Intruder probability more, less, or same?

[BBB167893]

The ransom note added nothing to the basement crime scene.

What we have here is failure to communicate. DeeDee didn't say it DID add anything to the basement crime scene. She said it added what PR thought needed to be added.

Sometimes I wonder if these are genunine misunderstandings.

 

[BBB167893]

This is clearly wrong, as 'fat cat' isn't a term used in the 1960's and 1970's and therefore doesn't suggest that the person is middle aged.

Well, I may not know firsthand, since I wasn't born yet, but considering that DePue was active during the Sixties, when groups like Students for Democratic Society, the Weather Underground, the Symbionese Liberation Army, et al., were at their peak, and most certainly DID use that term. (Some of them STILL use it.)

I know who I'd put my money on.

This exposes a political naivety that when combined with a politically charged ransom note leaves a lot to be desired.

HIGHLY unlikely, give the man's station.

It seems to me this is an off-handed remark made by someone who spent very little time researching and formulating an opinion.

I suppose it would be easy to assume that. After all, I only gave you a SMALL snippet of what he said. I'd be more than happy to post the whole thing!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

What we have here is failure to communicate. DeeDee didn't say it DID add anything to the basement crime scene. She said it added what PR thought needed to be added.

Sometimes I wonder if these are genunine misunderstandings.

...and I said thats a complete fiction.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, I may not know firsthand, since I wasn't born yet, but considering that DePue was active during the Sixties, when groups like Students for Democratic Society, the Weather Underground, the Symbionese Liberation Army, et al., were at their peak, and most certainly DID use that term. (Some of them STILL use it.)

I know who I'd put my money on.



HIGHLY unlikely, give the man's station.

More like highly likely, given the status of the case. Based on this post, its clear that political naivety isn't unique to one person.

 

[BBB167893]

I think you're proclaiming that you are highly educated and intelligent,

I'm in a difficult spot, HOTYH. If I say that I AM highly educated and intelligent, everyone will think that I'm boasting. But if I say that I am NOT highly educated and intelligent, everyone will KNOW I'm lying!

but you would do something stupid when pushed into a corner.

I HAVE done stupid things when pushed into a corner! But I think I should categorize that. Number one, it's easy to see that they were stupid NOW. Hindsight is 20/20; we all know how that works. But at the time, they seemed like the only way out, especially since I didn't have all that much time to mull. Number two, I wasn't just referring to myself. I was referring to the actions of others, both ones that I have witnessed and those I have heard of.

OK I can see that,

Are you speaking generally, or was that an insult to me personally?

but what was pushing PR into a corner?

I should think that would be fairly obvious! But let's get literal here. Let's look at it from her likely point of view:

If what I think happened happened, then JB is lying essentially at her feet, dead for all she knows, gravely injured at best. PR could call for help, but JB's most likely going to die no matter what at this point. All that would do is put her in the gunsights of the law. And don't forget: PR was from the South, where LE doesn't mess around. The stereotypes of the redneck sheriff with the mirrored sunglasses or the hard-nosed hanging judge didn't come out of nowhere. She had no reason to think that the Boulder cops were any different. Add to that the horrible stories we hear about what happens to people in prison who harm children. Even if she were spared those atrocities (and from what I hear, women's prisons are even worse than men's prisons in that regard; there's a reason why Susan Smith is kept under constant watch), she was not in the greatest of health and would very likely die in prison. Even if, (in her mind) by some miracle, she avoided jail time, her public reputation would be irreparably ruined, her remaining child would most likely be taken from her, and she'd live as a virtual "untouchable" for the rest of her life.

That's not just being backed into a corner; that's stepping in a bear-trap and having to chew your own leg off to get out!

By making the choice to cover it up, you can at least try to plant the seed of doubt. There's a chance, however small, that someone will believe your contrivance. People will suspect, yes. But there will always be those who defend you. There will always be doubt. And given the chance between slim and none, I'll take slim any day.

 

[BBB167893]

...and I said thats a complete fiction.

I KNOW what YOU said. Your meaning is perfectly clear. Perhaps ours was not.

It's one thing for you to so blithely dismiss our points. But I don't think you make any effort at all to understand them. Tell me I'm wrong.

 

[BBB167893]

More like highly likely, given the status of the case.

Considering that these guys do this everyday and have special training that you and I don't, I stand firm.

Based on this post, its clear that political naivety isn't unique to one person.

