Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[tovarisch]

I believe the ransom note was written in the Ramsey house, on their paper wasn't it? An intruder would not write a note that long whilst sitting in the victims kitchen. You would think that would be something that was taken care of prior to entering the house. And you think the Ramsey's were cooperating? They simply refused to be interviewed by police! Why would they do that? Didn't they want to find their daughters murderer? Obviously not. Their money and power got them the kid glove treatment and they didn't speak to police until they'd had the opportunity to go over their story 1000 times. Anybody else would have been 0in cuffs and at the station within hours of finding the body.

Ramseys were cooperative to the extend allowed by their lawyers. When you hire a lawyer he becomes your mouth and your brain, you are not allowed by the contract with the lawyer make your own moves, your lawyer does it. Ramsey`s lawyers saw where the investigation was going and protected their clients, which was only right and smart. 20 years was enough time for the task force to convict Ramseys, lawyered of not, it did not happened. It tells that that it was a dead end, or beating the dead horse, some can do it for the next 20 years , but it leads nowhere.
It`s time to look at other directions with the same intensity that they put on RDI.

 

[tovarisch]

Patsy said once- put it up or shut up. Evidently, not much to put up on the table, even 20 years later.

 

[andreww]

That may be your opinion. I'm of the belief that if your child is murdered you would do whatever it took to fin the killers. This certainly wouldn't include lawyering up immediately. If the Ramsey's were truly innocent, what harm would there be in sitting down with LE individually and giving a detailed description of the events of the previous night? We came home, gave the kids a snack, brushed their teeth, put them to bed, then watched TV for an hour and fell asleep? Those would be the actions of normal innocent people! The police needed to eliminate the Ramsey's as suspects as in cases like this, family members are the first to be suspected. If all if their stories jibe, then they will look elsewhere. Its a simple process and it benefits everybody involved. The only reason why they wouldn't cooperate is if they were hiding something.

The grand jury concluded that there was enough evidence to indicate that the Ramsey's were at the very least involved in covering up the crime. Why would that be if they didn't do it? I don't know what Boulder police were thinking allowing the Ramsey's to stay in that house when it was obviously a crime scene then not taking them in for questioning. Yes, the possibility is there for it being an intruder, but the Ramsey's silence in those early days has guaranteed that a cloud of suspicion will be over their heads until the day they die because the "odds" say they did it, and they didn't take the opportunity to prove they didn't.

 

[andreww]

Patsy said once- put it up or shut up. Evidently, not much to put up on the table, even 20 years later.

And Patsy didn't say "Put up or shut up", that was Lin Wood talking to that hard hitting reporter Larry King.

Ramsey attorney Lin Wood followed up on CNN's Larry King Live, when he demanded that Boulder County special prosecutor Michael Kane "explain why a grand jury did not indict either of the Ramseys after a 13-month investigation."

He added that Kane should either "put up or shut up" about charging the Ramseys.

And he was obviously lying because the Grand Jury did choose to indict the Ramseys.

 

[andreww]

Again, Patsy and LW could afford to be smug in a controlled atmosphere like Larry King Live. The new the Ramsey's had destroyed the evidence or removed it from the house, and that the police had no immediate statement to trip them up on. All MOO.

 

[tovarisch]

I believe that ST in his book stated that Patsy said bring it on, put on the table and lets make it over, something like this, I gave the book to the local library and can not quote, but she said-- put it on, in different words. I`m pretty sure. Also she said if she knew that John molested JB, she would knock his head out. Her character was shining through her words, she was a brave straight young woman and not so polished as Mr. Ramsey. She told what was on her mind. JB was like her mother, I believe, dared to fight over the outfit being only 6 years old.

Why lawyering up ? Because that`s how it works, without lawyer you are exposed to unpredictable outcome. Like our lawyer told us, my hus and I, when we were outstered by hus`s siblings from the inheritance, and we lawyered up to take what belonged to us, he told us that justice often fails, because human is human and we all make mistakes.( justice in Casey Anthony case). Ramseys could not allow this to happen, because they had Burke , only 9 y. old to bring up, no luxury of time to go to prison for nothing, even temporary.

