IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[newmember]

i think it was speculated (but not confirmed) that if he was able to determine if she took her medicine, she kept it in one of those M-T-W-TH-FRI containers, showing what you take daily. example: http://www.forgettingthepill.com/products/large-twice-a-day-pill-organizer-with-adult-lock. That's never been confirmed (as far as I know) though so it's interesting to speculate if JW said that to bolster his story/reason for reporting her missing, LE obviously knows the container type.

Your post made me think (i think at some point we've touched on the meds but it may be helpful to revisit at this point): do we know what time LS took the medication? Correct me if I'm not being logical, but it must have been morning-early afternoon because JW was dropping his roommate off at a noon class, chaos ensues shortly after, LS is reported missing late afternoon. I would imagine LS secured some in her purse before going out if she maybe wasn't going to make it home in time to take her dose, similar to people who carry epi pens. College life is so random, the possibility of not just hooking up but sleepovers with other girls is SO common, I can't imagine she didn't usually have a dose with her if planning to not sleep at her apt. If you party late, coming home as late as 3PM either because you are sleeping it off or decide to grab brunch with people, is normal and is too late for LS to take her meds, according to the timeline we have.

What if LS's original plan was to sleep at home that night and she either planned on bringing CR to her place (verses his place)/the night just played out that way or CR/LS were planning to head back to CRs but needed to stop to get her medicine? CR wouldn't even need to know why she was stopping at her apt...girls can get picky, there are plenty of things she could "need" and is his state/since he liked LS's company, I don't think he was questioning her too much.

Shaken up after the altercation, they head to CRs and LS is thinking "ill make sure I get up and home in time" but gets to CRs, his vomiting/blacked out state kills the mood, she starts panicking she doesn't have her medication.

I've been open to the possibility she was just high out of her mind and wanted to go home for whatever reason but some people, understandably, are skeptical of that. IMO, something as important as this medication, could "click" enough in her messed up state, almost on a subconscious level, where she just knows she has to leave and is explaining this to MB/JR. She's telling MB she wants to party but really she wants to get him to walk her home for her meds. MB, not wanting her to walk home alone, is aware she knows JR/maybe thinks JR and some of his houseguests are still partying, so he takes LS there.

It seems most people did not know about her QT (and I'm speculating JR/CR/MB didnt), she's drugged out, and a lot of other drama took place that night, she's probably telling MB/JR all sorts of things that aren't really adding up. JR eventually gives up trying to understand the events of the evening and why she won't stay on his couch and unfortunately lets her leave.

I know this doesn't offer a new theory (still suggests she left JRs in a bad state and we have the debate if she did actually leave) but IMO, it gives us a (possible) specific reason LS insisted on leaving and a reason strong enough, that even a borderline blacked out person, could be insistent upon. From personal observation and just thinking about people's responses, if a tragic event or life threatening scenario comes up (such as heart meds and LS maybe realizing the worst time to delay taking them is after a night of drugs that are bad for anyone's heart), a high/drunk person can have a reaction almost like an adrenaline rush whereas they otherwise would have appeared in a completely incoherent state.

How would he know whether she took medicine or not? If you grab a pill bottle and there are 47 pills in it, how would you know whether there were 48 or not the day before?

Unless he was taking daily inventory for her (lol) I'd like an explanation of how he could possibly know whether she took any meds or not.

 

[akh]

The thing about the meds discussion is it's simply a huge hunk of speculation that has been tossed around by people defending JW and giving him the benefit of the doubt without an ounce of actual factual information backing it up. Nobody else gets this benefit of the doubt level.

While it's been confirmed, I believe, that she did in fact take medication, I don't think it's ever been confirmed how often she was supposed to take it or more importantly actually did take it (or if she was known to miss doses here and there for example). Let alone, whether she kept it in a daily dispenser.

It would be different if it was just a discussion point to throw a cold blanket on a JW witch hunt to keep suspicions from running wild, but typically it's been used as a hammer to clamp down on the discussion and line of thinking that 5N might be telling the truth overall and JW could be involved after all... Instead of considering them both more equally. And then it's entered the narrative to some point as if it might've had some rumor or factual basis when it was simply a WAG all along.

It's interesting that for the past several days the above has not happened. It used to be like clockwork that when JW's name came up it was quickly doused with benefit of the doubt speculation with no factual basis outside of guesses to explain his reasoning and actions in a positive light and a constant drumbeat to move the discussion back to 5N. Not discuss and compare, IMHO, but to move the discussion away from JW entirely.

