Intruder theories only - RDI theories not allowed! *READ FIRST POST* #2

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I want to ask folks about Andrew`s palm print, does this bother anyone?

What bothers me not the palm print itself but the fact it was hidden knowledge for 20 years. They pretended it was Melinda`s.
I found it strange.
But I assume only one thing- they twisted and lied on every step. The little facts what we know about the case, might be all not real.

No. not at all. Because none of the Ramseys match the DNA found on JBR.

 

[tovarisch]

No. not at all. Because none of the Ramseys match the DNA found on JBR.

True. I believe Chief M.B. himself said in his corrective addition that finding the owner of DNA means finding the suspect.

What seams strange to me about December 26, day after the Christmas, that killer(s) expected the family to wake up early enough to discover ransom, and missing girl , grieve, arrange money with the bank and make trip to the bank and back and fill out brown bag with money and be ready for the phone call between 8-10 am. Day after the Christmas people do not wake up THAT early, seams to me, killer somehow knew about family`s early wake up that day. Does not matter that they would never call, they showed knowledge of the family`s plan.

 

[andreww]

True. I believe Chief M.B. himself said in his corrective addition that finding the owner of DNA means finding the suspect.

What seams strange to me about December 26, day after the Christmas, that killer(s) expected the family to wake up early enough to discover ransom, and missing girl , grieve, arrange money with the bank and make trip to the bank and back and fill out brown bag with money and be ready for the phone call between 8-10 am. Day after the Christmas people do not wake up THAT early, seams to me, killer somehow knew about family`s early wake up that day. Does not matter that they would never call, they showed knowledge of the family`s plan.

Hmm, who would have known that the Ramseys set their alarm for 5:30?

 

[Mama2JML]

True. I believe Chief M.B. himself said in his corrective addition that finding the owner of DNA means finding the suspect.

What seams strange to me about December 26, day after the Christmas, that killer(s) expected the family to wake up early enough to discover ransom, and missing girl , grieve, arrange money with the bank and make trip to the bank and back and fill out brown bag with money and be ready for the phone call between 8-10 am. Day after the Christmas people do not wake up THAT early, seams to me, killer somehow knew about family`s early wake up that day. Does not matter that they would never call, they showed knowledge of the family`s plan.

Good point, something to consider. Although, there are more than a few plausible explanations. What if the RN was a ruse? (JonBenet was already dead.) ...or, "tomorrow" meant the call was to be made between 8 & 10 am on the 27th? ...or, the perp watched/stalked the family and knew their habits? (Families with young children seldom "sleep in".)






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[tovarisch]

Good point, something to consider. Although, there are more than a few plausible explanations. What if the RN was a ruse? (JonBenet was already dead.) ...or, "tomorrow" meant the call was to be made between 8 & 10 am on the 27th? ...or, the perp watched/stalked the family and knew their habits? (Families with young children seldom "sleep in".)


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Ransom was a ruse, but served purposed of do not call the police before 8-10 am. After 8-10 am with no call from them , there was a risk that parents would involve police. I speculate that they needed time to escape, before police put patrol at every main road and airports and organize hunt. They preoccupied mind of the parents with money and call waiting. After 10 am seams like they didn`t care . My opinion they were buying time for the hours of morning of 26-th.
I don`t know it they would expect parents not to call police and not discover crime for as long as till morning of 27-th.

As to andreww`s question who knew about Ramsey early morning trip. I think a lot of people knew.

 

[Mama2JML]

Updated DNA Timeline...

1997: JBR case forensic evidence was analyzed using the "Polymarker" kit which targets 6 loci/"markers".

Left Hand Fingernails
-JonBenét's DNA Profile
---6 of 6 markers.
-Unsourced Male DNA Profile
---4 of 6 markers.

Right Hand Fingernails
-JonBenét's DNA Profile
---6 of 6 markers.
-Unsourced Male DNA Profile
---2 of 6 markers.
-Unsourced Female DNA Profile
---JonBenét could not be eliminated as a source.

Bloodstain #1 Inner Aspect of Panties
-JonBenét's DNA Profile
---Blood matched the victim.
-Unsourced Male DNA Profile
---1 of 6 markers.

1998: Establishment of CODIS

2001: JBR case forensic evidence was tested using STR analysis which targets 13 loci/"markers".

Bloodstain #2 Inner Aspect of Panties
-JonBenét's DNA Profile
---Blood matched the victim.
-Unsourced Male DNA Profile
---1 of 13 markers.

2003: JBR case forensic evidence was tested using STR analysis which targets 13 loci/"markers".

Bloodstain #3 Inner Aspect of Panties
-JonBenét's DNA Profile
---Blood matched the victim.
-Unsourced Male DNA Profile
---10 of 13 markers.

