Interesting ...

[GuruJosh]

It is not possible that any individual except p.r. wrote the ransom note.-Donald Foster ......an expert who examined the r.n.

Tom Miller another expert who examined the r.n. "patsy probably wrote the r.n."

Cina Wong " " " " " " believes patsy probably wrote it.

I don't know that's 3 experts and they take into account the way the note was written and the content.

Gideon Epstein too. 100% certain P wrote it.

 

[narlacat]

I just went and had a look and I cant see anything to back up my statement lol. You gotta watch me I'm a wealth of misinformation alot of times!
I was getting confused the RN and the topic of the sexual abuse. I know we have alot of differing opinions there.
I dont know how believable Donald Foster is though. Didnt he think Jameson was a 20 yr old homicidal male that was the killer at one stage??

 

[duffy]

Oh Narlacat, now I'm exhausted! lol This homicide weaves in and out, up and down. out and around. You try to find the experts who didn't believe p.r. wrote the note and I'll try to find out about Donald Foster. Deal?


Hey Josh, who is Gideon Epstein? I didn't see him in my searches but would like to check it out. Have a link?

I don't have to be an expert to be completely convinced p.r. wrote the note. When I read that note I hear p.r. voice speaking the words. It sounds just like her to me.

However, I will rely on the experts. lol

 

[Toltec]

John Ramsey told LE that the suitcase "is not usually kept there"...Patsy told LE the last time she saw the suitcase, it was in the boiler room.....or was it?

The suitcase could have come from JAR's room, being that Patsy was in his bedroom packing suitcases Christmas night. She was also in the basement Christmas night wrapping presents. She was also in the wine cellar retrieving Christmas presents Christmas Eve...

All these events lead to one person...Patsy.

I had a question for you all....if Patsy was packing clothes for the trip to Disney's Big Red Boat, wouldn't she be in and out of Burke and JonBenet's room retrieving clothes?

 

[narlacat]

I thought Patsy had already packed for their trip before that night.

 

[UKGuy]

John Ramsey told LE that the suitcase "is not usually kept there"...Patsy told LE the last time she saw the suitcase, it was in the boiler room.....or was it?

The suitcase could have come from JAR's room, being that Patsy was in his bedroom packing suitcases Christmas night. She was also in the basement Christmas night wrapping presents. She was also in the wine cellar retrieving Christmas presents Christmas Eve...

All these events lead to one person...Patsy.

I had a question for you all....if Patsy was packing clothes for the trip to Disney's Big Red Boat, wouldn't she be in and out of Burke and JonBenet's room retrieving clothes?

Toltec,

At some point yes, and in between gathering those items do you think she may have had time to pick up the soiled underwear say in JonBenet's bathroom, bedroom, and anywhere else? There is mention of her washing a soiled jumpsuit that fateful morning?

 

[GuruJosh]

Hey Josh, who is Gideon Epstein? I didn't see him in my searches but would like to check it out. Have a link?

sure do...:
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/05172002Depo-GideonEpstein.htm

Q: What is your degree of certainty yourself as you sit here today that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?
A. I am absolutely certain that she wrote the note.
Q. Is that 60 percent certain?
A. No, that's 100 percent certain.

 

[aussiesheila]

Gideon Epstein too. 100% certain P wrote it.

I think Patsy wrote the ransom note.

But I think the first 7 sentences were composed by someone else and dictated to her over the phone

Then she composed the rest

 

[duffy]

sure do...:
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/05172002Depo-GideonEpstein.htm

Q: What is your degree of certainty yourself as you sit here today that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?
A. I am absolutely certain that she wrote the note.
Q. Is that 60 percent certain?
A. No, that's 100 percent certain.

Thank you Josh! I went and looked at the transcripts, read quite a bit but I worked all night so I couldn't take too much. I will go back and look tomorrow. Thanks again though. There were a couple of other names he mentioned that I didn't recognize. Gonna have to Google those. Maybe we should do a thread concerning the examination of the r.n.

 

[duffy]

I think Patsy wrote the ransom note.

But I think the first 7 sentences were composed by someone else and dictated to her over the phone

Then she composed the rest

Sheila, what makes you think this?

