• #601
Eugh so Trump started this war for nothing? He's just as bad as Putin in my opinion.hopefully this doesn't effect us in canada. Jmvho
so if it's not a retaliation, and it's not preemptive, what does that leave? hmm....
 
  • #602
I disagree with so much of this. I love my country, America, and believe that many others have national pride for their nations too. From my travels to other countries I find that most don't want to be American, they have a disdain for us and our leadership here, regardless of the political party in office at the time. Your sentiment that many of us believe we are the best country in the world isn't true at all. I believe that American's do not want to be in the middle east conflict's, however if we aren't involved then the entire world is threatened. Can you imagine a world where the US just stood by and let other countries with evil dictators operate without any restraint? It would be chaos. It really makes me sad that we are always being judged for doing what other countries don't have the fortitude or power to do. It would be nice one day for the world to thank us rather than judge us.

Another point that you bring up is political refugees. We definitely have opened our borders and hearts to them, we just ask that they come to America and want to be part of our country and assimilate. Please don't come here and not honor our laws.

All JMO and I felt the need to respond to this from my personal perspective.

All JMO
100% I have typed and erased many posts in this thread. I have a son currently directly in harm's way fighting this fight, so it hits very close to home. My family has sacrificed over and over again for the USA. I don't always understand decisions that are made, but I will always support the servicemembers that I have seen firsthand give of themselves to support the mission and to protect the USA and our allies around the world. We are not a perfect country, but each of us has the freedom and opportunity to be and do anything we can dream up.

We have seen what Iran does with missiles, one way attack drones, and their proxies in Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, etc., so I support preventing them from having nuclear weapons. There were many opportunities to negotiate, and they would not because they want nuclear weapons.

I wonder how Spain would feel if Iran's missiles could reach their shores. They might not mind the US using those bases then.

IMO
 
  • #603
100% I have typed and erased many posts in this thread. I have a son currently directly in harm's way fighting this fight, so it hits very close to home. My family has sacrificed over and over again for the USA. I don't always understand decisions that are made, but I will always support the servicemembers that I have seen firsthand give of themselves to support the mission and to protect the USA and our allies around the world. We are not a perfect country, but each of us has the freedom and opportunity to be and do anything we can dream up.

We have seen what Iran does with missiles, one way attack drones, and their proxies in Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, etc., so I support preventing them from having nuclear weapons. There were many opportunities to negotiate, and they would not because they want nuclear weapons.

I wonder how Spain would feel if Iran's missiles could reach their shores. They might not mind the US using those bases then.

IMO
I will send up a prayer for your son!! I can only imagine how you are feeling, especially reading our banter back and forth online while he's in the midst of the conflict. Another freedom we have that many others don't. As Tricia said we never know who is reading on here! Thank you for sharing!
 
  • #604
The oil is still flowing. There's been no news of an attack on Kharg Island, which is their main export hub. It accounts for 80% of exports. Iran is a fairly large producer — close to 4 million barrels a day. They export just under 2 million barrels a day, which primarily goes to China. It's over 80% goes to Chinese refiners.

Ben-Achour: Is China still getting that oil? Is it paying more for it? What does that mean for China?

Valle: It's certainly going to pay a lot more for oil and natural gas that goes through the Strait of Hormuz; they are the largest importer of oil globally. The U.S., as you may know, produces 13 and a half million barrels a day roughly. With Canada, we are close to 18 million barrels a day of production versus our 20 million barrels a day of consumption. So we're fairly evenly balanced, whereas China still imports over 13 million barrels — sometimes as much as 15 million barrels a day — of oil. A lot of that comes from the Middle East. Iran can account for over 10% of those volumes. Iran, because of the sanctions, was selling at a much lower price. China is now going to have to find a different supplier, potentially at a significantly higher cost than it was paying Iran. So the potential inflation shocks to China could be very significant the longer this lasts.

Ben-Achour: And how about us, how about in the U.S.? I mean, is this something that could trickle down to pump prices?