 

[Global Justice Ops]

That may be your opinion. I'm of the belief that if your child is murdered you would do whatever it took to fin the killers. This certainly wouldn't include lawyering up immediately. If the Ramsey's were truly innocent, what harm would there be in sitting down with LE individually and giving a detailed description of the events of the previous night? We came home, gave the kids a snack, brushed their teeth, put them to bed, then watched TV for an hour and fell asleep? Those would be the actions of normal innocent people! The police needed to eliminate the Ramsey's as suspects as in cases like this, family members are the first to be suspected. If all if their stories jibe, then they will look elsewhere. Its a simple process and it benefits everybody involved. The only reason why they wouldn't cooperate is if they were hiding something.

The grand jury concluded that there was enough evidence to indicate that the Ramsey's were at the very least involved in covering up the crime. Why would that be if they didn't do it? I don't know what Boulder police were thinking allowing the Ramsey's to stay in that house when it was obviously a crime scene then not taking them in for questioning. Yes, the possibility is there for it being an intruder, but the Ramsey's silence in those early days has guaranteed that a cloud of suspicion will be over their heads until the day they die because the "odds" say they did it, and they didn't take the opportunity to prove they didn't.

They had just lost their daughter. Think about how it must feel to wake up one morning and be confronted with the fact that someone came into your house in the middle of the night, killed your daughter, and left undetected. Commander Eller had no problem giving them a day or two to let it sink in, so why does everyone else.

The Ramseys were alerted within a week by a close friend that the Boulder PD was targeting them, you can’t blame them for setting up defenses.

People put too much emphasis on what that Grand Jury made up of civilians with no verifiable expertise in criminology, forensics and related subjects, decided to do. Even if the indictment was signed and things progressed into a trial, the Ramseys could never be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. There is a complete absence of credible evidence that points the finger at them, and a good amount of credible evidence that indicates an intruder.

 

[tovarisch]

The ransom note was most likely written in advance. I highly doubt that killer wrote it after he killed JonBenet. Either he went to kidnap her and something caused him to abort the plan at the last minute or the true purpose of the ransom note was to stall the Ramsey family and police from searching the house and launching a manhunt after discovering a body. He might have been trying to buy as much time as he could for all we know.

The Ramseys provided interviews, hair samples, blood samples, saliva and handwriting samples. Their entire house was at Boulder PD's disposal. They cooperated more than any other suspect and they were never charged. That should tell you something.

I think your theory has a sense, and it gave me new thoughts. The ransom might be written in advance by somebody who hired those criminals to bring JB to him, he wanted her as his Christmas present, provided them with ransom to leave at the house. Killers accidently miscalculated the head blow, when took her to the basement, realized that she was dead, tried some torture on her to see vital moves, saw that she was dying or dead. Nothing they could do, quickly constructed garrott, killed JB, humiliated the body and did not know what to do with ransom. Left it anyway, they could not re-write it. Went to the old man, told what happened and asked for their money, not big amount, something like 5,000.The old man was mad, but probably paid anyway. The ransom`s original purpose was to buy time for an old man He needed couple hours to use JB and get rid of JB`s body. That`s how I see if it was written in advance, and not changed after everything went wrong.
This mystery drives me crazy.

 

[Global Justice Ops]

I think your theory has a sense, and it gave me new thoughts. The ransom might be written in advance by somebody who hired those criminals to bring JB to him, he wanted her as his Christmas present, provided them with ransom to leave at the house. Killers accidently miscalculated the head blow, when took her to the basement, realized that she was dead, tried some torture on her to see vital moves, saw that she was dying or dead. Nothing they could do, quickly constructed garrott, killed JB, humiliated the body and did not know what to do with ransom. Left it anyway, they could not re-write it. Went to the old man, told what happened and asked for their money, not big amount, something like 5,000.The old man was mad, but probably paid anyway. The ransom`s original purpose was to buy time for an old man He needed couple hours to use JB and get rid of JB`s body. That`s how I see if it was written in advance, and not changed after everything went wrong.
This mystery drives me crazy.

