Intruder theories only. No posts from rdi members allowed

[i.b.nora]

That is not true nor an accurate quote from the investigator. IT was off to another question and was not about this case.

This reporter was from the get go trying to harrass the interviewed. It is a ridiculous interview and not accurate.

There are people that think this may have something to do with this case and the person was never found.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jonbenet-dna-rules-out-parents/

That report is from 2004 after that interview (1999) and as you can see the perp was still not known or found.

The CBS link wants me to get their app in order to hopefully read the article, or maybe its the transcript of a 48 hours show? I am not inclined to want to get their app right now so perhaps you could provide here the part of the article that you are referring to?
Thanks in advance.

ETA: Oh, and the Reporter in the press conference transcript is not all the same reporter, it is many reporters. I saw the press conference myself on TV at the time it occured.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

The CBS link wants me to get their app in order to hopefully read the article, or maybe its the transcript of a 48 hours show? I am not inclined to want to get their app right now so perhaps you could provide here the part of the article that you are referring to?
Thanks in advance.

The article should be read in its entirety. The point is that this show is from 2004 AFTER that interview and still the intruder is not known or caught in Amy's case.
He was never found.

"Both JonBenet and Amy were sexually assaulted by an intruder at night in their homes -- within nine months of each other. Fiber evidence shows that JonBenet's attacker may have been wearing black, as was the man who attacked Amy. And there's the fact that both girls took lessons at the Dance West studio."

The point is there is enough that is similar and since he has never been caught it leaves open the possibility that it was the same person.

 

[BBB167893]

Kithcart who is no expert just assumed that it was someone that was in the house.

The experts that looked at it 3 out of 4 said it was NOT Patsy, The 4th said He did not think it was Patsy but that he could not tell for sure.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-4...&q=kithcart says patsy wrote the note&f=false

There is nothing that ever said that Patsy wrote the note with any real proof. Nothing. IT has all been urban rumor and lies to make her look like a monster.

OMO

Scarlett, that's a bunch of garbage, all of it. And if it comes from John Douglas, it's extra smelly.

Chet Ubowski did the most extensive analysis, and he told his boss, Pete Mang, that he thought she wrote it. NONE of the experts eliminated PR, and if Epstein's deposition is any indication, they didn't do that much work on it anyway.

Moreover, the odds of anyone from OUTSIDE the home having as many similarities, using the same phrases, words, and stylistics as someone KNOWN to be inside have got to be astronomical. One of of I-don't-know-how-many billions. And that's all I'll say.

 

[BBB167893]

I think that it should be reopened now. I think all the evidence should be reinvestigated by an impartial source, I think it should all be reexamined and put toward a GJ again.

I'd go further than that, Scarlett! I'd have that same Grand Jury investigate the Haddon Law Firm, Lou Smit, Lin Wood and the DA's office, past and present! That's what I'd do if I were in position to call the shots. I'd put 'em through the wringer! And the things that would squeeze out...

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

"Investigators consulted with six handwriting experts, four hired by police and two hired by the Ramseys. All six excluded John Ramsey as the author of the note, and none identified Patsy Ramsey as the writer.

"Rather, the experts' consensus was that she 'probably did not' write the ransom note," Carnes wrote."

http://www.examiner.com/article/if-not-patsy-ramsey-then-who-the-suspects-jonbenet-s-death

"Wolf and Hoffman, however, hired their own handwriting experts, Gideon Epstein and Cina Wong, who said they were "100 percent certain" Mrs. Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

"In contrast to the experts relied upon by defendants and by the Boulder Police Department, however, neither of these experts have ever seen or examined the original ransom note," Carnes wrote. "In fact, Mr. Epstein and Ms. Wong do not know what 'generation' copy of the ransom note they examined.""

 

[BBB167893]

"Investigators consulted with six handwriting experts, four hired by police and two hired by the Ramseys. All six excluded John Ramsey as the author of the note, and none identified Patsy Ramsey as the writer.

"Rather, the experts' consensus was that she 'probably did not' write the ransom note," Carnes wrote."

http://www.examiner.com/article/if-not-patsy-ramsey-then-who-the-suspects-jonbenet-s-death

Carnes got a LOT of things wrong, Scarlett. Mostly because Hoffman didn't bother to challenge the things Lin Wood said. This is one of them. In fact, Hoffman DID challenge Wood to produce the actual reports from the examiners to prove that they said what this article claims, and Hal Haddon wouldn't allow him to have them, even AFTER the Grand Jury secrecy law was struck down. That ought to tell you something.