Don't push it, HOTYH. You obviously don't know me very well. In fact, I'm confident that you'd be hard-pressed to find a young person as politically savvy as I am. That's no boast; that's a fact. It's a big part of who I am.

 

[BOESP]

You've no idea what you're talking about.

There are 100000's of foreign ESL's who were taught English at such an early age that you couldn't distinguish them at all. ESL is mandatory in many countries. Maybe you're confusing ESL's here in the process of learning vs. foreign ESL's already learned at a young age.

It's absurd to imply that either John Ramsey or JonBenet were important enough in the scheme of world politics that either would be the subject of a "small foreign faction" kidnapping/killing plot. I interpret many of your posts to mean we should believe they were.

 

[BOESP]

... That's not just being backed into a corner; that's stepping in a bear-trap and having to chew your own leg off to get out! ...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I should think that would be fairly obvious! But let's get literal here. Let's look at it from her likely point of view:

Her LIKELY point of view? You're way, way ahead of yourself.

IF PR accidentally hit JBR in the head, PR would not introduce implements of murder in a capital murder state, and compound the problem exponentially by associating at will her own handwriting in the form of long, long note. If PR wrote the note as you claim (c-l-a-i-m), then her likely point of view is that she was FORCED by someone else to write it, under threat of death. Thats the only way a highly educated, intelligent person would handwrite a ransom note and leave it in their own house.

Ya can't win 'em all, SD.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Don't push it, HOTYH. You obviously don't know me very well. In fact, I'm confident that you'd be hard-pressed to find a young person as politically savvy as I am. That's no boast; that's a fact. It's a big part of who I am.

This ransom note author makes reference to not respecting the U.S., identifies himself as foreign, and uses charged political expressions like 'execution'. If you're so politically saavy, how come the only people you come up with that use the term 'fat cat' are misguided domestic teenagers from the 1960's and 1970's? Because you believe thats PR and JR's demographic? Thats just more circular reasoning.

Or, are you simply obfuscating the ransom note content by deliberately avoiding the most common sources for some of the terms it contains? That is how it seems, because 'fat cat' term is used globally from the 1800's to present, not just domestically from 1960's to 1970's as your propaganda suggests.

Since the term is used globally for a hundred years, it is impossible to infer age simply from the use of the term 'fat cat', especially in the context that it was actually used in the ransom note. Anyone capable of thought over the border would know this, since the term is more popular outside the US than inside (U know, like attache is more popular outside US).

There is no doubt the investigation suffers from political naivety, obfuscation, and circular reasoning.

Might as well wait for a DNA match.

 

[cynic]

Hindsight is 20/20; we all know how that works. But at the time, they seemed like the only way out, especially since I didn't have all that much time to mull. Number two, I wasn't just referring to myself. I was referring to the actions of others, both ones that I have witnessed and those I have heard of.

If what I think happened happened, then JB is lying essentially at her feet, dead for all she knows, gravely injured at best. PR could call for help, but JB's most likely going to die no matter what at this point. All that would do is put her in the gunsights of the law. And don't forget: PR was from the South, where LE doesn't mess around. The stereotypes of the redneck sheriff with the mirrored sunglasses or the hard-nosed hanging judge didn't come out of nowhere. She had no reason to think that the Boulder cops were any different. Add to that the horrible stories we hear about what happens to people in prison who harm children. Even if she were spared those atrocities (and from what I hear, women's prisons are even worse than men's prisons in that regard; there's a reason why Susan Smith is kept under constant watch), she was not in the greatest of health and would very likely die in prison. Even if, (in her mind) by some miracle, she avoided jail time, her public reputation would be irreparably ruined, her remaining child would most likely be taken from her, and she'd live as a virtual "untouchable" for the rest of her life.

That's not just being backed into a corner; that's stepping in a bear-trap and having to chew your own leg off to get out!

By making the choice to cover it up, you can at least try to plant the seed of doubt. There's a chance, however small, that someone will believe your contrivance. People will suspect, yes. But there will always be those who defend you. There will always be doubt. And given the chance between slim and none, I'll take slim any day.

:applause:

She was truly fighting for her life and did a pretty good job.