Valle: It almost certainly will. We have a more transparent mechanism to move oil prices into pump prices than China would. So it almost certainly will. If, again, the conflict does not escalate from here and Iran doesn't have the strength to retaliate, then it's possible that we'll get prices to come down. [It's] also worth mentioning, that the U.S. has a lot of capacity to grow production at these higher prices. It doesn't have that capacity at $60 oil, but at $75 it certainly can. And that will alleviate some of the impacts on the pump for American consumers.

Prices climbed for natural gas, meanwhile, which could mean higher heating bills for the remainder of the winter, after a major supplier of liquefied natural gas to Europe said it would stop production because of the war. Gold climbed 2.2% as investors looked for safer things to own and as U.S. officials tried to persuade the world that this war will not last forever.

Putting a squeeze on maritime traffic through the Strait of Hormuz is one way that Iran has retaliated against US and Israeli airstrikes. The Islamic Republic hasn’t officially closed the strategic waterway and Foreign Minister Abbas Araghchi saidthe country has no intention of doing so. However, ships have largely stoppedtraversing the narrow strait and many insurers plan to withdraw coverage of war risks for vessels entering the Persian Gulf.

That comes as ships reported hearing a radio broadcast purporting to come from the Iranian navy, announcing that transit through Hormuz had been banned. Iran also claimed responsibility for attacks on three oil tankers
 
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  • #605
"US Central Command has struck more than 1,000 different targets in Iran in the last two days of operations, including its ships, submarines, missile sites, communications links and the command and control centers for the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps.

The president himself has noted this operation is likely to continue for weeks, not days. As I am writing this, General Dan Caine, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, just said at a briefing that this is not an overnight operation and that the U.S. military expects to take additional casualties.

This is war. Don’t waste time or insult people’s intelligence by insisting it is something else."


 
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  • #606
The US government released a statement claiming that Iran wants to negotiate. Iran released a statement declaring that the US government statement untrue. I believe Iran.

It reminds me of the US government declaring that Mark Carney "walked back" his speech at Davos, so Carney had to release a statement that he meant what he said at Davos. That is, the US government has also released false information about Canada's Prime Minister.

"Iranian security chief Ali Larijani denies on X that Iran wants to negotiate with the United States. Yesterday, US President Trump said in an interview with Atlantic Magazine that Iran's new leaders had indicated they wanted to negotiate.​
Larijani is a hardliner and was a top adviser to the slain spiritual leader Khamenei. He further writes that Trump has created chaos in the region."​

It's possible that someone from Iran has reached out and others in the regime are denying that.

Although it's also possible that the claim is an attempt to make it feel safer for anyone in the regime to reach out and potentially be part of a new government rather than be a target for a missile. I do'nt believe every single person in the Iranian government and government infrastructure is a hardliner, and I don't think they're all even Muslim, so they might not all have the safety of the Ayatollahs as their main priority. Some might be more pragmatic and actually care about their country and its people and they just happen to be good at doing the jobs needed in government so that's where they ended up.
 
  • #607
  • #608

Iran’s Regime May Survive, but the Middle East Will Be Changed​

A badly weakened Iran will no longer intimidate or threaten its neighbors in the same way. The regional impact could be comparable to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

-
Iran’s supreme leader may be dead, but there will be another. Its slain military commanders will be replaced. A governing system created over 47 years will not easily disintegrate under air power alone. Iran retains the capacity to strike back against American and Israeli airstrikes, and the war’s trajectory is unclear.

But the Islamic Republic, already weakened and unpopular, is now further diminished, its power at home and in the region at one of its lowest ebbs since its leaders took power during the revolution that overthrew Iran’s American-backed shah in 1978-79.

Even if the regime does not fall, which remains the stated aim of President Trump, this massive attack is likely to have strategic consequences in the Middle East comparable to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

-
Iran built up its missile program and enriched uranium to nearly bomb grade, even as it denied ever wanting a bomb. It became a regional power so strong that Sunni leaders in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the Gulf sought to keep good ties with a Shia Islamic regime that also threatened them.

