Interesting ...

[Linda7NJ]

capps,

It had to be Burke's voice because he was the only young male in the house at 5:52 AM. By 6:00 AM the cops were there.

The amateur enhancement of the 911 tape by Voice of Reason can likely be found in the archives.

I hate to be a pain in the butt....but could you please link it for me ? I have tried accessing it with no luck.

I never followed the Ramsey case very closely, just the regular tv shows back then and have read extensively here since the Jackson case is over. I enjoy your posts immensely.

I just wish the folks here would link the facts so I am better able discern fact from speculation.

 

[tipper]

The problem with the "not wiping well" theory is that it fails to explain why the inside of JonBenet's vagina was irritated, while her labia, both majora and minora, were unirritated and undamaged in any way. Are you suggesting that JonBenet wiped urine up into her own vagina where it eroded a part of her vaginal wall (but only a very small part, and by coincidence the same part that intruder theorists insist was the same small part which is evidence of assault the night of December 25th), but she was careful to clean her labia thoroughly? I am open-minded enough to hear your theory as to how the labial structures, the most external of all the wiping area on a girl child's genitalia, stayed so clean despite improper wiping. Their cleanliness at the time of autopsy would tend to suggest to me a pretty good wiping technique.

That's a very interesting question and when my computer isn't freezing on me and having to be restarted I've been trying to see what I could learn. If she had had a minor infection/irritation such as mentioned below, could it be that the external genitalia got bathed/washed/wiped and the skin healed more quickly than the internal?
http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section18/chapter238/238a.jsp

In children, vulvitis is most commonly due to infection by Escherichia coli; streptococci, staphylococci, and Candida sp are less common causes. Occasionally, pinworms cause infection. If Neisseria gonorrhoeae is found on culture, sexual abuse is confirmed. Chemicals in bubble baths or soaps may cause irritation. When a discharge is present, especially with blood, a foreign body must be ruled out. Poor hygiene and fingering, a practice common to girls aged 2 to 6 yr, contribute to infection. A normal physiologic discharge may develop or increase as a child approaches menarche because estrogen production increases.

Although I couldn't find any direct info on the interstitial infiltration in JonBenet I did find the following:
http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?tissue+fluid

infiltration<pathology> The diffusion or accumulation in a tissue or cells of substances not normal to it or in amounts of the normal. Also, the material so accumulated.

interstitial fluid

The fluid in spaces between the tissue cells, constituting about 16% of the weight of the body; closely similar in composition to lymph.

Sounds to me like they are describing swelling. In fact Wecht says "swelling of the vaginal mucosa." If so, why the 72 hours? I have had injuries swell almost immediately. Why would JonBenet's vaginal injuries be different?

 

[aussiesheila]

Yes, and I think the odds of it are so small as to be non-existent. Nor do I think the Ramseys paid off respected professionals who have devoted their careers to helping crime victims.

I disagree with you Tipper. I think the odds are quite high.
And I don't think the Ramseys paid off any professionals respected or not. I have never said that nor have I meant to imply it.
When I suggested that the paediatrician might have been lying I meant that he might have been lying to PATSY.

 

[aussiesheila]

There were no injuries noted in the autopsy to suggest prior molestation, not one area of "healing". We do all have our opinions, but this fact clearly points to this night, the night she was murdered , as her first victimization.IMO

Sissi, the autopsy report stated there was evidence ’focal interstitial chronic inflammation’ of the vaginal mucosa. This might not be termed an ‘injury’ in the strict sense of the word. But it does indicate that the vagina had been exposed over a long period of time to something that had caused it to become chronically inflamed. And that does suggest prior sexual abuse.

 

[aussiesheila]

re post 98

unanimously agreed JonBenet had suffered acute (night of the murder) and chronic (1 to 3 days prior to the murder) sexual abuse to the vagina.
BlueCrab

Sorry BlueCrab,
'chronic' is longer than 1 to 3 days

 

[aussiesheila]

I have no idea whether they were still using bubble bath. I've never read that Patsy failed to follow instructions from the pediatrician which leaves us with the irritation caused by not wiping well which we know was also a problem with JonBenet. In other words - poor hygene - as stated in my post.

So why was good hygiene so difficult for JonBenet to practice? She was supposedly intelligent and able-bodied, so why at six years of age was she incapable of doing what the average six year old girl has mastered pretty well? It's pretty hard to believe that she was incapable, but this is what the paediatrician made Patsy believe. Either that or the bubble bath crap. As long as she could be stopped from believing it was sexual abuse.

