Intruder theories only. No posts from rdi members allowed

[Mama2JML]

The autopsy revealed the time of death based on rigor and the contents in the digestive tract.

The time of death recorded in the AR is 13:23 on 12.26.1996, but this is ~ when the body was located & brought upstairs. The ME did not determine actual TOD.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Right, it did give a window. Between 11pm and 1am. Not hours and hours after midnight.

I am not sure the point you are making here. I think I am lost..

 

[Tawny]

The time of death recorded in the AR is 13:23 on 12.26.1996, but this is ~ when the body was located & brought upstairs. The ME did not determine actual TOD.

Rigor begins to set in immediately and sets completely approximately 12 hours post-mortem based on conditions. She was stiff when she was found. She was indoors at room temperature, so 12 hours is about right (1pm, stiff when found). Rigor then begins to leave after ~ another 24 hours, and the rigor was beginning to leave by the time the autopsy was performed.

That is my understanding of how rigor and lividity works. If anyone knows differently, please set my ign'ant butt straight :floorlaugh:

I am not sure the point you are making here. I think I am lost..

You had mentioned earlier you believe she was murdered hours after midnight. The autopsy shows she was killed between 11pm and 1 am.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Rigor begins to set in immediately and sets completely approximately 12 hours post-mortem based on conditions. She was stiff when she was found. She was indoors at room temperature, so 12 hours is about right (1pm, stiff when found). Rigor then begins to leave after ~ another 24 hours, and the rigor was beginning to leave by the time the autopsy was performed.

That is my understanding of how rigor and lividity works. If anyone knows differently, please set my ign'ant butt straight :floorlaugh:



You had mentioned earlier you believe she was murdered hours after midnight. The autopsy shows she was killed between 11pm and 1 am.

I probably meant to write " in the hours after midnight.. "

 

[momof4ws]

Elaborate, please, & provide a source, please? (*What is "it"? Time of death, ingestion of pineapple, or?...)

I think it would be helpful to you to read all documented factual findings from the professionals who performed/read JBR's autopsy. I would also recommend you read books from authors who investigated this murder. There is alot to soak in. It doesn't sound like you have read enough to form an opinion on this murder based on fact. Before I came on this website, I read everything I could on this murder...three books...acandyrose...etc. before posting anything. I suggest you do the same and you may find that your views/opinions are unfounded. I don't think any of us felt from the get go that it was a Ramsey...it took digging and digging by some pretty awesome websleuths at that....to form some pretty substantial opinions based on the facts that were brought out. NOBODY wants to think a parent/sibling could do something like this...but good people do bad things out of anger, jeolousy, stress...whatever! It happens! I read everything I could about this murder over the past 6 years and I see pretty clearly that NO intruder did this...it was a remaining Ramsey.
If you are "testing an RDI" then you lose because RDIs have done their homework! You have not. Read all there is to read regarding this case then come back to post!

 

[Tawny]

The Ramsey's apparently also believe she was murdered on or before midnight, as the tombstone states Christmas day.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

The Ramsey's apparently also believe she was murdered on or before midnight, as the tombstone states Christmas day.

I don't think that has anything to do with it. I just think they put that down because it was the last day she was alive to them. I have seen other parents put down the day their child disappeared as opposed to when found or any date in between.

IT is as good as a guess as any with that time span.

 

[Tawny]

I found this, I hope this link is ok, I've seen it linked prior:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682513/The Body#AutopsyFindings

"Maximum stiffness is reached around 12-24 hours post mortem."

At the latest, she was murdered at 1ish am, based on what I'm reading at that link. JMO

 

[tezi]

The Ramsey's apparently also believe she was murdered on or before midnight, as the tombstone states Christmas day.

Yes. Although JR gave a convoluted explanation in DOI.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I found this, I hope this link is ok, I've seen it linked prior:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682513/The Body#AutopsyFindings

"Maximum stiffness is reached around 12-24 hours post mortem."

At the latest, she was murdered at 1ish am, based on what I'm reading at that link. JMO

IT depends though. I was reading about this before. Yes there are time frames but there are also conditional changes too. Temp and such.

 

[txsvicki]

ST's book is on google. I just read the excerpt about the handwriting change the other night. Readers can read quite a few pages of the book before it stops.

 

[Mama2JML]

Tawny, I wasn't sure if you were referring to the TOD or the pineapple. I am sure we all agree that JonBenet was murdered between 10 pm and 6 am. I agree with you, the TOD was probably b/w 11 pm and 1 am. The pineapple is a different story...