 

[BlueCrab]

Thank you Josh! I went and looked at the transcripts, read quite a bit but I worked all night so I couldn't take too much. I will go back and look tomorrow. Thanks again though. There were a couple of other names he mentioned that I didn't recognize. Gonna have to Google those. Maybe we should do a thread concerning the examination of the r.n.

duffy,

Here's some of the names used in the Gideon Epstein deposition transcript. They are the handwriting experts mentioned by Darnay Hoffman and Lin Wood in the Wolf v Ramsey defamation lawsuit.

The CBI used six nationally-recognized handwriting analysts to study the writing of 72 suspects:

Leonard Speckin
Edwin F. Alford, Jr.
Lloyd Cunningham
Richard Dusak
Howard Rile
Chet Ubowski

In the Wolf v Ramsey lawsuit attorney Darnay Hoffman used five nationally-recognized analysts, although two of them (Ziegler and Epstein) dropped out early:

Tom Miller
Cina Wong
David Liebman
Larry Ziegler
Gideon Epstein

The case was eventually dismissed by federal judge Julie Carnes.

The CBI's six examiners concluded there was a very low likelihood that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note. Three of them, including the U.S. Secret Service's Richard Dusak, said flatly (100% sure) that Patsy didn't write it.

The five examiners for Wolf said Patsy likely wrote the note. One of them, Gideon Epstein, said he was 100% sure she wrote it.

The CBI's examiners were the only ones who had the original note to study and all of Patsy's past and present exemplars. All other examiners had to use photo copies of the note because the original was purposely destroyed in attempts to get fingerprints from it.

 

[duffy]

The original ransom note has been destroyed? For fingerprints? Are they on crack?

This case is similar to the o.j. case in that there was a lot of bad, bad police work. I think the D.A.'s office in L.A. was as guilty as the cops as far as grossly unprofessional. That's anthother thread!

I will go check the names out tomorrow though. Thank you Blue Crab.

 

[simplesimon]

Hi all,​

This is my first post at this forum,although I have been lurking for sometime. I found it because of the Laci case. It is nice to find people that are still interested in these cases. My husband thinks I am a little crazy or obsessed as he says! LOL
I followed this case originally but just read updates periodically,I was very surprised to find all of the theories and evidence here.
My one thought from reading PMPT was that Linda Arndt found a paper bag with clothes the morning she was called.I think she put it in a closet?This suggests to me that maybe another child was with the R's that night,maybe picked up at one of the friends.Kiddies,especially boys throw clothes in bags for sleepovers. Any thoughts if there were others that were at the house that night?
Did Schiller hide clues in PMPT? Did he know more then he revealed??

 

[BlueCrab]

Hi all,​

This is my first post at this forum,although I have been lurking for sometime. I found it because of the Laci case. It is nice to find people that are still interested in these cases. My husband thinks I am a little crazy or obsessed as he says! LOL
I followed this case originally but just read updates periodically,I was very surprised to find all of the theories and evidence here.
My one thought from reading PMPT was that Linda Arndt found a paper bag with clothes the morning she was called.I think she put it in a closet?This suggests to me that maybe another child was with the R's that night,maybe picked up at one of the friends.Kiddies,especially boys throw clothes in bags for sleepovers. Any thoughts if there were others that were at the house that night?
Did Schiller hide clues in PMPT? Did he know more then he revealed??

Welcome simplesimon,

I agree with you there could have been a boys sleepover at the Ramseys that night, even though the Ramseys were leaving on vacation early the next morning. The Ramseys could have dropped off the kids on their way to the airport. There's ample evidence there was a fifth person in the house that night, mainly because of missing crime scene evidence, but there are other clues too.

I like your suggestion that author Larry Schiller could have planted clues in PMPT after he was asked or told to remove things from the book. Schiller admits he has published only about 10% of what he really knows about this crime. He also admits Boulder authorities asked him to remove certain things from the book so as not to "compromise" the investigation. What investigation? PMPT pb was published in November of 1999, three years after the murder and one month after the Ramsey grand jury permanently adjourned after 13 months of investigating. There's been no active investigation since the GJ adjourned in October of 1999.

I think the grand jury's investigators solved the crime, kids were involved, and the Colorado Children's Code has forced the court to clamp a lid on the case, perhaps forever.

Who were the kids? To answer that question one has to go no further than PMPT's name index to see whose name was removed from the text of the book, but whose name was not removed from the name index (perhaps one of Schiller's clues left on purpose). And although 500 people are listed in PMPT's name index, a certain 21 year-old college student who regularly baby-sat and drove JonBenet, Burke, and Doug to school, isn't mentioned even once in the book. Schiller's silence about this guy is deafening.