It's refreshing to see the net widened a bit. Particularly since nothing new has developed with 5N and the existing information has been beaten to death and rehashed with nothing coming of it that is much different than what was there a year or more ago. A fresh look and a different angle cannot hurt IMO.

.02

 

[Ven]

It would be different if it was just a discussion point to throw a cold blanket on a JW witch hunt to keep suspicions from running wild, but typically it's been used as a hammer to clamp down on the discussion and line of thinking that 5N might be telling the truth overall and JW could be involved after all... Instead of considering them both more equally. And then it's entered the narrative to some point as if it might've had some rumor or factual basis when it was simply a WAG all along.

It's interesting that for the past several days the above has not happened. It used to be like clockwork that when JW's name came up it was quickly doused with benefit of the doubt speculation with no factual basis outside of guesses to explain his reasoning and actions in a positive light and a constant drumbeat to move the discussion back to 5N. Not discuss and compare, IMHO, but to move the discussion away from JW entirely.

It's refreshing to see the net widened a bit.

I know exactly what you mean akh. There are still questions about 5N, particularly whether LS could have ever left there able-bodied as JR told investigators. But I know exactly what you mean regarding people tirelessly trying to shift any attention away from JW. He deserves more than his fair share of scrutiny and I think in 3 years he's received very little.

As you said, it's refreshing to see the net widened a bit. Although it's possible that every answer in this case begins and ends at 5N, it's also possible that the case hasn't been solved because too much focus and too many resources have been aimed in the wrong direction.

 

[Ros]

I agree that JW is not above suspicion. That Facebook post about Agent Orange and an urge to kill might not have been totally innocent.

 

[Ven]

I agree that JW is not above suspicion. That Facebook post about Agent Orange and an urge to kill might not have been totally innocent.

What facebook post are you referring to? Sorry I haven't been able to follow every page in this case, I just check in from time to time.

 

[Ros]

What facebook post are you referring to? Sorry I haven't been able to follow every page in this case, I just check in from time to time.

. Shortly before LS disappeared, JW posted a quote from the movie Major Payne. See this link for the quote. As I recall JW quoted the portion starting with "War had made me very paranoid..."


http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0110443/quotes

The quote disappeared soon after LS disappeared.

 

[Vidocq]

Today, I tried to look at some pages from Tony Gatto's blog about this case, and they don't seem to be there. Is this a glitch, or have they not been there for a while?

 

[akh]

It would be interesting to know what Gatto's interest in this case was. Is he connected in some way with any of the families? Was there something about this case that interested him personally or did someone foot the bill on him coming to Bloomington and poking around? Not trying to imply he was involved but wondering about the purity of his reporting and if it was without bias or if it was maybe pushed in a certain direction by certain factions.

And it would be interesting to know why his reporting ended when it did. Particularly if he didn't pick up on any of the later happenings surrounding the case (and I don't think he did but I could be wrong).

 

[Ixchel13]

It would be interesting to know what Gatto's interest in this case was. Is he connected in some way with any of the families? Was there something about this case that interested him personally or did someone foot the bill on him coming to Bloomington and poking around? Not trying to imply he was involved but wondering about the purity of his reporting and if it was without bias or if it was maybe pushed in a certain direction by certain factions.

And it would be interesting to know why his reporting ended when it did. Particularly if he didn't pick up on any of the later happenings surrounding the case (and I don't think he did but I could be wrong).