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I really have no interest in ST book. I feel like he made up his mind and led the investigation that way rather than investigated and then looked to see where it led.

 

[Tawny]

Tawny, I wasn't sure if you were referring to the TOD or the pineapple. I am sure we all agree that JonBenet was murdered between 10 pm and 6 am. I agree with you, the TOD was probably b/w 11 pm and 1 am. The pineapple is a different story...

I figured it was a misunderstanding. Sometimes, I'm not so clear in what I'm trying to say :floorlaugh:

 

[tezi]

I really have no interest in ST book. I feel like he made up his mind and led the investigation that way rather than investigated and then looked to see where it led.

You would be wrong. ST went where the evidence led him, not where the other way around.

JMO

 

[Mama2JML]

From CW vs. R, Steve Thomas Depo:

"Q. Pages 245, 246 you talk about your headlights sweeping across JonBenet's grave and you see the marble headstone "JonBenet Patricia Ramsey, August 6th, 1990 December 25, 1996. It was a clue from nowhere." And as I understand it, the clue was that the dates on the grave was a statement by the parents that JonBenet had died before midnight, right?

A. This is gravesite surveillance number two that we're talking about, right?

Q. I'm talking about -- I'm talking about right here on page 245 and then at the top of 246 "It was a clue from nowhere." "For some reason the parents were stating that JonBenet had died before midnight"?

A. Right.

MR. DIAMOND: Take as much time as you need to put that in context.

Q. (BY MR. WOOD) If the parents had placed the date of December 26, 1996 on the tombstone of their daughter, would you have concluded that it was a clue from nowhere because for some reason the parents were stating that JonBenet had died after midnight?

A. It was a clue I think in either event given the information immediately subsequent to, it was a clue from nowhere, I think -- no, it doesn't. But given the questionable time of death and how we were trying to tie that at times to the digestion of this pineapple certainly made this a clue.

Q. But it would have been a clue of the 26th if they had chosen the 26th, right, if they were saying it was a clue to you as a detective in a homicide case that they're stating she died after midnight because they put December 26th, that's the way you would have interpreted it, right?

A. I don't know because knowing what I knew then is different than what I know, but standing in my shoes in that cemetery on this particular night this was something unknown to us at the time because the Ramseys, to my knowledge, had never indicated a date of death and this thus became a clue from nowhere.

Q. Have you ever seen a tombstone where it has alternative dates of death, sir?

A. Never.

Q. Don't you think John and Patsy Ramsey had to make a choice, and they chose December 25th, that potentially had nothing to do with their trying to make a statement about when she died; did you ever consider that?

A. Actually, I heard them make just such a statement -- or make such a statement saying -- he was trying to make a statement putting down December 25.

Q. To remind people of what happened in effect at Christmas to his child?

A. That's my understanding.

Q. But not to state that she died before midnight. As I understand it, the only way under your clue analysis as a homicide detective that the Ramseys could have avoided being accused one way or the other would have been had they put on there "December 25 or December 26, 1996"; is my logic right?

A. No, it's not right. As I just explained knowing what I knew then standing there looking at it, it appeared to me that here was a clue that she died on December 25.

MR. WOOD: Why don't we take a break. I think I'm down to about 15 minutes, and I would like to kind of look and see where I am and what we might do to wrap this thing up.

VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is 5:45. We're going off the record."

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

You would be wrong. ST went where the evidence led him, not where the other way around.

JMO

I just don't see it that way. In everything I read, And all his interviews, I see a rush to judgment without the proof. It feels like he went looking for things that meant nothing to make them mean something.

 

[TroyinTX]

I actually have read his book and did not get that impression AT ALL.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I actually have read his book and did not get that impression AT ALL.

It is more than just his book for me. His interviews. his appearances, his thoughts on the case. And it is just my opinion on him. But I don't buy his theory on this case at all.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am certain that it was an outsider, that is true. I do not believe that anyone in the family killed her. And I believe the DNA proves that along with other things.
The Grand jury even bolstered my belief in that they did not order indictments of murder for Patsy or John either.

I don't have blinders on. I have looked at the evidence, Read the transcripts. I am not looking for converts. That is not my job.

I do believe there are many more people like me that believe that the R's are indeed innocent of this crime and this is the thread for them to discuss it.

I am sure you understand that the GJ DID order indictments for both parents- basically for covering up the crime, allowing JB to be in a situation that caused her death, and obstructing the justice. There is NO way a rational person would believe the parents would do any of this for an intruder.