referring to sending it in to the tip line or to LE. I think we all like to believe that PIs have reviewed the same video that LE has access to, but I'm starting to have serious doubts that they have. Could all of the statements in the Lohud flash video be combining direct witness accounts with what others they have talked to (Spierer fam, POIs) have heard? Implications would be some of the little snippets that we accept as fact, such as LS falling down without using her hands to block the fall, to now be second-hand info like perhaps LE revealed to her family. Doesn't make it less true of course, if that is the case, but the overall narrative gets a little less reliable for me.

I have doubts that LE would share ANY video with PI's. If they've seen video then I think it would either have to be video they found before LE found it (or video LE missed in the first place), or LE made copies leaving the original behind (and how likely would that be? I don't know...) and the PI's were able to secure their own copies from the source.

I don't believe there would be much cooperation between LE and the PI's. Just like I don't believe there would be much cooperation from LE for the civil suit. LE is interested in preserving their evidence for a future trial. Maybe to a fault.

I could imagine the PI's getting some unofficial leaks from some in LE, but not as far as getting copies of videos.

IOW, if the PI's didn't get it independently, then they've not seen any videos LE has IMHO....

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

To me, the mystery surrounding LS and CR stopping by ZC's again centers around that "Why?" again. Given LS' condition at the time, it's kind of hard to surmise. I personally don't see it as a means to party, as I think CR would have preferred to be alone with her.

It seems like other options might be: 1) because CR needed a place for her to rest/crash or a place to try and revive her, 2) CR and/or LS wanted to score something or, conversely, find something, 3) CR and/or LS thought they were being followed and wanted to get out of plain sight, 4) CR and/or LS thought someone might be there whom they wanted/needed to see. Maybe somebody else can expand on this list or help make sense of it?

Maybe LS was trying to find her phone? I don't know though, because I kind of doubt she was coherent enough to miss any of the things she had lost. It is strange though, how they've released information about where they went and what time and some of what happened at these places, but they have never given any reasons for WHY they went to the places they went to in the first place. Maybe the "why" has more importance than some of the 'wheres' and 'whens'???

 

[imkeylime]

... This whole thing about Lauren really wanting to hook up with CR might be a huge propaganda thing masking the opposite--maybe Jesse was trying to step
out on Lauren, or Lauren found out ZC was flirting with Jesse. And, maybe Zoe
picked up Lauren's phone at the pre-party at SW and that incensed Lauren.
Yes, I am going there because I am convinced that someone had Lauren's phone.

Respectfully snipped by me. Hmmm ... if something was going on with JW and someone else (speculatively), it could account for some of the behavior that night and even afterward. For example, it could account for why LS didn't call JW back (i.e., perhaps she literally didn't want to) and even why she was allegedly partying harder than usual that night (perhaps she was upset). It could also explain why JW seems guilty of something (JMO).

 

[Chuz Life]

For anyone who is interested, I have updated my map and timeline again. If you want to follow along or help as the information develops, please click on my profile and then click on my "Lauren Spierer's Images" photo album.

Thanks.

 

[monkey222]

Thx Chuz for excellent map. What stands out is that LS and DR took only 3 min! from SW to 5N. They must have been full of their capacities. Either DR accompaniwd LS as a nice guy or he liked to walk or needed to touch base w 5N happenings..only stayed a few min. LS must have wanted to get to 5N.

 

[Chuz Life]

Thx Chuz for excellent map. What stands out is that LS and DR took only 3 min! from SW to 5N. They must have been full of their capacities. Either DR accompaniwd LS as a nice guy or he liked to walk or needed to touch base w 5N happenings..only stayed a few min. LS must have wanted to get to 5N.

I was in disbelief about how fast one location could be walked to from another. I verified some of the times with people who said they have actually walked those routes and I have also used this (I.U. provided) distance calculator.

I wanted to add something too.

The "~" symbol in front of a recorded time is to indicate an approximate time and the "@" symbol is to indicate an actual or recorded time.

I hope this helps with reading and understanding the map.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Pretty sure there is some confusion afoot here. I think the part of the map being referred to can be seen in Btown's post #262, but was edited to include the 2 cameras not included on the original, which is no longer visible.

This isn't Btown's map, as I think VV believes from post #281.

A few additonal comments that I hope will get everyone on the same page:

-there is "Tenth & College Apartments" and "Tenth & College Village", the shorthand for these dwellings that comes up here can often times lead to confusion.