It drives me crazy. Being in the military not many things scare me but the more I looked into this case the more I found myself looking over my shoulder at night. All of the above is possible.

I think the intruder changed his mind in the basement or on the way to the basement. The ransom note was left at the bottom of the spiral staircase, JonBenet was brought down that spiral staircase, we know this because the garland found in her hair matches the garland on the sides of the staircase. This was noted in the autopsy and further addressed later on.

As the intruder brought her down the very last step, either him or another person that was there placed the note on the last step. I am leaning towards a 2nd intruder placing it there because the papers were not crumpled, bent or folded. If a grown man is holding a 45 lb. child and three pieces of paper at the same time, I would expect the papers to be wrinkled somehow.

After placing the note, on the way to the basement or in it, something happened. When the plan to collect the ransom was aborted, the sexual assault was probably what they/he did to at least get something out of the whole ordeal. There were no reported items missing from the house as far as I know.

 

[tovarisch]

It drives me crazy. Being in the military not many things scare me but the more I looked into this case the more I found myself looking over my shoulder at night. All of the above is possible.

I think the intruder changed his mind in the basement or on the way to the basement. The ransom note was left at the bottom of the spiral staircase, JonBenet was brought down that spiral staircase, we know this because the garland found in her hair matches the garland on the sides of the staircase. This was noted in the autopsy and further addressed later on.

As the intruder brought her down the very last step, either him or another person that was there placed the note on the last step. I am leaning towards a 2nd intruder placing it there because the papers were not crumpled, bent or folded. If a grown man is holding a 45 lb. child and three pieces of paper at the same time, I would expect the papers to be wrinkled somehow.

After placing the note, on the way to the basement or in it, something happened. When the plan to collect the ransom was aborted, the sexual assault was probably what they/he did to at least get something out of the whole ordeal. There were no reported items missing from the house as far as I know.

OK, it`s good we are both crazy. Lets go further with our craziness. Tell me based on your theory, where they exited? My thinking it was butler door, discovered opened in the morning, FL accidently left on the very crowded counter next to the door, easy to forget in the dark, and FL served it purpose, thus was forgotten. My thinking that the ransom was the last step in the crime, written there or brought to the house , regardless. Do you think they placed the note before realizing that their plan of kidnapping had failed? And did not want to return to the kitchen ?
The other question is, if you think they were authors of the ransom, what 118,000 meant for them? Just that`s how their financial sheet happened to summarize it, cost, labor, pay to driver and so on... and happened to be total 118,000 ?))))))) Or something more sinister ,like mocking J. Ramsey, showing their knowledge of his business ?

 

[Global Justice Ops]

The point of entry & exit was probably the basement window below the grate. James Kolar’s theory about the cobwebs indicating that nobody passed through there is laughable. Spiders can reform their cobwebs 30 minutes after they have been destroyed. The crime scene video in which Kolar observed the cobweb in was taken on the night of 12/26/1992, many hours after the crime had occurred. I have nothing but respect for Kolar, but I can’t agree with him on that.

Further evidence that indicated that an intruder passed through that window was the amount of disturbance on the outside frame of the middle window, the leaves and dirt had been displaced but the debris on the bordering two window frames had not been. There was also debris observed inside the basement, below the open window, as if they had been dragged in. The scuff mark and suitcase are well known, so I won’t even discuss it.

I don’t think the killer used the butler door at all. The plan was to get to the basement. That is where JonBenet was found and that is where our most likely point of entry and exit is.

As for the ransom amount, I think the killer did indeed know about John Ramsey’s business. The amount is almost the same as the bonus he received. The ransom note itself addresses his business.

“We respect your business, but not the country that it serves.”
They knew about his business and probably a lot about him also.

