Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[ScarlettScarpetta]

IT is only your opinion also. The facts are that Patsy did not write that note/QUOTE]


Were you there? Because unless you were, you cannot say that is a fact. And nowhere have I ever seen this claimed as being 100% a fact.

There is no proof she wrote that note.

 

[midwest mama]

IT is only your opinion also. The facts are that Patsy did not write that note and even the experts showed that it was not her that wrote.

The problem in this case is that the police let people run rampant, did not fully search or secure crime scene and so they botched this from the start. There is DNA that someone else was there. There is evidence that that someone else was there. There was most likely more evidence that was destroyed because of bad police work.

The problem is that people use the R's because they are convenient. I still believe this case will be solved and when it is lots of people will have to choke on their horrible accusations of all the R's.

There is truth to support everything you say, Scarlett. I will not disagree with your assessment, since your opinions on this case are just as valid as anyone's.

I would be happy to choke on my horrible accusations against the R's if this case is solved in my lifetime because at least there will be justice for JonBenet, and it is deserved.

What I can say, without disrespecting the IDI standpoint on this thread, is that IF there is an arrest and ensuing conviction of anyone for JB's murder, I would NOT be surprised to also learn that in conjunction, based on what we have learned about the GJ true bills, John Ramsey knows exactly who killed his daughter and why.

His long continued years of relative silence in the quest for her killer, which he early avowed he would spend his entire life doing, speak more loudly than if he was coming out of the shadows a few times a year to keep the public updated on his continued attempts to find "the monster".

 

[aussiesheila2]

From the deposition of Steve Thomas in Wolf v. Ramseys:

"Q. There were no black fibers that were found on the duct tape that were said to be consistent with the fibers on Patsy Ramsey's red and black jacket, were there?

A. It's my understanding that the four fibers were red in color."​

​

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Thanks Mama, I know Steve Thomas said that but IMO his knowledge of the evidence was very shaky and I believe he was wrong in his recollection of the fibres. I don’t think he was a details man and I think what he stated was wrong in this and in alot of other instances.

Notice that when asked about the fibres on the duct tape he does say “It is my understanding . .” and not “I know for a fact . .” when he talks about them so IMO he doesn't sound very convinced himself about what was there. It doesn't even seem like he ever even saw any reports about the fibres let alone read them:


Also from the deposition of Steve Thomas in Wolf v. Ramseys:

Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Well, you know what, I'm just confusing the issue. I'm going to drop that line of questioning and just ask you, did you have occasion to actually see the CBI report that indicated that there was a likely match for Patsy's blazer with the acrylic fiber found on the duct tape?

A. (Steve Thomas) Not that I recall. Detective Trujillo, who was in charge of all the evidence and forensic testing in this case, he and Wickman verbally offered that to the rest of the detective team.



I have read in PMPT some different ‘facts’ about the red and black fibres, which I am more inclined to believe.

From PMPT:
“Special agent Douglas Deedrick, an FBI hair and fiber specialist notified the BPD that he had found what seemed to be red and black microscopic fiber traces on the duct tape.”

From PMPT again:
“Meanwhile, both the CBI and the FBI were still examining and analyzing the four red and black fibers found on the duct tape.”



I know there are many conflicting reports about Patsy's sweater and jacket and their red and their red and black fibres and alot of times people get them mixed up. So I think there are many people inadvertently stating incorrect information.

Because of all the conflicting reports I cannot be absolutely certain that what I think about the fibres on the duct tape is correct, but for the time being and until more information is released publicly what I believe is that the fibres on the duct tape came from Patsy's jacket and not from her sweater.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

There is truth to support everything you say, Scarlett. I will not disagree with your assessment, since your opinions on this case are just as valid as anyone's.

I would be happy to choke on my horrible accusations against the R's if this case is solved in my lifetime because at least there will be justice for JonBenet, and it is deserved.

What I can say, without disrespecting the IDI standpoint on this thread, is that IF there is an arrest and ensuing conviction of anyone for JB's murder, I would NOT be surprised to also learn that in conjunction, based on what we have learned about the GJ true bills, John Ramsey knows exactly who killed his daughter and why.