In one of his posts here at the beginning, he was hinting that he would like to be hired as a PI. I think it might have been me that asked him if he was working on the case officially, and I think someone else told him he should try to be hired, etc. He replied something like he would do it if they asked him, etc.
you're very right, akh, in that he shaped some of the beginnings, if not most of them. As we recall, LE was completely tight-lipped and rumors were flowing. He was "reporting" from Kilroys, interviewing help and customers, not oddly, LE was ignoring these and people really thought they were getting something from TG. At that point, Kilroys closed down, IMO it was to stop this flow of info and before employees talked too much.
Don't forget GR and CJ. Both of them were tying the situation into a broad-spectrum LE conspiracy. For those two, no rumor was too far-fetched.
Their seriously flawed logic was that if LE won't say anything--it must be them. ridiculous.
But Gatto was spinning this case wildly, IMO.
OT, I was reading about ADHD meds last night. These meds are some of the least talked about abuse epidemics in our country. And the side effects sound much worse than cocaine abuse and crazy enough, even more than heroin! One of the newest adderall type drugs is Vyvanse.
The ad for vyvanse is crazy talk--they heartily encourage parents to put their kids over 6 on it so they can be a normal kid, but seem to focus on teens and young adults.
The side effects are many, from hallucinations and hearing voices, rapid heart beat, nausea, vomiting, etc. But one really weird pair of side effects are both suicidal and homicidal tendencies! wow what kind of idiot would take this kind of drug to reduce hyperactivity or, for what the students are using it for, to study and focus on writing papers and other school assignments. This advertisement had a "teen handbook" so I read it and it warned teens not to take an extra pill to work on an assignment.
Now who was it that said they were working on an assignment that night? We have often wondered why MB went along with this POI story,
maybe this was a motive. CR is out cold, LS is there and he has some adderall type drug ground up and ready to snort as he stays up and tries to focus on the paper writing. Or, maybe there was no paper, but, something tells me this guy was working that whole paper due scenario into the main scenario to give himself a reason to have the drug. Then, if he ever gets caught out for giving it to Lauren, he can always say she must have gotten into it when he was upstairs. The advertisement for this vyvase said sudden death can happen when this drug is taken by someone with any type of heart condition. It could have been that LS did a little bit of this and that and they all think the combo they provided make them all guilty, rightly so.
But then, a complication--CR's amnesia. He seems to be using that so he doesn't have to remember what happened right before and after the altercation. They might have been pursued by friends of JW and even possibly JW and these people also might feel responsible for Lauren's demise,
and if so, rightly so. But CR would be the bridge between these two factions, but the bridge has been destroyed by his amnesia. If he did remember, he might be able to connect the two factions and show that one needs the other to maintain silence.
Anyone else involved in the periphery, or someone close to them that has heard or figured out anything will be advised by the lawyers of their millionaire parents to not speak a word. They will have received the rationalizations that they can do nothing to help Lauren now and anything they say will only drag their parents, friends and potential employers and spouses into the arena and ruin their "good names".
All this is obviously MOO, IMO, JMO, speculation, and personal musing.

 

[Ixchel13]

just thought of something we could do. we could take a part of the official scenario, and analyze it it as to why it exists in the story, but from the minds of the POIs, not LE.

Take DR. He is touted as the only one cooperating, the only one who came forward. But it could be they have him on tape, coming and going from someone's residence, and he decided to "tell the truth" about the klonopin. That could only be because both he and Lauren received this
from another source, so the only thing DR could have been charged with is admitting to taking a controlled substance, he didn't provide the drug, IMO, so there's a dealer. If this is one of the POIs, or bf, it puts them in the scenario. Strange we hear all about from around midnight to 4:30, but where were all these people before that? DR and LS got the klonopin from someone. Easy for DR to bargain his way out of any trouble for just initially telling the truth about one of the substances provided, and exit himself out of the scenario. In a word, he narked right away..

 

[Vidocq]

... Now who was it that said they were working on an assignment that night? We have often wondered why MB went along with this POI story,
maybe this was a motive. CR is out cold, LS is there and he has some adderall type drug ground up and ready to snort as he stays up and tries to focus on the paper writing. Or, maybe there was no paper, but, something tells me this guy was working that whole paper due scenario into the main scenario to give himself a reason to have the drug. Then, if he ever gets caught out for giving it to Lauren, he can always say she must have gotten into it when he was upstairs. The advertisement for this vyvase said sudden death can happen when this drug is taken by someone with any type of heart condition. It could have been that LS did a little bit of this and that and they all think the combo they provided make them all guilty, rightly so.
But then, a complication--CR's amnesia. He seems to be using that so he doesn't have to remember what happened right before and after the altercation. They might have been pursued by friends of JW and even possibly JW and these people also might feel responsible for Lauren's demise,
and if so, rightly so. But CR would be the bridge between these two factions, but the bridge has been destroyed by his amnesia. If he did remember, he might be able to connect the two factions and show that one needs the other to maintain silence.
Anyone else involved in the periphery, or someone close to them that has heard or figured out anything will be advised by the lawyers of their millionaire parents to not speak a word. They will have received the rationalizations that they can do nothing to help Lauren now and anything they say will only drag their parents, friends and potential employers and spouses into the arena and ruin their "good names".
All this is obviously MOO, IMO, JMO, speculation, and personal musing.