 

[Mama2JML]

Interesting thoughts; thanks for sharing!

I don't really have "set in stone" theories regarding any aspect of this case, BUT I find it easy to accept the perp...

-was not a Ramsey.

-did not really intend to kidnap JB.

-knew the Ramseys, but they did not know him.

-one perpetrator committed the acts, but someone else may have known about the perp's "desires" specific to JB.

-did not enter the home via the train room window on the 26th.

-exited via the BP door.

I am most confident the evidentiary DNA, the unsourced prints/fibers/hairs, and the lack of physical, forensic evidence linked to the family indicates, at bare minimum, a 5th person was in the Ramsey's home that night & HE had unlawful contact with the victim.


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[elannia]

Interesting thoughts; thanks for sharing!

I don't really have "set in stone" theories regarding any aspect of this case, BUT I find it easy to accept the perp...

-was not a Ramsey.

-did not really intend to kidnap JB.

-knew the Ramseys, but they did not know him.

-one perpetrator committed the acts, but someone else may have known about the perp's "desires" specific to JB.

-did not enter the home via the train room window on the 26th.

-exited via the BP door.

I am most confident the evidentiary DNA, the unsourced prints/fibers/hairs, and the lack of physical, forensic evidence linked to the family indicates, at bare minimum, a 5th person was in the Ramsey's home that night & HE had unlawful contact with the victim.


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Who do you think this 5th person was?

 

[Mama2JML]

Who do you think this 5th person was?

I don't know.


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[tovarisch]

Interesting thoughts; thanks for sharing!

I don't really have "set in stone" theories regarding any aspect of this case, BUT I find it easy to accept the perp...

-was not a Ramsey.

-did not really intend to kidnap JB.

-knew the Ramseys, but they did not know him.

-one perpetrator committed the acts, but someone else may have known about the perp's "desires" specific to JB.

-did not enter the home via the train room window on the 26th.

-exited via the BP door.

I am most confident the evidentiary DNA, the unsourced prints/fibers/hairs, and the lack of physical, forensic evidence linked to the family indicates, at bare minimum, a 5th person was in the Ramsey's home that night & HE had unlawful contact with the victim.


I share the same opinion 100% on every line, except there were 2 unID-ed shoe prints next to JB`s body. Thank you for your post.

 

[andreww]

The strongest evidence of an intruder is the single pubic hair found on the blanket. But did it come from an intruder? Could it have come from a house guest at the open house, or from the Whites party. Maybe it's been on the floor of that basement for years?

You say you believe the intruder left via the bp door? Then why stack the suitcase under the window? This intruder felt comfortable enough to pen a rambling RN but felt compelled to climb on a suitcase out a broken window? PR commented that she didn't leave the tea bag in the glass, are we to believe the intruder boiled water and made tea while the Ramsey's slept?? It all just seems far fetched. Especially when you factor in the uncooperative parents.



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[andreww]

Here's what I don't get about the intruder theory. The ransom note was written on Ramsey paper with a Ramsey pen. The paintbrush and the rope were also the Ramsey's. The tea bag was claimed by PR not to be hers. The size 12s were hidden away in the basement somewhere. Now if I were to send you in to a strange house and ask you to find all these things in the dark, could you?

Take it a step further. Why a paintbrush? The only really needed a stick of some sort. A spoon or knife or pen (that they already had) would have worked just as well. Sitting at my desk here I see about 10 things that would have worked. But they went directly to PRs paintbox? Lets talk about the duct tape and rope. How did they cut it? Nylon cord can be cut in two ways, with scissors or a knife, or with a cigarette lighter. By the frayed end, we can assume they used a knife or scissors. So where are they? Where is the rest of the rope? We know it was a new package because the one end still had the factory melted end. How did they cut the duct tape? Either with scissors or with their teeth, but as no DNA was found, we'll assume again that they used a knife or scissors. So where is the remainder of the tape? The flashlight was thought to be the Ramsey's. How did they know where it was?