BlueCrab

 

[narlacat]

I think Patsy wrote the ransom note.

But I think the first 7 sentences were composed by someone else and dictated to her over the phone

Then she composed the rest

aussiesheila

What makes you think that?

 

[sissi]

When everything starts to get muddled, when the facts become tainted I always "click" over to crt. tv's crime library, it helps me sort things out. Just a suggestion
I believe the author, Bellamy, is a retired homicide detective.


http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html?sect=7

 

[simplesimon]

Welcome simplesimon,

I agree with you there could have been a boys sleepover at the Ramseys that night, even though the Ramseys were leaving on vacation early the next morning. The Ramseys could have dropped off the kids on their way to the airport. There's ample evidence there was a fifth person in the house that night, mainly because of missing crime scene evidence, but there are other clues too.

I like your suggestion that author Larry Schiller could have planted clues in PMPT after he was asked or told to remove things from the book. Schiller admits he has published only about 10% of what he really knows about this crime. He also admits Boulder authorities asked him to remove certain things from the book so as not to "compromise" the investigation. What investigation? PMPT pb was published in November of 1999, three years after the murder and one month after the Ramsey grand jury permanently adjourned after 13 months of investigating. There's been no active investigation since the GJ adjourned in October of 1999.

I think the grand jury's investigators solved the crime, kids were involved, and the Colorado Children's Code has forced the court to clamp a lid on the case, perhaps forever.

Who were the kids? To answer that question one has to go no further than PMPT's name index to see whose name was removed from the text of the book, but whose name was not removed from the name index (perhaps one of Schiller's clues left on purpose). And although 500 people are listed in PMPT's name index, a certain 21 year-old college student who regularly baby-sat and drove JonBenet, Burke, and Doug to school, isn't mentioned even once in the book. Schiller's silence about this guy is deafening.

BlueCrab

thanks, Blue Crab,
Why couldn't the 21yr old be investigated and charged? where is he now?
The reason I asked about Schiller hiding clues is take that bag of clothes for instance,we never hear about them again and really what is the purpose of putting it in the book? Does it lead to another family whose son slept there that night, maybe the same family that did the R,s make-up? It just seems some things are put in the book for a specific reason.Any thoughts?

 

[BlueCrab]

Why couldn't the 21yr old be investigated? where is he now?

Good question about why he wasn't thoroughly investigated. And why Schiller is apparently helping to coverup his very existence by leaving him out of PMPT. To find out more you can Google his name, Nathan Inouye.

 

[Camper]

Since the party of the 23 and Christmas two days later, time frame between the two parties was short and a busy time for everyone.

LHP daughter was in the Ramsey home with her mom, and was asked to stay for the party on the 23rd. LHP replied that her daughter was not dressed properly for the party, to which PR offered some clothing for her to wear. (My comment here should be substantiated so IF someone can jump in and do that - I DO AND DID not keep records on the case]

So if that is correct, my theory is that LHP daughters 'not party duds' whatever they consisted of were most likely and possibly put into a paper bag, and then 'forgotten' to be taken when they left AFTER the party.

Yes, the tutor got to leave under the BPD radar. (their radar included a tinfoil hat for everyone) If you will note on the JonBenet topic header, there is a thread saying WE are not to mention names. BC, myself and a number of posters gave the '21 yr old CU student tutor' a very thorough 'study'. You most likely can find some of it in the archives here, it was quite recently discussed at LENGTH.



.

 

[capps]

Good question about why he wasn't thoroughly investigated. And why Schiller is apparently helping to coverup his very existence by leaving him out of PMPT. To find out more you can Google his name, Nathan Inouye.

BlueCrab,

What I find interesting,is that we know a little bit about:

BR - In high school,will be graduating,went to the stump with JR when he tried to run for office,and took PR's place when she wasn't feeling well.

MR - Is now married,and I believe is/was furthering her education to either become a nurse or doctor.

NI - we know a little bit about him,from the article I previously posted here,but it was deleted by the moderators,because he is a private citizen. (Sorry mods,my mistake!)

DS - which I would assume is graduating from high school also. (But I am assuming.)

But the one person we've heard nothing about is JAR ... nothing,nada,not a word,not even a hint.The only thing we know,is that back in 1996 he was a student at BU.He would be 28 yrs. old now.

Wonder what JAR is doing?