 

[cynic]

The note was totally ridiculous from the standpoint of having any credibility as a kidnap note, said former FBI profiler Robert Ressler. The Police wasted effectively eight hours of crucial time in buying this kidnap note.
But, said Ressler, get the person that wrote that note and that person may not have killed JonBenet, but they certainly know what happened.
For that reason, he said, It's probably the best piece of evidence they have.
Ressler has assisted with hundreds of investigations, including those of multiple murderers Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy.
Now a private consultant in forensic behavioral science and based in Virginia, Ressler said the evidence, including the autopsy, suggests JonBenet was killed accidentally and an elaborate cover-up was done to divert police away from the crime.
He believes, for instance, that the child was garroted to divert police from what he believes is the true cause of her death: a blow to the head. The writing of the note, he said, was part of the overall effort to send police astray.
If police had not fallen for the ploy, he said bluntly, the case would now be solved. They should have immediately started the investigation at another level, he said.

Patsy Ramsey said she found the note at 5:30 a.m. Dec. 26, 1996, as she walked down the backstairs toward the kitchen to make coffee.
Gregg McCrary, another former FBI profiler now doing private criminal consulting in Virginia, said placement of the note -- on the backstairs of the sprawling $1.5 million home -- is significant.
That's not a prominent place to leave a note -- unless you know that they come downstairs in the morning to make coffee, McCrary said. That shows me a knowledge of the house and of the activities of the people in the house.

The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. Speaking to anyone about your situation such as police or FBI will result in your daughter being beheaded. ... Use that good, southern common sense of yours.

Ressler said this passage and others that provide information about the kidnappers show the writer has no criminal experience.
Kidnap notes do not give information, Ressler said. They don't tell you how many people are in the organization, they don't tell you they are going to behead your daughter and they don't tell you the kind of container to use to get the money.
In addition, he said, the note reflects a person whose knowledge of kidnapping comes from movies and books. One line, in particular – “Don't try to grow a brain, John'' -- echoes a line spoken by actor Dennis Hopper in the movie “Speed.''

The ransom note was written with a black felt-tip pen on lined paper reportedly from a tablet in the home.
Containing directives and contingencies, it is overall a sophisticated letter written by an educated person, said Bethany Dumas, a University of Tennessee English linguistics professor who has testified several times as an expert witness.
You can try to deceive us, but be warned we are familiar with law enforcement counter-measures and tactics.
That passage, Dumas said, is very formal, very educated.

The $118,000 demand is interesting to McCrary, who notes most ransom demands are for a huge fat sum. When Exxon executive Sidney J. Reso was abducted in 1992, the ransom demanded was $18.5 million.
Also, McCrary said, the Ramsey note is unnecessarily wordy. Like the comment, “We respect your business.”
It's not important to get the job done, but somebody felt it was important to say, McCrary said. Usually, it's, “We've got your daughter and if you want to see her alive pay us.''

Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

This business of getting a good night's rest because the next days are going to be trying, all these things are just above and beyond a kidnapper, Ressler said.
The language has a caretaker quality and sounds like it comes from a college-educated mature female. But I'm not saying that it is Mrs. Ramsey, he said.
Ressler said the writing points to a woman because men aren't that caring. They really don't care.

-Associated Press

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It's absurd to imply that either John Ramsey or JonBenet were important enough in the scheme of world politics that either would be the subject of a "small foreign faction" kidnapping/killing plot. I interpret many of your posts to mean we should believe they were.

Its very likely supposed to have a latent effect. It wont have a latent effect because fortunately not everybody was as fooled as RDI was. This was a very stupid foreign faction.

U.S. Secret Service: 'no evidence PR executed any of the material'

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The note was totally ridiculous from the standpoint of having any credibility as a kidnap note, said former FBI profiler Robert Ressler. The Police wasted effectively eight hours of crucial time in buying this kidnap note.
But, said Ressler, get the person that wrote that note and that person may not have killed JonBenet, but they certainly know what happened.
For that reason, he said, It's probably the best piece of evidence they have.
Ressler has assisted with hundreds of investigations, including those of multiple murderers Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy.
Now a private consultant in forensic behavioral science and based in Virginia, Ressler said the evidence, including the autopsy, suggests JonBenet was killed accidentally and an elaborate cover-up was done to divert police away from the crime.
He believes, for instance, that the child was garroted to divert police from what he believes is the true cause of her death: a blow to the head. The writing of the note, he said, was part of the overall effort to send police astray.
If police had not fallen for the ploy, he said bluntly, the case would now be solved. They should have immediately started the investigation at another level, he said.