 

[why_nutt]

So why was good hygiene so difficult for JonBenet to practice? She was supposedly intelligent and able-bodied, so why at six years of age was she incapable of doing what the average six year old girl has mastered pretty well? It's pretty hard to believe that she was incapable, but this is what the paediatrician made Patsy believe. Either that or the bubble bath crap. As long as she could be stopped from believing it was sexual abuse.

Good point. JonBenet was not a klutzy little girl who could barely walk and chew gum at the same time, and could therefore hardly be expected to learn how to clean herself in a routine sanitary fashion that preserved her good health. JonBenet had an excellent memory and physical skills, revealed in how well she was able to perform simultaneous singing and dancing, and not only that, but with multiple routines and interaction with props (as with the flags in her "God Bless America" tap dance). A child who could learn how to sing and dance well enough to win prizes is a child who could learn how to manipulate a simple piece of toilet paper.

 

[Camper]

Welllllll, she did not play the piano, which takes great motor skills. I dare say many, or could say countless (means none of us know HOW many) six years olds have not developed fine motor skills.

So, again countless six year olds may have never had an opportunity to closely examine the portal through which bodily functions appear, therefore rather inexperienced in wiping CORRECTLY and adequately.

Countless 6 year olds have other things on their mind and only go to the bathroom and a quick have to deal.

Heck I used to be having so much fun playing in the Michigan snow, I would wait til it was too late to make it to the outhouse and get all the leggings undone and make it to grandpas picture frame location in time, jumping up and down all the while.

Sometimes WE have to really just recall our own childhood and how things were. Plus depending on what meals have been eaten the character of poopie is different from time to time, making it more difficult for a 6 year old to deal with the complexity of it all.

This commentary does not take away any talent or abilities of this tiny girl, but a new look at childhood in general.



.

 

[Toltec]

Don't know what fabrics were used in her room. It looks like it might be chintz which has a fairly firm surface. Also don't know what was there for carpet or how often LHP vacuumed but it sounds like you suggesting a 'good parent' would have kept the child in an empty cell.

Tipper, I am a registered nurse and I know what it takes to prevent sinus infections and bronchitis/asthma and such. You do not fill a room with stuffed animals, you do remove the carpet and you do not place heavy curtains in the room. You've seen pictures of JonBenet's room...surely you would have cleared her room of items that would collect dust if she suffered sinus problems. I don't know if Dr. Beuf recommended Patsy do that...but he should have.

 

[why_nutt]

Welllllll, she did not play the piano, which takes great motor skills..

Actually, she did play piano, and the violin, at least according to Patsy's 1995 Christmas letter.

 

[Zman]

Sissi, the autopsy report stated there was evidence ’focal interstitial chronic inflammation’ of the vaginal mucosa. This might not be termed an ‘injury’ in the strict sense of the word. But it does indicate that the vagina had been exposed over a long period of time to something that had caused it to become chronically inflamed. And that does suggest prior sexual abuse.

All the trouble one word in a sentence can cause.

Once again people see what they want to see. Chronic has two meanings.

Look it up.
2. always present or encountered.

In other words "at this time the inflammation is always present(chronic)
It does not indicate or suggest prior sexual abuse. It suggests no prior injury of any kind. The word "chronic" deals only with what is being seen at the time.

 

[Toltec]

Good point. JonBenet was not a klutzy little girl who could barely walk and chew gum at the same time, and could therefore hardly be expected to learn how to clean herself in a routine sanitary fashion that preserved her good health. JonBenet had an excellent memory and physical skills, revealed in how well she was able to perform simultaneous singing and dancing, and not only that, but with multiple routines and interaction with props (as with the flags in her "God Bless America" tap dance). A child who could learn how to sing and dance well enough to win prizes is a child who could learn how to manipulate a simple piece of toilet paper.

Girls that age (6) don't wipe properly, even when taught how to by parents. Little girls tend to wipe forward instead of the correct way which is backwards. My eight-year-old niece still gets skid marks on her panties.

My belief is that Patsy wiped her down because JonBenet's labia was wiped clean. No male would think/know to wipe the folds of the labia...especially a little boy Burke's age.

I was still wiping my child's bottom at age 6 because I believed 6 was still too young to master it.

 

[Zman]

Girls that age (6) don't wipe properly, even when taught how to by parents. Little girls tend to wipe forward instead of the correct way which is backwards. My eight-year-old niece still gets skid marks on her panties.

My belief is that Patsy wiped her down because JonBenet's labia was wiped clean. No male would think/know to wipe the folds of the labia...especially a little boy Burke's age.

I was still wiping my child's bottom at age 6 because I believed 6 was still too young to master it.