Iran’s decline began two years ago, with Israel’s tough and sustained response to an invasion by Hamas from Gaza. It accelerated when Israel eroded Iran’s air defenses, defeated Hezbollah and profited from the Syrian revolution that overthrew Bashar al-Assad, another ally of Tehran.

But now, with the ayatollah’s death and intense destruction from the air, Iran’s regional sway has ebbed further, with uncertain consequences that will play out over months and even years.

Fine. Call it a victory, NYT. Just stop killing.

MOO
 
  • #609
Thank you for sharing this article, I thought it was really interesting and well written to get into all the facets of this war. One part that really stood out to me was this:

"If you are the commander in chief, and you make the decision to launch widespread military operations that are destined to include American casualties, you have a duty and obligation to address the American people beyond an eight-minute address from the private luxury club you own, posted to the social media platform you own. And take off your “USA” cap.

Sunday, Trump did non-on-camera interviews with Jonathan Karl of ABC News, Peter Nicholas of ABC News, Jacqui Heinrich of Fox News, Zolan Kanno-Youngs of the New York Times, Michael Scherer of The Atlantic, Nikki Schwab of the Daily Mail, and Joe Kernen of CNBC. Late Sunday, the president issued a six-minute video, confirming the statement from U.S. Central Command that three U.S. military service members have been killed in action.

Those appearances are better than nothing, but they are less than the moment requires. Not a single Trump administration official appeared on a Sunday show."


Its frustrating to me that all we've gotten from the Trump administration are pre-recorded videos and that he won't take any live questions from any press or hold actual press conferences. I saw Pete Hegseth did give a press conference today, which I found pretty lame as he deflected a lot of this to Biden :rolleyes: and was generally very combative but I honestly want to know why the President hasn't done a press conference at this point. I hope that he speaks about this at some point this week. All MOO.
 
  • #610
I will send up a prayer for your son!! I can only imagine how you are feeling, especially reading our banter back and forth online while he's in the midst of the conflict. Another freedom we have that many others don't. As Tricia said we never know who is reading on here! Thank you for sharing!
Thank you! I've been a military spouse for 27 years and now a military mom to 2 sons who have both spent time overseas. If we don't have some humor and banter, then I don't know how we make it through the scary and hard times. Even my son who is currently in the midst of this responds to me with humor. I told him to stay safe, and he said, "couldn't be safer" We just learn to carry on. There are 1000s of moms, spouses, siblings, and children like me. We are from rural little towns, large cities and even other countries. I do not celebrate this action, but I understand it. IMO
 
  • #611
If I think of the pain we all feel in the microcosm of Nancy Guthrie's home being invaded and her being captured, then scale that up to the macro world where the stated belief of radical Islam is to convert the entire world to Islam by force, there have been countless attacks on those of other religions worldwide. Each of the dead have left mournful and destroyed families behind.

October 7th in Israel, 9/11 here, endless vehicular attacks mowing down innocent shoppers or people just taking a stroll, attacks in malls, the attack at Bondi, the attacks on our military and ships, the attacks by lone actors on our military bases, and countless more——

Iran is a major sponsor of these attacks. The ayatollah will be replaced, I’m sure, but the world will be much safer if radicals who despise us can be weakened.

NO ONE wants schoolchildren to be killed by a wayward missile. However, no excuses meant but in reality the U.S. and Israel do not AIM to kill the innocent, whereas the ultimate goal in radical regimes is INTENTIONALLY to kill the innocent.

IMO the U.S. had an opportunity to kill the ayatollah and they took it. The Middle East respects power—-not compliance, not weakness, not politely begging.

Nine Israelis have died and over a hundred injured according to NBC this morning.

I long, as do we all, for a peaceful and tolerant world. Live and let live.

But the creed of our enemies is convert or be killed. While it is so one-sided this way, IMO we cannot sit around playing patty-cake and hope the world changes without intervention. It won’t.

JMO
I don't think there is need to explain the pain the administration in Iran has caused here. There is not an absence of empathy.

The disagreement is with the violence done all over the Middle East, with the lack of wisdom in attempting to regime change, and for US people, the sorrow that the executive branch of out government continues to overreach and fail to declare wars for decades.