-Zoe Camp's apartment is marked on there even though it is unknown which of the 2 main doors it is near

-there is no camera that covers the stairwell near the clock on the SE corner of the T&C Apts.

-Lohud flash video says they knocked on ZC door, Lohud ZC article says they rang, the same author of the article is the person talking, I'd consider the method of how they tried to contact ZC unknown to the public from that difference. However, in the video, the PI does indicate one minute elapsed from entering T&C to the door opening and CR/LS emerging.

-Lohud flash video is edited poorly. Abbey helpfully transcribed the key parts of the path here and I critiqued it here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7997946&postcount=588. I believe that the sloppy way they patched together events at Tenth & College Apartments mistakenly make it sound like there were two occasions in which they were there.

So, one visit to T&C it's caught on camera (we don't know exact time? LE does, wish they would update their timeline then... ) and it all takes place within 3 minutes correct? Then that puts to rest any sighting, cameras, witnesses or activity with LS or CR after LS's 2:51 am face down exit from the alley. The only exception being MB and JR.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Reading this over again makes it so clear that Lauren really was in terrible shape. I always think about the one report of her falling, but she fell several times and obviously could not walk herself:

- She fell on the floor at Smallwood coming out of the elevator, and CR carried her out.

- Then the witness sees and hears her tip over and smack her head on the concrete

- Then she gets up and falls flat on her face without putting her hands up to break her fall

- Then she 'crumbles to the ground' again.

This is all in how many minutes?...

It also seems like the Lohud video deliberately edits out the source -- i.e., whether she was seen by the witness and/or video at ZC's. That's why the wording is so awkward and might also be the reason for adding in the repeat soundclip. Perhaps LE and the PI's don't want the POI to know exactly when and where they have them on video...?

Absolutely! Ever since the PI video came out, and visualizing all of this, it's exactly the sense that I got. Before the PI video, there were a wide range of theories floating. But with these details, her Condition became very clear... and why the idea of her ever leaving 5N if she ever made it (not on her own two feet) does not make sense. And in particular MB's unbelievable characterizations of Lauren being in good shape. He said he and LS put CR to bed. Nonsense! Not in any report of MB's statements nor his lawyer's statements do they mention Lauren's serious injuries. But JR did...
So, you have to wonder if MB even saw her. If so, he didn't want to take a good look.

 

[VeryVeritas]

For anyone who is interested, I have updated my map and timeline again. If you want to follow along or help as the information develops, please click on my profile and then click on my "Lauren Spierer's Images" photo album.

Thanks.

Suggest adding the time (~3:00am) that AA and AR (at least I think those are the initials) who found / saw the wallet and keys. Would be interested to know the location of their apt (if known) in that building.

And perhaps the 3:30 call from MB and 4:15 calls from JR's and 4:30 (fictional) exit of LS

I've also always appreciated btowns maps... I'm wondering... if with all of the national security satellite photography going on... there should be very clear images available of this map area say around 3:00am and every 10 minute interval thereafter.

 

[monkey222]

VV..good point on adding AA and AR key wallet finders. From my memory only, I thought there was an oddity in the placing/ re -finding? of these items. Weren't there early reports of one of these guys seeing the item/s on way home..late 4ish??? And the other placing them on the rail? later..like at day break..5amish?? I just remember reading where they each saw the items at different times. Then put 2 and 2 together after it became known that she was missing. Does anyone recall this??

 

[AbbeyR]

Her keychain was found the next day near an alleyway behind a building about 100 yards from Rossman’s building.

IU student AJ Amin, 19, told The Journal News Friday that he saw a small
purple pouch with a gold key shortly before 3 am that morning on the
sidewalk near that building. He said he left it there and that a friend of
his put it on a railing when he saw it there a few hours later.

“I didn’t know they were hers,” said Amin, who had not yet given his account
to police.

(no longer online, but this was the link: http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...Spierer-not-last-person-her-?odyssey=nav|head)

 

[Ixchel13]

So, one visit to T&C it's caught on camera (we don't know exact time? LE does, wish they would update their timeline then... ) and it all takes place within 3 minutes correct? Then that puts to rest any sighting, cameras, witnesses or activity with LS or CR after LS's 2:51 am face down exit from the alley. The only exception being MB and JR.

BBM I don't think it puts anything after 2:51 to rest. Any number of people could have been involved, any number at all, especially the unnamed POI
in combination with any of the 5N POI, CR doesn't remember, but who knows what he doesn't/is trying not to remember.