I find that troubling. I wouldn't think of touching my six year old unless it was an emergency of some kind.

 

[sissi]

I do remember washing their little bottoms during the diaper stage, after that , until about age four, I wiped their bottoms but figured anything going on elsewhere would soak off in the bath at night. HOWEVER!! I DO remember the pediatrician, a woman, suggesting to the girls that they wash the area more carefully at bathtime, as she saw something that she said could prove to be irritating if they didn't practice better hygiene. My youngest had ear infections, usually following an infection and the subsequent "round" of antibiotics , the doc would have to put her on myco-something to get rid of the antibiotic induced vaginitis. A child of age six not to be taking care of her own toileting is unusual, "BUT" ..just because we read that Fleet wiped her, does NOT mean it was that year, he could have wiped her when she was four!

 

[aussiesheila]

Welllllll, she did not play the piano, which takes great motor skills. I dare say many, or could say countless (means none of us know HOW many) six years olds have not developed fine motor skills.

So, again countless six year olds may have never had an opportunity to closely examine the portal through which bodily functions appear, therefore rather inexperienced in wiping CORRECTLY and adequately.

Countless 6 year olds have other things on their mind and only go to the bathroom and a quick have to deal.

Heck I used to be having so much fun playing in the Michigan snow, I would wait til it was too late to make it to the outhouse and get all the leggings undone and make it to grandpas picture frame location in time, jumping up and down all the while.

Sometimes WE have to really just recall our own childhood and how things were. Plus depending on what meals have been eaten the character of poopie is different from time to time, making it more difficult for a 6 year old to deal with the complexity of it all.

This commentary does not take away any talent or abilities of this tiny girl, but a new look at childhood in general.



.

So tell me please Camper - did these countless 6 year old girls that you know of also wipe themselves so ineptly that they ended up with vaginitis and bladder infections?

 

[aussiesheila]

All the trouble one word in a sentence can cause.

Once again people see what they want to see. Chronic has two meanings.

Look it up.
2. always present or encountered.

In other words "at this time the inflammation is always present(chronic)
It does not indicate or suggest prior sexual abuse. It suggests no prior injury of any kind. The word "chronic" deals only with what is being seen at the time.

Sorry Zman I don't agree. When a medico says chronic she/he is talking medical-speak and in medical-speak 'chronic' means 'persisting over a long period of time' - and that definition is taken from a medical dictionary.

 

[Camper]

So tell me please Camper - did these countless 6 year old girls that you know of also wipe themselves so ineptly that they ended up with vaginitis and bladder infections?

Well I did say MAY HAVE, if you read carefully. I see an attempt to slam me for innocent observations. The only children I have observed closely were my own eight children. The received medical attention on a regular basis, but we did not LIVE in the doctors office. My children were healthy and robust. In toto, one broken arm, child tossed from a ride on the back end of a horse. The family drove my child to town to see the doctor asap, and had a head on collision on the way to town. Then of course I have 17 grandchildren whom I see on a quite regular basis. NONE of these children in my family ever had a vaginal infection.

I often wonder just HOW often JonBenet had a bath, or how she was of IF she was ever instructed specifically HOW to clean herself while in the tub.



.

 

[Zman]

Sorry Zman I don't agree. When a medico says chronic she/he is talking medical-speak and in medical-speak 'chronic' means 'persisting over a long period of time' - and that definition is taken from a medical dictionary.

Sorry you don't wish to know the truth. But you can live in your fantasy world if you wish.
There is also no other evidence to indicate that JBR was a sexually molested child. Unless you would like to make up something else.

More than that I dont even think she was molested "sexually" that night.
She was assualted with a paint brush not a penis.
That seems to be more of a message. More violent.

 

[narlacat]

Sorry you don't wish to know the truth. But you can live in your fantasy world if you wish.
There is also no other evidence to indicate that JBR was a sexually molested child. Unless you would like to make up something else.

More than that I dont even think she was molested "sexually" that night.
She was assualted with a paint brush not a penis.
That seems to be more of a message. More violent.

Zman
How can you say she wasnt 'sexually' molested....its not what she was assaulted with, it was where.
JonBenet was sexually assaulted with a paintbrush whichever way you look at it.

 

[tipper]

Zman
How can you say she wasnt 'sexually' molested....its not what she was assaulted with, it was where.
JonBenet was sexually assaulted with a paintbrush whichever way you look at it.

Rape with an object is still considered rape. You can even have rape with or without penetration. What was done to JonBenet was legally rape but I wonder if it was done for the benefit of the killer or to lead investigators astray?