There's also this:

Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued Fox over: "Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey." It is not clear who the source for this report was, but it would appear to contradict the sworn testimony of Alex Hunter. In his deposition for the Wolf v. Ramsey libel case, Alex Hunter acknowledged that these experts had concluded chances of Patsy writing the note were "very low" and also asserted there were other individuals who were under suspicion whose handwriting was analyzed that were not eliminated as the author of the note.
Schiller's Account. But Schiller claimed "The police never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, 'Patsy wrote the note.' The CBI saw this as another missed opportunity" (Schiller 1999a:536-537; quotation and source provided by Internet poster The Punisher). Schiller further notes: "experts from the CBI presented their evaluations into evidence, including Chet Ubowski. He also told Pete Mang, his boss at the CBI, that his gut told him it was her handwriting" (Schiller 1999a:740; quotation and source provided by Internet poster The Punisher).

And, frankly, even if it WERE true, there are so many problem with the handwriting analysis in this case, it's mind-boggling. For one thing, the two experts hired by the Rs barely even GLANCED at it. They did their analysis in less than four hours. That's hardly enough time to get started! Take a look at my "Expert Reassessment" thread sometime.

Also, as Epstein pointed out, these two likely influenced the rest of the analysts. If that's true, God help us all.

"Wolf and Hoffman, however, hired their own handwriting experts, Gideon Epstein and Cina Wong, who said they were "100 percent certain" Mrs. Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

Actually, Wong NEVER claimed that. Also, you left out Larry Ziegler, Tom Miller and Richard Williams.

"In contrast to the experts relied upon by defendants and by the Boulder Police Department, however, neither of these experts have ever seen or examined the original ransom note," Carnes wrote. "In fact, Mr. Epstein and Ms. Wong do not know what 'generation' copy of the ransom note they examined.""

That's a fair point, but even then, I would say this: the only real difference between a copy and the original in terms of handwriting analysis is that you can't tell pressure and speed from a copy. Which IS important, usually. In this case, though, the note was written with a pen made of yielding, bleeding material, which would throw off pressure and speed results from the start.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I stand by my information. Apparently the Judge felt that it held water and that it was an intruder also.

In her 2003 ruling, U.S. District Judge Julie Carnes remarked on the grand jury proceedings: "The District Attorney, and all other prosecutors involved in the proceedings believed at that time there was insufficient evidence to bring charges against any person, including defendants in connection with the murder."

She agreed that it was not The R's that did this.

A District judge. Not a reporter or a lay man but a judge.

http://www.examiner.com/article/evidence-jonbenet-ramsey-case-points-to-intruder

 

[Tawny]

I thought Examiner articles weren't allowed.

 

[Venom]

From the above mentioned article:

"Police also found a baseball bat not owned by the Ramseys on the north side of the house with fiber on it consistent with fibers found in the carpet in the basement where JonBenet's body was found."

How do the police know the bat wasn't owned by the R's for sure?

 

[tezi]

I thought Examiner articles weren't allowed.

Well, neither are links to questionable blogs, but yet, here we are...:floorlaugh:

I am sorry Tawny....I am just funning with you....:loveyou::loveyou:

 

[tezi]

From the above mentioned article:

"Police also found a baseball bat not owned by the Ramseys on the north side of the house with fiber on it consistent with fibers found in the carpet in the basement where JonBenet's body was found."

How do the police know the bat wasn't owned by the R's for sure?

Just a wild guess here, the R's ID'd it? I know, I know....

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

"Civil Action file No. 00-CIV-1187 (JEC) at 90.

On April 7, 2003, Boulder District Attorney Keenan issued a statement in which she concurred with Judge Carnes' opinion, stating in pertinent part:

I have carefully reviewed the Order of United States District Court Judge Julie Carnes in the civi1 case of Wolf v. John Ramsey and Patricia Ramsey. I agree with the Court's conclusion that "the weight of the evidence is more consistent with a theory that an intruder murdered JonBenet than it is with a theory that Mrs. Ramsey did so."

Plaintiffs contend that defendant negligently broadcast the news segment and that defendant broadcast the news segment with actual malice.

Plaintiffs seek monetary compensation for the damage to their reputations and for punitive damages to punish and deter defendant.

The issues in the case include, but are not limited to, the following: (1) whether the gist of the televised news segment is false and defamatory; (2) whether statements published and broadcast by defendant about plaintiffs were false; (3) whether statements published and broadcast by defendant defamed
plaintiffs; (4) whether the false and defamatory statements were negligently published and broadcast by defendant; (5) whether the false and defamatory statements published and broadcast by

- 5 -
"

http://www.acandyrose.com/05272004Plaintiffs-Initial-Disclosure.htm

http://www.acandyrose.com/04142003judgerulling-judicialanalysis.txt

Same information from the article in case it is not allowed.

The Judge ruled more likely than not it was an intruder.