So if it was an intruder, it seems like they showed up empty handed, but pretty much knew where to find everything that they needed. They take the tape and rope and scissors or knife with them, yet they leave the pen and flashlight laying in plain view.

Lets assume that this is a kidnapping gone bad. Perhaps the intruder is already in the basement when the Ramsey's get home. They go to bed. He then goes to the main floor and makes tea and pens a three page ransom note. Then up to JBs room where he possibly uses a stun gun to subdue her, then carries her to the basement. WHY??? Was he going to push her through that broken window then climb through himself? So maybe JB wakes again and screams. Flashlight to the head. Down to the basement to re-evaluate the situation. JB seems to be mortally wounded. Lets go look for rope and a paintbrush to manufacture a weapon to finish the job. Time to leave? Nope, lets sexually assault her the go hunt for some ill fitting panties.

I really don't see how any of the available evidence can be put together to form a cohesive chain of events. IMO much of the evidence has been added after the fact to throw off investigators.

 

[Mama2JML]

Here's what I don't get about the intruder theory. The ransom note was written on Ramsey paper with a Ramsey pen. The paintbrush and the rope were also the Ramsey's.

The RN was penned on paper from a notepad belonging to the Ramseys, with a sharpie found in a cup the Ramseys used to store writing utensils. And, a portion of the broken paintbrush used to create the 'garrote' was found in Patsy's paint tote, but a third piece (the tip) of the paintbrush was missing. The nylon cord has not been sourced, nor was any remaining cord found in the home; Same with the tape. The rope found in JAR's room remains unsourced, as well.

The tea bag was claimed by PR not to be hers. The size 12s were hidden away in the basement somewhere. Now if I were to send you in to a strange house and ask you to find all these things in the dark, could you?

The tea bag may or may not have come from the home, but none of the Ramseys recalled making tea then placing the bag in a glass on the table.

Patsy seemed to think she placed the size 12s in JonBenet's drawer.

Take it a step further. Why a paintbrush? The only really needed a stick of some sort. A spoon or knife or pen (that they already had) would have worked just as well. Sitting at my desk here I see about 10 things that would have worked. But they went directly to PRs paintbox?

I agree, but the 'stick'/handle was an unnecessary addition altogether if strangulation was the only goal.

Lets talk about the duct tape and rope. How did they cut it? Nylon cord can be cut in two ways, with scissors or a knife, or with a cigarette lighter. By the frayed end, we can assume they used a knife or scissors. So where are they? Where is the rest of the rope? We know it was a new package because the one end still had the factory melted end. How did they cut the duct tape? Either with scissors or with their teeth, but as no DNA was found, we'll assume again that they used a knife or scissors. So where is the remainder of the tape? The flashlight was thought to be the Ramsey's. How did they know where it was?

Good questions. I have many of the same.

So if it was an intruder, it seems like they showed up empty handed, but pretty much knew where to find everything that they needed. They take the tape and rope and scissors or knife with them, yet they leave the pen and flashlight laying in plain view.

Not quite empty handed; cord, stun gun, possibly a bat, and likely more.

Lets assume that this is a kidnapping gone bad. Perhaps the intruder is already in the basement when the Ramsey's get home. They go to bed. He then goes to the main floor and makes tea and pens a three page ransom note. Then up to JBs room where he possibly uses a stun gun to subdue her, then carries her to the basement. WHY??? Was he going to push her through that broken window then climb through himself? So maybe JB wakes again and screams. Flashlight to the head. Down to the basement to re-evaluate the situation. JB seems to be mortally wounded. Lets go look for rope and a paintbrush to manufacture a weapon to finish the job. Time to leave? Nope, lets sexually assault her the go hunt for some ill fitting panties.

I really don't see how any of the available evidence can be put together to form a cohesive chain of events. IMO much of the evidence has been added after the fact to throw off investigators.

Maybe it wasn't a kidnapping gone wrong at all. Maybe the plan went exactly as intended. Who knows?...