His long continued years of relative silence in the quest for her killer, which he early avowed he would spend his entire life doing, speak more loudly than if he was coming out of the shadows a few times a year to keep the public updated on his continued attempts to find "the monster".

Thanks for that!

I don't think he has been silent. I think he has been stoic and tired of fighting the system. He was railroaded from the beginning along with his wife and then after that, There is a big push to get this guy that is confessing and it turns out that that was false. I still have issues with JMK but I don't fault anyone for going after him and looking into it. You have to. You just can not ignore it.
I think that mostly he would love for the public to know the truth so that his family can come out from under suspicion.

I believe that if the police had found the body by searching correctly, Secured the scene, and done their job better we would know exactly who did this.

 

[andreww]

There is no proof she wrote that note.

A lot of people tend to disagree...

Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.

Ubowski "is said to have found 24 of 26 letters in the ransom note which matched exemplars from Patsy Ramsey"

Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued Fox over: "Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."

"The police never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, 'Patsy wrote the note.' The CBI saw this as another missed opportunity". Schiller further notes: "experts from the CBI presented their evaluations into evidence, including Chet Ubowski. He also told Pete Mang, his boss at the CBI, that his gut told him it was her handwriting"

"KING: Is your handwriting cleared, both of you? P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..." CNN RUSH transcript (html). On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas stated: "Well, they're saying that she scored a numerical scale of 4 1/2, but that apparently is from their own defense handwriting experts."

Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her.

Speckin's report stated: "When I compare the handwriting habits of Patsy Ramsey with those in the questioned ransom note, there exists agreement to the extent that some of her individual letter formations and letter combinations do appear in the ransom note."

"When this agreement is weighed against the number, type and consistency of the differences present, I am unable to identify Patsy Ramsey as the author of the questioned ransom note with any degree of certainty. I am, however, unable to eliminate her as the author."

However, Speckin reportedly was ready to testify that "there was only an infinitesimal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkably similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs."

Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.

Steve Thomas Claim. On Larry King Live (4/14/2000), Steve Thomas asserted: "And when we finished an investigation after 18 months and presented our case to the district attorney's office, presumably for them to move it forward, one statistic that was cited in that presentation was that out of 73 people whose handwriting was examined in this case, there was only one whose handwriting showed evidence to suggest authorship, who was in the home that night, who couldn't be eliminated as the author, and that was Patsy Ramsey."

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

A lot of people tend to disagree...

There is no proof she wrote that note. None. At most people have said it was more likely but there is no proof she wrote that note.

 

[Mama2JML]

Steve Thomas:

"Out of 73 people whose handwriting was examined in this case, there was only one whose handwriting showed evidence to suggest authorship, who was in the home that night, who couldn't be eliminated as the author, and that person was Patsy Ramsey."​

Patsy was the only person, out of the 3 people in the home that night (aside from JonBenét) that couldn't be eliminated by all 6 experts, but her handwriting wasn't found to be quite as suspect as some "others". ...according to the experts. I wonder how many of the remaining 70 POIs submitted 5+ handwriting samples and numerous historical exemplars...


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[tovarisch]

Patsy was the only person, out of the 3 people in the home that night (aside from JonBenét) that couldn't be eliminated by all 6 experts, but her handwriting wasn't found to be quite as suspect as some "others". ...according to the experts. I wonder how many of the remaining 70 POIs submitted 5+ handwriting samples and numerous historical exemplars...


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Four factors do not support that Patsy was the author of ransom:

1. Patsy`s handwriting has never been positively proved
2. Some "others" were not 100% eliminated
3. Alex Hunter`s posted copy of ransom nationwide for public help in recognition of handwriting
4. Ransom declared John`s business the reason for killing. No one in his right mind would connect the horrific murder of his own child to his own billion dollars business that he run. Result is predictable- losing CEO position and paycheck. That`s what happened to Mr. Ramsey. He would NEVER allow it to be connected.