 

[Mama2JML]

Carnes got a LOT of things wrong, Scarlett. Mostly because Hoffman didn't bother to challenge the things Lin Wood said. This is one of them. In fact, Hoffman DID challenge Wood to produce the actual reports from the examiners to prove that they said what this article claims, and Hal Haddon wouldn't allow him to have them, even AFTER the Grand Jury secrecy law was struck down. That ought to tell you something.

There's also this:

Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued Fox over: "Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey." It is not clear who the source for this report was, but it would appear to contradict the sworn testimony of Alex Hunter. In his deposition for the Wolf v. Ramsey libel case, Alex Hunter acknowledged that these experts had concluded chances of Patsy writing the note were "very low" and also asserted there were other individuals who were under suspicion whose handwriting was analyzed that were not eliminated as the author of the note.

Schiller's Account. But Schiller claimed "The police never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, 'Patsy wrote the note.' The CBI saw this as another missed opportunity" (Schiller 1999a:536-537; quotation and source provided by Internet poster The Punisher).

Schiller further notes: "experts from the CBI presented their evaluations into evidence, including Chet Ubowski. He also told Pete Mang, his boss at the CBI, that his gut told him it was her handwriting" (Schiller 1999a:740; quotation and source provided by Internet poster The Punisher).

^^^BBM

Is this a partial transcript or the summary of a televised appearance? I'm confused by your source for the source to the source, KWIM? :whoosh:

Can you share a link to the original source(s), please?

 

[BBB167893]

I stand by my information. Apparently the Judge felt that it held water and that it was an intruder also.

In her 2003 ruling, U.S. District Judge Julie Carnes remarked on the grand jury proceedings: "The District Attorney, and all other prosecutors involved in the proceedings believed at that time there was insufficient evidence to bring charges against any person, including defendants in connection with the murder."

She agreed that it was not The R's that did this.

A District judge. Not a reporter or a lay man but a judge.

http://www.examiner.com/article/evidence-jonbenet-ramsey-case-points-to-intruder

I'm not arguing that, Scarlett. Even Mike Kane said she could not have ruled any other way because she could only rule on what was put before her, whether it was true or not. It's not the judge's duty to investigate the points put forth by the opposing sides. If one side doesn't challenge something, it has to be accepted as fact, whether it is or not. Civil suits are notoriously bad for finding truth. It's usually a case of which side is better at bulls*&!.

 

[BBB167893]

^^^BBM

Is this a partial transcript or the summary of a televised appearance? I'm confused by your source for the source to the source, KWIM? :whoosh:

Can you share a link to the original source(s), please?

It's a partial transcript. But I have not altered or omitted it in any way. It helps to remember that Carol McKinley greatly expanded on this in an interview she did for WS Radio. You can probably still find it.

The source was a news bite on FOX News on December 26, 2002. I'll share a link to the original source as soon as I can find one! I did copy the transcript down when it happened, though. Maybe I'll have to post the whole thing. In the meantime, here's an early Christmas present:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/08/15/websleuths-radio

and here:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226144"]An "Expert" Reassessment - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Mama2JML]

It's a partial transcript. But I have not altered or omitted it in any way. It helps to remember that Carol McKinley greatly expanded on this in an interview she did for WS Radio. You can probably still find it.

The source was a news bite on FOX News on December 26, 2002. I'll share a link to the original source as soon as I can find one! I did copy the transcript down when it happened, though. Maybe I'll have to post the whole thing.

Thanks. The problem is the information McKinley shared is not sourced. Anonymous sources, via media commentators, don't meet reliability standards.

 

[tezi]

Thanks. The problem is the information McKinley shared is not sourced. Anonymous sources, via media commentators, don't meet reliability standards.

That's rich...

Seriously, this whole thread is nothing but media commentators and carp like that.

JMO

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks. The problem is the information McKinley shared is not sourced. Anonymous sources, via media commentators, don't meet reliability standards.

Oh, but it IS sourced, Mama2JML. In the interview I provided, she made clear that Chet Ubowski was her source. It's quite interesting.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Thanks. The problem is the information McKinley shared is not sourced. Anonymous sources, via media commentators, don't meet reliability standards.

Exactly. It all goes back to more he said she said..

Best to get it right from the horses mouth.

I like looking at real evidence.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

^^^BBM

Is this a partial transcript or the summary of a televised appearance? I'm confused by your source for the source to the source, KWIM? :whoosh:

Can you share a link to the original source(s), please?

The thing is that there is no one that can prove she wrote that note. There is no definitive ruling she wrote it. IT is all speculation and made up.

It is sad that so much has been left to go so long as fact when it is just opinion.

We have A DA saying it was not them, With DNA back up. We have this Judge who says it was an intruder. WE have an intruder that hit another girl that went to JBR dance school. One that was never caught. We have DNA in two places that matches, One that is mingled with JBR.

That all adds up to one thing for me. Someone other than the R's. OMO