Nobody is disregarding the pain caused to people in the Middle East in the past, and on the part of Iran.

MOO
 
  • #612
  • #613

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth championed President Donald Trump’s strikes on Iran in a press conference Monday morning, refuting concerns from the “fake news” media and “political left” that the conflict would lead to an “endless war.”

“To the media outlets and political left screaming ‘endless wars,’ stop. This is not Iraq. This is not endless,” Hegseth said. “Our generation knows better and so does this president.”

The defense secretary insisted the strikes, which have led to a deadly exchange of fire in the region, would prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapon and harming more Americans, even as the operation has already killed four service members.
 
  • #614
Seriously? Then how do you justify the unrelenting violence against Palestinian children and adults? The fact that the average age of Palestinians is 19 years old, meaning the population is overwhelming composed of children? It’s okay if they die in the name of expanding US colonialism abroad and “protecting” Israel?

Islam may be a violent and radical regime, but so is Zionism and Christian nationalism in the United States. Weird how one group are terrorists yet the other are supposedly “fighting for democracy”.

Nevermind that US intervention almost NEVER results in actual democracy or better conditions for the countries they bomb and invade. Nevermind that Trump repeatedly asserted that Obama would go to war with Iran because he wasn’t as good at negotiating during the elections. The hypocrisy is breathtaking. This military violence has nothing to do with “liberating” the people of Iran.
Strongly agree, but among the many people suffering under these theological dictatorships and wannabes are the Israeli people.

MOO
 
  • #615
100% I have typed and erased many posts in this thread. I have a son currently directly in harm's way fighting this fight, so it hits very close to home. My family has sacrificed over and over again for the USA. I don't always understand decisions that are made, but I will always support the servicemembers that I have seen firsthand give of themselves to support the mission and to protect the USA and our allies around the world. We are not a perfect country, but each of us has the freedom and opportunity to be and do anything we can dream up.

We have seen what Iran does with missiles, one way attack drones, and their proxies in Yemen, Lebanon, Syria, etc., so I support preventing them from having nuclear weapons. There were many opportunities to negotiate, and they would not because they want nuclear weapons.

I wonder how Spain would feel if Iran's missiles could reach their shores. They might not mind the US using those bases then.

IMO
I thank you and your family for your sacrifices. I think it's important to remember that during Trump's first term, he reneged on an agreement with Iran whereby they had reduced their uranium enrichment to below weapons grade, reduced their uranium stockpiles and equipment such as centrifuges, and allowed inspectors in to ensure compliance. In short there was no way for Iran to develop nuclear weapons under those conditions.

The agreement did not address Iran's weapons program, however, nor their aggressive behavior. This was of course Trump's objection to it in his first term. But rather than negotiate to a better solution, he, pardon the pun, nuked the agreement which is typical of his childish, bull in the china shop behavior.

Of course what Iran did, then, when constraints were no longer imposed, was to start ramping up their uranium enrichment unabated. When Trump came to power the second time, he bombed Iran and completely "obliterated" their nuclear capabilities. I've included their link. You have to ask yourself if that destruction was true, how could Iran have recovered enough to be a nuclear threat in only 6 months? Clearly the US administration was lying last summer, or they are lying now - both cannot possibly be true.

Iran is definitely a bad actor and the world needs to come together to deal with them, but we have an administration that has not developed a coherent strategy to deal with it, preferring instead to launch a bunch of bombs and hope for the best. Trump's actions, both his first term and now, are putting people in harms way. I keep them all in my prayers.

 
  • #616
There is no simple sense to it all.

As far as Iran is concerned Trump "says" it's all about the Iranian people. I believe he's actually wanting to dismantle their terror network apparatus that supports Hezbollah, Hamaz, Houthi rebels, has been supporting pro Assad, is sending drones and missiles to Russia for use on Ukraine, and much more. I think the rationale behind this is totally separate from anything to do with Venezuela or anything at home in the US or related to the Nobel Peace Prize or anything else.