2008: "Touch" collection methods were used on JBR case evidence. The genetic material recovered underwent conventional STR analyses, which targets 13 loci/"markers".

Left Side of Longjohns
-Unsourced Male DNA Profile

Right Side of Longjohns
-Unsourced Male DNA Profile

Wrist Bindings
-Unsourced Male DNA Profile

Garrote
-Unsourced Male DNA Profile



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[BoldBear]

After reading though those pages of ransom note stuff, it's good to see that this thread went back to 'intruder'. It's impossible to understand any of the theories without knowing other arguments or conflicting evidence. The DNA evidence screams at me. It's the one thing that leaves doubt and puts an intruder at the scene.

I don't want to see extensive discussion regarding what I have to add. This issue was just pounded and pounded in the previous posts so let the RN discussion move to a more appropriate thread.

The fact that Patsy's handwriting changed after the murder doesn't prove much of anything. None of this happened in a vacuum...her daughter passed. They lawyered-up. She may have realized the similarities of her handwriting in the note or someone else may have. She may have intentionally altered her handwriting based on the fear being accused or from someone else's advise. I'm not sure what I would have done if I was her attorney, but I would have done what was necessary for my client. I can't imagine being in that position, finding a ransom note and then being accused of writing it.

That RN has baffled me from day 1. It's either brilliant or stupid. It could have been pre written and handwritten (maybe traced on site) or spur of the moment. A note that would have given the killer to get as far away from the scene as possible.

 

[887sMtreme]

It could have been pre written and handwritten (maybe traced on site) or spur of the moment. A note that would have given the killer to get as far away from the scene as possible.

Who would stick around to write (or trace) a 2.5-pg RN in order to give the killer time to get as far away from the scene as possible? That would have to be heck of a devoted accomplice.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Who would stick around to write (or trace) a 2.5-pg RN in order to give the killer time to get as far away from the scene as possible? That would have to be heck of a devoted accomplice.

Someone sitting and waiting in the house for people to come home. Someone who knew where they were and when they would most likely be home.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Ransom was a ruse, but served purposed of do not call the police before 8-10 am. After 8-10 am with no call from them , there was a risk that parents would involve police. I speculate that they needed time to escape, before police put patrol at every main road and airports and organize hunt. They preoccupied mind of the parents with money and call waiting. After 10 am seams like they didn`t care . My opinion they were buying time for the hours of morning of 26-th.
I don`t know it they would expect parents not to call police and not discover crime for as long as till morning of 27-th.

As to andreww`s question who knew about Ramsey early morning trip. I think a lot of people knew.

I also believe the ransom note was a ruse, Not by the R's but by someone who wanted to scare them and thought they were really slick. All the references to the movies and gruesome acts. I believe this note is just as you said, to give them time and just be ugly.

 

[icedtea4me]

Who would stick around to write (or trace) a 2.5-pg RN in order to give the killer time to get as far away from the scene as possible? That would have to be heck of a devoted accomplice.

Not only that, but why would there even be scribbled out words to trace?

 

[tovarisch]

I also believe the ransom note was a ruse, Not by the R's but by someone who wanted to scare them and thought they were really slick. All the references to the movies and gruesome acts. I believe this note is just as you said, to give them time and just be ugly.

Yes, time was bought with the ransom. Without note, when girl was not found in her bedroom, the following scenario would have take place. Screaming her name, running around the house in panic, search every corner and behind every door. Possibly she would have been found by parents right away. Next call the police. If not found by the parents, call the police , police would most likely have found her right away at arriving. I remember officer French excuse not opening the cellar door-- he was looking not for the girl, but for the source of exit-entrance. He WAS NOT looking for the GIRL. Without note everybody would be looking for the girl. And JB would have been found quickly.
Det. LA was honestly waiting for the call, all devices in place. Only after call never came, her professional intuition told her to send John and White to search around the house once again. Bingo.
Eight hours was wasted.
For eight hours of police have been paralyzed by fake note killers would have spent 30 minutes to wright the note.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*
For eight hours of police have been paralyzed by fake note killers would have spent 30 minutes to wright the note.

No one knows how long it took to compose the note.

 

[887sMtreme]

Who benefits from such a scheme, except the Rs? This doesn't seem to me to be an idea that supports IDI. The child was dead, the remaining Rs in the house would not be up for hours. Who'd have cared how soon after awakening the Rs found the body? Hours would have passed. They could be long gone by then.

 

[BoldBear]

I honestly feel a little intimidated by posting because I'm new to the case. For me this was nothing more than a news report. I moved to Denver in 1997 and it was all over the news but I didn't pay much attention assuming that eventually something would be found. I started viewing unsolved mysteries on youtube a few weeks ago. Now I can rattle off a long list of facts about the case (mostly my own misconceptions). But I respect the rules of the IDI thread.