 

[andreww]

Four factors do not support that Patsy was the author of ransom:

1. Patsy`s handwriting has never been positively proved
2. Some "others" were not 100% eliminated
3. Alex Hunter`s posted copy of ransom nationwide for public help in recognition of handwriting
4. Ransom declared John`s business the reason for killing. No one in his right mind would connect the horrific murder of his own child to his own billion dollars business that he run. Result is predictable- losing CEO position and paycheck. That`s what happened to Mr. Ramsey. He would NEVER allow it to be connected.

The thing is, even if Patsy DID write the note, there will never be a 100% certain handwriting match, simply because she altered her handwriting style when she wrote the note, possibly writing left handed, and she could have slightly altered her handwriting style after the murder. She generally wrote in cursive and the note was written in block letters, and the Ramseys weren't exactly forthcoming in providing pre-murder samples in that format.

And what the ransom note said means absolutely nothing if Patsy wrote it doesn't it?

 

[andreww]

Steve Thomas:

"Out of 73 people whose handwriting was examined in this case, there was only one whose handwriting showed evidence to suggest authorship, who was in the home that night, who couldn't be eliminated as the author, and that person was Patsy Ramsey."​

Patsy was the only person, out of the 3 people in the home that night (aside from JonBenét) that couldn't be eliminated by all 6 experts, but her handwriting wasn't found to be quite as suspect as some "others". ...according to the experts. I wonder how many of the remaining 70 POIs submitted 5+ handwriting samples and numerous historical exemplars...


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That quote was from Larry King and I'm sure Thomas was a little nervous and tripped over is words a little bit. What he has said elsewhere was that event though Patsy's handwriting could not be positively identified, there were a lot of exemplars that were consistent with the ransom note. When he asked the expert what the odds would be that one of the three people in that house would coincidentally display so many of the same writing characteristics, the answer was an astounding number.

But you guys can ignore that simply because Patsy decided to change her a's and e's when she wrote that letter. I think the only way some people would be convinced would be if Patsy signed the thing.


Oh, and its funny how when Thomas mixes up his words, you and the Ramsey's lawyers jump all over it, but when John Ramsey states that there were lots of people in the house that night, nobody takes notice. Keep feeding the machine people, Jon Ramsey will love your for it.

 

[Mama2JML]

That quote was from Larry King and I'm sure Thomas was a little nervous and tripped over is words a little bit. What he has said elsewhere was that event though Patsy's handwriting could not be positively identified, there were a lot of exemplars that were consistent with the ransom note. When he asked the expert what the odds would be that one of the three people in that house would coincidentally display so many of the same writing characteristics, the answer was an astounding number.

What was that "astounding number" & who was the expert?

But you guys can ignore that simply because Patsy decided to change her a's and e's when she wrote that letter. I think the only way some people would be convinced would be if Patsy signed the thing.


Oh, and its funny how when Thomas mixes up his words, you and the Ramsey's lawyers jump all over it, but when John Ramsey states that there were lots of people in the house that night, nobody takes notice. Keep feeding the machine people, Jon Ramsey will love your for it.

Have you read the W v. Rs depositions about this matter? If so, what are your thoughts on the discrepancies therein and what moves you to post such garbage? If not, you should...


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[icedtea4me]

Four factors do not support that Patsy was the author of ransom:

1. Patsy`s handwriting has never been positively proved
2. Some "others" were not 100% eliminated
3. Alex Hunter`s posted copy of ransom nationwide for public help in recognition of handwriting
4. Ransom declared John`s business the reason for killing. No one in his right mind would connect the horrific murder of his own child to his own billion dollars business that he run. Result is predictable- losing CEO position and paycheck. That`s what happened to Mr. Ramsey. He would NEVER allow it to be connected.

No, it was John's bussiness, not his business. There's a difference.

 

[tovarisch]

No, it was John's bussiness, not his business. There's a difference.