Iran has been wanting nukes to protect its government, the ayatollahs who repress the Iranian people, the Revolutionary Guard who facilitate terrorist attacks in the middle east and elsewhere. The Iranian regime is not peaceful to the outside world. They do not want nukes to protect their innocent civilians, they want them to protect their Khamenei types and their Revolutionary Guard and their stocks of missiles that are currently headed to allied bases around the Middle East as well as to the homes of innocent people. They've blocked the Strait of Hormuz that really does affect the whole world that relies on oil, gas, and other supplies that come through there. This is to protect the regime of the ayatollahs, the Revolutionary guard, the clothing police that imprisons women for going out without a headscarf and kills thousands of its people when they protest their living conditions.

You can't make sense of *this* by focusing on Trump or the USA, you have to look at Iran and the damage their leaders do outside of their country.

JMO
Beautiful post, and so well-stated.

One of the reasons I'm supportive of our actions right now is that the US, under President Carter's weak, inept, ineffectual "leadership" was (IMO) partially responsible for creating the conditions in which the Ayatollah and his islamist buddies were able to assume control of Iran in 1979. 1979: Iran and America | Brookings

I view what we're doing now as righting a wrong decades ago that the US could and should have anticipated and prevented from happening in the first place.

And too, there is all the American blood this regime has been gleefully covering its hands with ever since then:

These attacks have gone unanswered by the US. Until now.

For decades, red lines vis-a-vis their nuclear program have been drawn by US administrations, then belligerently crossed by Iran, then redrawn by subsequent US administrations, then belligerently crossed by Iran, over and over, in a seemingly endless game of kick-the-can.

All the while, a fanatical, malevolent Iranian regime, whose stated goal is "wiping Israel off the map," has been steadily and stealthily drawing ever-closer to a nuclear bomb.

It appears this US administration has made the calculation that it's time to stop kicking that can down the road for future generations. Their red line was drawn in permanent ink.

The time for FA is all over for the IR. They're in the "FO" stage now.

JMO.
 
  • #617
  • #618
  • #619
  • #620
I thank you and your family for your sacrifices. I think it's important to remember that during Trump's first term, he reneged on an agreement with Iran whereby they had reduced their uranium enrichment to below weapons grade, reduced their uranium stockpiles and equipment such as centrifuges, and allowed inspectors in to ensure compliance. In short there was no way for Iran to develop nuclear weapons under those conditions.

The agreement did not address Iran's weapons program, however, nor their aggressive behavior. This was of course Trump's objection to it in his first term. But rather than negotiate to a better solution, he, pardon the pun, nuked the agreement which is typical of his childish, bull in the china shop behavior.

Of course what Iran did, then, when constraints were no longer imposed, was to start ramping up their uranium enrichment unabated. When Trump came to power the second time, he bombed Iran and completely "obliterated" their nuclear capabilities. I've included their link. You have to ask yourself if that destruction was true, how could Iran have recovered enough to be a nuclear threat in only 6 months? Clearly the US administration was lying last summer, or they are lying now - both cannot possibly be true.

Iran is definitely a bad actor and the world needs to come together to deal with them, but we have an administration that has not developed a coherent strategy to deal with it, preferring instead to launch a bunch of bombs and hope for the best. Trump's actions, both his first term and now, are putting people in harms way. I keep them all in my prayers.

I think this just shows that Iran did not want to cease enrichment and they were going to find a way. How long do we allow them to stall and misbehave before we just say enough? I am not saying I know an exact answer because I don't and I'm glad my job isn't in politics because I wouldn't want the job to negotiate with a known terrorist regime. I don't believe anything they said was genuine and their negotiations were just them stalling. They wanted nuclear weapons and they were going to keep going until they had them. That is just my belief.

I don't know exactly what was destroyed the first time or why we needed to do it again. I don't think people are going to ever think it's a good time to strike. There will always be criticism no matter when/how it's done. If they had recovered enough to let's say have nukes in 5 years, do we wait 4 years and then strike again or do we do it now? It's possible initial indicators were one thing and then over the course of the last 6 or so months better intel said something else.

IMO
 

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