 

[andreww]

Wasn't it very possible that PR purchased the cord from the hardware store? Apparently a item of that exact value was purchased by her and although the entry wasn't itemized, it came from the same department and PR could not recall what she bought. Again, same story with the flashlight, "maybe its ours, maybe its not". This is typical behaviour of someone who is guilty, being vague and uncooperative on important details.

 

[Global Justice Ops]

Here's what I don't get about the intruder theory. The ransom note was written on Ramsey paper with a Ramsey pen. The paintbrush and the rope were also the Ramsey's. The tea bag was claimed by PR not to be hers. The size 12s were hidden away in the basement somewhere. Now if I were to send you in to a strange house and ask you to find all these things in the dark, could you?

Take it a step further. Why a paintbrush? The only really needed a stick of some sort. A spoon or knife or pen (that they already had) would have worked just as well. Sitting at my desk here I see about 10 things that would have worked. But they went directly to PRs paintbox? Lets talk about the duct tape and rope. How did they cut it? Nylon cord can be cut in two ways, with scissors or a knife, or with a cigarette lighter. By the frayed end, we can assume they used a knife or scissors. So where are they? Where is the rest of the rope? We know it was a new package because the one end still had the factory melted end. How did they cut the duct tape? Either with scissors or with their teeth, but as no DNA was found, we'll assume again that they used a knife or scissors. So where is the remainder of the tape? The flashlight was thought to be the Ramsey's. How did they know where it was?

So if it was an intruder, it seems like they showed up empty handed, but pretty much knew where to find everything that they needed. They take the tape and rope and scissors or knife with them, yet they leave the pen and flashlight laying in plain view.

Lets assume that this is a kidnapping gone bad. Perhaps the intruder is already in the basement when the Ramsey's get home. They go to bed. He then goes to the main floor and makes tea and pens a three page ransom note. Then up to JBs room where he possibly uses a stun gun to subdue her, then carries her to the basement. WHY??? Was he going to push her through that broken window then climb through himself? So maybe JB wakes again and screams. Flashlight to the head. Down to the basement to re-evaluate the situation. JB seems to be mortally wounded. Lets go look for rope and a paintbrush to manufacture a weapon to finish the job. Time to leave? Nope, lets sexually assault her the go hunt for some ill fitting panties.

I really don't see how any of the available evidence can be put together to form a cohesive chain of events. IMO much of the evidence has been added after the fact to throw off investigators.

She never said the teabag wasn't hers. She said she had never had placed a teabag into a glass like that before. As for the paintbrush being used, it was convenient. The box was right outside the room where JonBenet was found. He probably decided to kill her right there in the basement, and saw that a paintbrush would be ideal for his garrote.

You are assuming the Ramsey family placed everything in their house in random places and they did not. If he needed a knife or scissors he probably went to the kitchen. The same would go for anything else he needed. He went to the obvious location. And you are forgetting that most people theorize that he came into the house when the Ramsey family left that evening to go to the White's house. He would have had time to case the place and become familiar with it. He probably wrote the ransom note during this time as well.

The intruder did not come empty handed he brought a stun gun, tape, and cord with him. The flashlight probably belonged to him also. As for how he cut those items from their original roles, is anyone’s guess. You don’t know if the cord was ever attached to anything else when he came in. He could have only brought in a certain amount he needed. The rope WAS NOT the Ramsey family’s property. It was found in the guest bedroom and they never had seen it before. This guest bedroom was right above the driveway and an ideal place for an intruder to wait and know when the family would be returning. The guest bedroom was also a few feet from the JonBenet’s room.

The suitcase that was found below the window had contents in it and fibers on those contents matched fibers found on JonBenet's clothing. Perhaps he tried to place her inside and push her out?

The head blow came last. I don’t see how anyone can argue differently. She was strangled with so much force that all blood flow was cut off to her brain. So when she was struck there, probably as a way for the killer to make sure she was dead, she bled very little.