"His net worth was reported at $6.4 million as of May 1, 1996. He graduated from Michigan State University. A distinguished naval officer, he holds a pilot's license and owns two planes.[2] In 1989, late in his military career, he formed the Advanced Product Group, one of three companies that merged to become Access Graphics. After mandatory military retirement, he became president and chief executive officer of Access Graphics, a computer services company and a subsidiary of Lockheed Martin.[3] In 1996, Access Graphics grossed over $1 billion, and he was named "Entrepreneur of the Year" by the Boulder Chamber of Commerce. Immediately following the murder he was "temporarily replaced so the company did not have to bother him about business matters as he grieved", according to Lockheed spokesman Evan McCollum"

Please, read and explain what made you to believe it was not his business if ADVANCED was merged including ACCESS that he personally formed? How do you know he had not vested interest in the Advanced Product? Do you know who is usually the president of the company? Right, person with vested interest. Additionally he run the company as CEO on day to day operation. Does not convince you? OK, please, share your knowledge who Mr. Ramsey was to the company?

 

[midwest mama]

No, it was John's bussiness, not his business. There's a difference.

Your response is reflecting what Hodges theorizes, IIRC. Do you agree, then?

 

[andreww]

OFFS there were NO red fibres from Patsy's sweater on the duct tape.
There were 2 red and 2 black fibres possibly from her red and black jacket.
Can't you even get such basics as the evidence right before you launch into your theories?

Okay, whatever. I haven't studied the fibre evidence in a while like you obviously have. My point being that Patsys fibres were on the duct tape and supposedly Johns shirt fibres were in her panties. I'm not a big supporter of fibre evidence anyway. There are fibres all over that house, there are fibres floating in the air, and their are fibres on the floors and carpets. None of it proves anything because you are going to get a different opinion of what the fibres represent depending on who examines them and who hired them. Same thing with touch DNA IMO.

 

[icedtea4me]

"His net worth was reported at $6.4 million as of May 1, 1996. He graduated from Michigan State University. A distinguished naval officer, he holds a pilot's license and owns two planes.[2] In 1989, late in his military career, he formed the Advanced Product Group, one of three companies that merged to become Access Graphics. After mandatory military retirement, he became president and chief executive officer of Access Graphics, a computer services company and a subsidiary of Lockheed Martin.[3] In 1996, Access Graphics grossed over $1 billion, and he was named "Entrepreneur of the Year" by the Boulder Chamber of Commerce. Immediately following the murder he was "temporarily replaced so the company did not have to bother him about business matters as he grieved", according to Lockheed spokesman Evan McCollum"

Please, read and explain what made you to believe it was not his business if ADVANCED was merged including ACCESS that he personally formed? How do you know he had not vested interest in the Advanced Product? Do you know who is usually the president of the company? Right, person with vested interest. Additionally he run the company as CEO on day to day operation. Does not convince you? OK, please, share your knowledge who Mr. Ramsey was to the company?

Read my response again and then look up the word I put in bold font.

 

[andreww]

OFFS there were NO red fibres from Patsy's sweater on the duct tape.
There were 2 red and 2 black fibres possibly from her red and black jacket.
Can't you even get such basics as the evidence right before you launch into your theories?

Okay, whatever. I haven't studied the fibre evidence in a while like you obviously have. My point being that Patsys fibres were on the duct tape and supposedly Johns shirt fibres were in her panties. I'm not a big supporter of fibre evidence anyway. There are fibres all over that house, there are fibres floating in the air, and their are fibres on the floors and carpets. None of it proves anything because you are going to get a different opinion of what the fibres represent depending on who examines them and who hired them. Same thing with touch DNA IMO.

 

[tovarisch]

Read my response again and then look up the word I put in bold font.

I`ve got it, thank you for reminding of one more clue.
Master of journalism? Being in business with husband for years and typing numerous business letters?
It`s not possible and not probable.
Thank you.

 

[icedtea4me]

I`ve got it, thank you for reminding of one more clue.
Master of journalism? Being in business with husband for years and typing numerous business letters?
It`s not possible and not probable.
Thank you.

Oh, FFS! Here!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/buss?s=t

 

[tovarisch]

Oh, FFS! Here!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/buss?s=t

Noun[edit]

би́знес • (bíznɛs) m inan
1.business

Should we continue?