If the intended purpose of the RN was to allow the intruder to get away, then it did was it was supposed to do because it did exactly that (IDI thread so leave the Rs theories out of it). I wouldn't have written it that way. I would have used 4 lines. I'm baffled that someone can quote ransom movies so I have problems with the idea that it was unresearched. Then again, I can rattle off lines from Young Frankenstein, Harry Potter and LOTR so if my interests were with ransom movies, I suspect an overly dramatic RN wouldn't be out of the question. And if I was a fan of that type of movie, wouldn't a crazy note be a part of the fantasy?

None of that answers the obvious questions. If it was a kidnapping, why not take the child? If it was a sex crime, why no penetration or semen? It seems that the only purpose of the crime was the torture and murder of a little girl. So then I ask the question of who wanted to hurt the Rs so much they'd kill a little girl? If this was a killing by a serial killer, then why isn't there a string of similar murders? The only answer I can draw from those questions is that there was an intent here and the fantasy/plan went terribly wrong (IDI so don't argue the other theories here because I've read them too. And yes, I'm aware of two other cases involving little girls that are linked and not linked).

I honestly tried to walk away from this a week ago, but the contradictions in this case grabbed my attention and wouldn't let go. Then I got a theory. And then I got two. Someone must have explored it in all these years so now I'm spending long nights reading old blogs and hoping to find that discussion that matches the theories you all have probably already dismissed. I also know I can ask the questions directly, but for some reason there's value in discovery. I might learn an overlooked detail that might send me off in another direction. Everyone is suspect, but this is the IDI thread so we stick with it in this discussion.

 

[tovarisch]

"I honestly feel a little intimidated by posting because I'm new to the case".
Don`t be intimidated. All theories and opinions are valuable, someone some day might find the clue.

" I wouldn't have written it that way. I would have used 4 lines".
Every mature adult with a tiny brain would use 4 lines. The note is out of ordinary. So, age, personality of the author and personal ( or ideological) hate must be considered.

"None of that answers the obvious questions. If it was a kidnapping, why not take the child? If it was a sex crime, why no penetration or semen? "
Take her where to ? Desert? Mountings? What for? Penetration took place, at the moment or after the death, digital.

" the crime was the torture and murder of a little girl".
Thank you. The torture. And the murder. But torture too.

" so now I'm spending long nights reading old blogs and hoping to find that discussion that matches the theories you all have probably already dismissed. "
Welcome to the club.

 

[Landonsmom02]

For anyone who is interested...

DNA TIMELINE

1997:
-Unsourced male DNA obtained from victim's left hand fingernail clippings.
-Unsourced male DNA obtained from victim's right hand fingernail clippings.
-Unsourced male DNA isolated from a drop of blood in the crotch of the victim's panties.

2001:
-Unsourced male DNA isolated from a drop of blood in the crotch of the victim's panties.

2003:
-Unsourced male DNA isolated from a drop of blood in the crotch of the victim's panties.

2008:
-Unsourced male DNA obtained via touch collection from the outer, left side of the victim's pants.
-Unsourced male DNA obtained via touch collection from the outer, right side of the victim's pants.




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Is this the DNA that came from 5 different people or is it all from once source? IIRC, didn't the ME clip her nails with dirty clippers?? Did they check all the DB in the morgue? TIA

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

True. I believe Chief M.B. himself said in his corrective addition that finding the owner of DNA means finding the suspect.

What seams strange to me about December 26, day after the Christmas, that killer(s) expected the family to wake up early enough to discover ransom, and missing girl , grieve, arrange money with the bank and make trip to the bank and back and fill out brown bag with money and be ready for the phone call between 8-10 am. Day after the Christmas people do not wake up THAT early, seams to me, killer somehow knew about family`s early wake up that day. Does not matter that they would never call, they showed knowledge of the family`s plan.

I don't think the ransom was meant to do anything but make the R's crazy. I don't think there was ever a plan to get ransom. I believe that they hid her in that house so that in the end he would know that nothing he did or could do would save her. To me this whole crime is about torture. The parents and the child.

They were not expecting ransom, They just wanted to make the R's nuts.

 

[Mama2JML]

Is this the DNA that came from 5 different people or is it all from once source?

It is possible that all of the unsourced male samples came from the same person.

IIRC, didn't the ME clip her nails with dirty clippers??

Doubtful, IMO. Seems to be the result of speculation based on hearsay.

Did they check all the DB in the morgue? TIA

They tested the subjects of, & the instruments used in, the 8 previous autopsies.


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[giagreen]

I dont really post on this thred because I dont want to just jump in. But this case was the first ever murder mystery that I ever got hooked. I remember being 13 and reading all the books I could find. Then 18 watching all I could find on the internet.
I personally after years of going back and forth I 100% believe an intruder did it. I wish this wpuld be solved but sadly I dont think it ever will.