Patsy Ramsey said she found the note at 5:30 a.m. Dec. 26, 1996, as she walked down the backstairs toward the kitchen to make coffee.
Gregg McCrary, another former FBI profiler now doing private criminal consulting in Virginia, said placement of the note -- on the backstairs of the sprawling $1.5 million home -- is significant.
That's not a prominent place to leave a note -- unless you know that they come downstairs in the morning to make coffee, McCrary said. That shows me a knowledge of the house and of the activities of the people in the house.

The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. Speaking to anyone about your situation such as police or FBI will result in your daughter being beheaded. ... Use that good, southern common sense of yours.

Ressler said this passage and others that provide information about the kidnappers show the writer has no criminal experience.
Kidnap notes do not give information, Ressler said. They don't tell you how many people are in the organization, they don't tell you they are going to behead your daughter and they don't tell you the kind of container to use to get the money.
In addition, he said, the note reflects a person whose knowledge of kidnapping comes from movies and books. One line, in particular – “Don't try to grow a brain, John'' -- echoes a line spoken by actor Dennis Hopper in the movie “Speed.''

The ransom note was written with a black felt-tip pen on lined paper reportedly from a tablet in the home.
Containing directives and contingencies, it is overall a sophisticated letter written by an educated person, said Bethany Dumas, a University of Tennessee English linguistics professor who has testified several times as an expert witness.
You can try to deceive us, but be warned we are familiar with law enforcement counter-measures and tactics.
That passage, Dumas said, is very formal, very educated.

The $118,000 demand is interesting to McCrary, who notes most ransom demands are for a huge fat sum. When Exxon executive Sidney J. Reso was abducted in 1992, the ransom demanded was $18.5 million.
Also, McCrary said, the Ramsey note is unnecessarily wordy. Like the comment, “We respect your business.”
It's not important to get the job done, but somebody felt it was important to say, McCrary said. Usually, it's, “We've got your daughter and if you want to see her alive pay us.''

Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

This business of getting a good night's rest because the next days are going to be trying, all these things are just above and beyond a kidnapper, Ressler said.
The language has a caretaker quality and sounds like it comes from a college-educated mature female. But I'm not saying that it is Mrs. Ramsey, he said.
Ressler said the writing points to a woman because men aren't that caring. They really don't care.

-Associated Press

A college educated mature female? U gotta be kiddn me. The vocabulary doesn't even reach middle-school. There isn't one college-level word in the entire note. Where do you get this cr@&?

 

[nobull]

This ransom note author makes reference to not respecting the U.S., identifies himself as foreign, and uses charged political expressions like 'execution'. If you're so politically saavy, how come and the only people you come up with that use the term 'fat cat' are misguided domestic teenagers from the 1960's and 1970's? Because you believe thats PR and JR's demographic? Thats just more circular reasoning.

"A wealthy and privileged person, as in This neighborhood, with its million-dollar estates, is full of fat cats. This term originally meant "a rich contributor to a political campaign," and while this usage persists, it now is often applied more broadly, as in the example. [Colloquial; 1920s]" --

"fat cat." The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer. Houghton Mifflin Company. 17 Apr. 2010. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fat cat>.

Feel free to duke it out with the American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms. Of course every term has an origin, but often the meaning changes over time. I sincerely doubt someone was invoking 1920's colloquial speech references when they wrote this note in 1996.

 

[cynic]

Or, are you simply obfuscating the ransom note content by deliberately avoiding the most common sources for some of the terms it contains? That is how it seems, because 'fat cat' term is used globally from the 1800's to present, not just domestically from 1960's to 1970's as your propaganda suggests.

It’s certainly interesting that the Ramseys were familiar with the term, and perhaps the raconteur in the family might have been inclined to use it when writing the ransom note?

MIKE KANE: You're not the only fat cat around.
JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Those are the phrases that we, you know, later we thought we had heard from people around us who have tried to reconstruct who, where.
MIKE KANE: When you say we thought?
JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I.
MIKE KANE: Okay. And how was it that you heard?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, grow a brain, fat cats. We'd heard those before.
MIKE KANE: Were you ever able to --
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had some names we came up with. We passed on (INAUDIBLE) our
friends in Atlanta, "Atlanta fat cats" later in that week.
MIKE KANE: When was that specifically?
JOHN RAMSEY: That was when she was back; when we were back for the funeral.
MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) friends saying that about?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when we went back, Ron Westmoreland had like a little reception after the funeral, and some of my friends were there, and he has a beautiful home in Atlanta. He makes a lot of money. It's not a stretch for him to have it. It's very nice.
My friends were around me, consoling me and trying to give me advice. And to be a part of that group it's the Atlanta fat cats.
-1998 interview