I think this post is on all kinds of right tracks. Maybe CR encouraged Laruen to do some more Klonopin, perhaps purchased from ZO and company, during their brief trip up to Smallwood, between 2:30 and 2:42. Maybe that's what lead to the punch. Then, when CR gets Lauren back to his place, he gets some Adderall or whatever from MB to give to her. Maybe, and this is all speculation of course, but maybe CR had sex with her from around 3 to around 3:30, and then CR, passes out. Lauren is seen by MB stumbling out of the apartment, toward Smallwood. MB calls JR, who, let's hypothesize, is at ZO's apartment with, perhaps AB, BB, and mystery man, to tell them Lauren is heading past them. Maybe ZO is still at Smallwood. Mystery Man intercepts Lauren as she passes by, and sits down on the South-East steps with her. At 3:38, she is seen by the bar-manager witness who is leaving from visiting a friend after work.

Soon thereafter, Mystery Man takes Lauren up to the third floor of Tenth & College, I assume using the elevator in the parking garage. Lauren dies up there. The guys in ZO's apartment, hypothetically, let's say have a thriving drug business, and so can't afford to have an overdosed young woman connected to their apartment. Her body is taken back down the elevator, put in a vehicle, and driven off. The boys on the third floor say to MB and JR, "Look, she was never in our apartment. Tell the cops she was last seen at your place, and, for good measure, tell them she was there until 4:30, just to make sure no one thinks she was here between 3:30 and 4:30". Now everyone has a reason to keep quiet. And anyone who wasn't directly involved who might know something is afraid of the drug dealers (again supposing hypothetically that they were in fact drug dealers) or afraid of the millionaire parents.

 

[Ixchel13]

I think this post is on all kinds of right tracks. Maybe CR encouraged Laruen to do some more Klonopin, perhaps purchased from ZO and company, during their brief trip up to Smallwood, between 2:30 and 2:42. Maybe that's what lead to the punch. Then, when CR gets Lauren back to his place, he gets some Adderall or whatever from MB to give to her. Maybe, and this is all speculation of course, but maybe CR had sex with her from around 3 to around 3:30, and then CR, passes out. Lauren is seen by MB stumbling out of the apartment, toward Smallwood. MB calls JR, who, let's hypothesize, is at ZO's apartment with, perhaps AB, BB, and mystery man, to tell them Lauren is heading past them. Maybe ZO is still at Smallwood. Mystery Man intercepts Lauren as she passes by, and sits down on the South-East steps with her. At 3:38, she is seen by the bar-manager witness who is leaving from visiting a friend after work.

Soon thereafter, Mystery Man takes Lauren up to the third floor of Tenth & College, I assume using the elevator in the parking garage. Lauren dies up there. The guys in ZO's apartment, hypothetically, let's say have a thriving drug business, and so can't afford to have an overdosed young woman connected to their apartment. Her body is taken back down the elevator, put in a vehicle, and driven off. The boys on the third floor say to MB and JR, "Look, she was never in our apartment. Tell the cops she was last seen at your place, and, for good measure, tell them she was there until 4:30, just to make sure no one thinks she was here between 3:30 and 4:30". Now everyone has a reason to keep quiet. And anyone who wasn't directly involved who might know something is afraid of the drug dealers (again supposing hypothetically that they were in fact drug dealers) or afraid of the millionaire parents.

B] BBM while I agree with most of your theory, the bolded part is all you, not me. your theory represents a working theory that does not necessarily just have to include the 5N trio, and provides reasons why this case would produce unlikely allies. People "had" things on each other
that had nothing and everything to do with the case. well done!

 

[Ros]

It would be interesting to know what Gatto's interest in this case was. Is he connected in some way with any of the families? Was there something about this case that interested him personally or did someone foot the bill on him coming to Bloomington and poking around? Not trying to imply he was involved but wondering about the purity of his reporting and if it was without bias or if it was maybe pushed in a certain direction by certain factions.

And it would be interesting to know why his reporting ended when it did. Particularly if he didn't pick up on any of the later happenings surrounding the case (and I don't think he did but I could be wrong).

How many allegations written by TG were confirmed by independent sources?

 

[Vidocq]

Quick unrelated question: when did the building up, where the Gravel Lot used to be?

 

[Vidocq]

Nevermind: Based on looking into it, it looks like the building went up in 2013. Sounds about right.

 

[akh]

Quick unrelated question: when did the building up, where the Gravel Lot used to be?