Also:

The phrase "use that good Southern common sense" is what you kidded John about, since he was anything but Southern, having been born and raised in Michigan; the phrase "fat cat" is what your mother, Nedra, used to call you after you and John became rich.
-Linda Hoffman-Pugh

 

[cynic]

I would like to find out more about Suzanne Savage if anyone can provide some information or links. TIA

Here's one:

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-susanne-savage.htm

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It’s certainly interesting that the Ramseys were familiar with the term, and perhaps the raconteur in the family might have been inclined to use it when writing the ransom note?

MIKE KANE: You're not the only fat cat around.
JOHN RAMSEY: Right. Those are the phrases that we, you know, later we thought we had heard from people around us who have tried to reconstruct who, where.
MIKE KANE: When you say we thought?
JOHN RAMSEY: Patsy and I.
MIKE KANE: Okay. And how was it that you heard?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, grow a brain, fat cats. We'd heard those before.
MIKE KANE: Were you ever able to --
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we had some names we came up with. We passed on (INAUDIBLE) our
friends in Atlanta, "Atlanta fat cats" later in that week.
MIKE KANE: When was that specifically?
JOHN RAMSEY: That was when she was back; when we were back for the funeral.
MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE) friends saying that about?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, when we went back, Ron Westmoreland had like a little reception after the funeral, and some of my friends were there, and he has a beautiful home in Atlanta. He makes a lot of money. It's not a stretch for him to have it. It's very nice.
My friends were around me, consoling me and trying to give me advice. And to be a part of that group it's the Atlanta fat cats.
-1998 interview

Also:

The phrase "use that good Southern common sense" is what you kidded John about, since he was anything but Southern, having been born and raised in Michigan; the phrase "fat cat" is what your mother, Nedra, used to call you after you and John became rich.
-Linda Hoffman-Pugh

If true then there is agreement between the RN author and JR that JR is a 'fat cat'. Why doesn't that seem very remarkable to me?

Nice job sidestepping the issue, that age can't be inferred from simple use of the term 'fat cat' because it was in use 100 years ago and is still in usage today. Interesting that it is more popular outside the U.S.

 

[MurriFlower]

Thanks Cynic

I've seen this on ACR plus read everything else relating to her on that site that I've been able to find (which is not a lot). There is some conflicting information here and I'd like to find out more.

Perhaps someone here can help? Here are a few:

SS employed her friend LW to help out after PR became ill, as she couldn't do it all, even though she was apparently staying there full time.

LW said SS left because she wasn't needed due to JBR starting Pre-K. There is no explanation as to why SS didn't stay on just as a housekeeper. LW said she (LW) left because there was too much work and she wasn't getting paid enough.

LW stated that SS had seen the children at one stage ('summer of 95') and it was worded as if PR did not know about this. On this occasion, SS offered to take JBR to McDonalds but JBR told her 'McDonalds makes you fat'. This was after the pageants had started as SS related this to JW, saying it was 'sad'.

SS said she had sat only twice since 1993, for PR's surprise birthday (Nov 1996) and the Access Christmas Party (1 Dec 1996). She said that she didn't know about the pageants till then, (Nov 1996) when she clearly knew in 1995.

SS and her family attended the same Church as the Ramseys, however, SS comented on how much JBR had changed when she saw her in Nov 1996.
I would have expected that she would have at least seen JBR at Church between 1993 and 1996.

SS had apparently spent 18 months 'on a mission for her Church'. Where was this and can it be corroborated?

LW said JBR never went in the basement as it 'freaked her out'--" it was cold, it was damp, it was cluttered, it was dark". SS said JBR liked to play and paint pictures in the basement. It wasn't until LHP was working there, sometime after Oct 1996, that PR took painting classes and JBR used to paint or draw with her.

PR said the bedwetting and soiling had started (and presumably the bladder infections) when she was ill in 1994 and SS had taken her to the Dr. LW said it was happening when she was there from March 1993 to Sept 1995 (when JBH was 2.5 to 4 yrs) but the bedwetting apparently got progressively worse between 4 and 6 yrs. LHP said JBR began wearing pull ups day and night in the summer of 1996.

There are others, but this is enough to go on with at present.