The biggest thing I recall Gatto breaking was the bartender/manager witness and introducing the idea of a mystery man into the narrative. Without him I'm not sure this account would even exist in the public at all. I think we'd be in the dark about this witness, let alone any kind of talk of a mystery man. Even if you subscribe to the notion that the mystery man was in fact CR after all (even though Gatto said she didn't recognize him as CR when shown photos), and that she must've been wrong about the time, it's still out there and it puts a question mark into everything about the timeline and what we think we know. Which this would also indicate we easily could be in the dark about other witnesses that have come forward.

If she was wrong about the time, how could that be? Maybe there's a simple explanation and if so it shouldn't be hard to figure out. From the outside looking in it seems easier for her to be wrong and it was later than she thought, not earlier... considering I think the story is she'd just gotten off work. She should know what time she left work. But again, nobody is talking so there's not really anything to do but wonder. If we have to discredit part of her story and say it can't be right then we have to have reservations about all of her story (until those can be officially cleared up anyway... which appears not to be happening any time soon).

 

[Ros]

The biggest thing I recall Gatto breaking was the bartender/manager witness and introducing the idea of a mystery man into the narrative. Without him I'm not sure this account would even exist in the public at all. I think we'd be in the dark about this witness, let alone any kind of talk of a mystery man. Even if you subscribe to the notion that the mystery man was in fact CR after all (even though Gatto said she didn't recognize him as CR when shown photos), and that she must've been wrong about the time, it's still out there and it puts a question mark into everything about the timeline and what we think we know. Which this would also indicate we easily could be in the dark about other witnesses that have come forward.

If she was wrong about the time, how could that be? Maybe there's a simple explanation and if so it shouldn't be hard to figure out. From the outside looking in it seems easier for her to be wrong and it was later than she thought, not earlier... considering I think the story is she'd just gotten off work. She should know what time she left work. But again, nobody is talking so there's not really anything to do but wonder. If we have to discredit part of her story and say it can't be right then we have to have reservations about all of her story (until those can be officially cleared up anyway... which appears not to be happening any time soon).

For anyone wondering if TG might have connections to other persons in this case, As I understand the situation, LS, JW, and TG were all from NY, CR was from Massachusetts, JR from MI, and MB from NJ.

 

[Mahouston69]

The biggest thing I recall Gatto breaking was the bartender/manager witness and introducing the idea of a mystery man into the narrative. Without him I'm not sure this account would even exist in the public at all. I think we'd be in the dark about this witness, let alone any kind of talk of a mystery man. Even if you subscribe to the notion that the mystery man was in fact CR after all (even though Gatto said she didn't recognize him as CR when shown photos), and that she must've been wrong about the time, it's still out there and it puts a question mark into everything about the timeline and what we think we know. Which this would also indicate we easily could be in the dark about other witnesses that have come forward.

If she was wrong about the time, how could that be? Maybe there's a simple explanation and if so it shouldn't be hard to figure out. From the outside looking in it seems easier for her to be wrong and it was later than she thought, not earlier... considering I think the story is she'd just gotten off work. She should know what time she left work. But again, nobody is talking so there's not really anything to do but wonder. If we have to discredit part of her story and say it can't be right then we have to have reservations about all of her story (until those can be officially cleared up anyway... which appears not to be happening any time soon).

The time thing has always bugged me because of the debate (http://www.timeanddate.com/time/us/indiana-time.html) and split time zones, and the springing forward for day light savings time. I don't happen to think that LS spent and hour and half at JRs, or CRs. I think the mystery man could have been JW. I think JRs watch was on NY time (Eastern Standard time) and most of the city was on Eastern Standard time as they voted to be in Monroe County back in 2007? But, I have this nagging feeling that that clock was never set or adjusted. Can't prove it. Anybody want to go see what time it says right now?

 

[Ros]

If the clock had not been moved forward, the correct time would have been 4:48 rather than 3:38.

 

[akh]

And of course that time (assuming you meant 4:38AM) would fit perfectly with her leaving 5N at approx 4:30AM and then more going on than the official timeline states.
But leaves open the question of how that witness got the 3:38 (or whatever it was) time in the first place. If it was based more on time leaving work, etc. then seeing a clock that hadn't accounted for DST wouldn't really explain it.

If the actions described are seen on video, just not at the time the witness said, then that also leads to question marks.

But I never really though the LE response to this witness and the statement was anything other than double talk anyway. They chose a lot of words to not really say anything definitive at all. They said it in such a way that I always felt it was deliberate to not actually answer questions about this discrepancy in the timeline or address it in the timeline.