• #581
  • #582
I suspect the flaw is that many in the US think they're the best country in the world, and therefore, no other country could have citizens who feel as strongly about their own. Patriotism or nationalism in other countries baffles them, I think, because there's this false narrative that everyone everywhere wants to be American and live in America, like everywhere else is somehow deficient. Whereas the fact is, there are plenty of people who live all over the world and love their country and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Many political refugees in exile love their countries with a passion far beyond where they are settled, even though they know they can never return.

If you can't comprehend that other people other places love their countries, whatever their injustices, trials and troubles, then you're never going to understand the lengths they'll go to to defend it. And that's a flaw you can't have if you're going to go to war with them.

MOO
IMO, that is a totally unfair judgement regarding Americans. IMHO
I am saddened for every innocent life lost and feel this war was illegal and unnecessary. JMHO
 
  • #583
1m ago
Russian president Vladimir Putin held a phone call with King King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa of Bahrain on Monday, discussing “unprecedented escalation around Iran”, Russian state news agency TASS reported.

Putin said that Russia is ready to use ’all available means to stabilise the situation in the region,’ TASS reported.

 
  • #584
What would be great is if we could come up with some sort of an agreement with Iran and a half dozen or so other countries where Iran agreed to restrict their uranium to below weapons-grade, reduce their uranium stockpile and centrifuges, and allow international inspectors regular access to monitor compliance. I dunno, might work 🤷‍♀️
They were trying to do that. Iran wouldn't negotiate.
 
  • #586
Putin needs to mind his business. Stabilize the region? Get out of Ukraine.
 
  • #587
During the Iraq war when reading the newspaper (remember them?) each morning, I was struck by the photographs - after a while I could instantly tell if the photographer was a westerner or from the middle east. The western photographers typically took photos of the damage - bombed buildings, cars, etc. while the local photographers took photos of the people - people in crisis, holding dead and dying, looking for someone lost, grieving. It was quite telling.

Let's see how this war plays out.
 
  • #588
  • #589
How many countries have been implicated so far? In just a couple of days 🙁
it's almost as if the middle east is unstable and you want to tread carefully there
 
  • #590
CNN —
Sixty years after the overthrow of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh, a declassified CIA document acknowledges that the agency was involved in the 1953 coup.

The independent National Security Archive research institute, which published the document Monday, says the declassification is believed to mark the CIA’s first formal acknowledgment of its involvement.

The documents, declassified in 2011 and given to George Washington University research group under the Freedom of Information Act, come from the CIA’s internal history of Iran from the mid-1970s and paint a detailed picture of how the CIA worked to oust Mossadegh.

In a key line pointed out by Malcom Byrne, the editor who worked through the documents, the CIA spells out its involvement in the coup. “The military coup that overthrew Mossadeq and his National Front cabinet was carried out under CIA direction as an act of U.S. foreign policy, conceived and approved at the highest levels of government,” the document says, using a variation of the spelling of Mossadegh’s name.

While this might be the CIA’s first formal nod, the U.S. role has long been known.

 
  • #591
President Donald Trump says he is “very disappointed” in Prime Minister Keir Starmer for initially refusing to allow British bases to be used for U.S. strikes on Iran.

Trump told Britain’s Daily Telegraph that “we were very disappointed in Keir.”

In a change of position, Starmer announced Sunday that the U.S. can use bases in England and on Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean to strike Iran’s ballistic missiles and their launch and storage sites, but not to hit other targets.
Trump said the change in position is “useful” but “took far too much time.”
“It sounds like he was worried about the legality,” Trump said.

1772463160677.webp

US Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said the goal of the strikes on Iran was not regime change, “but the regime sure did change and the world is better off for it.” Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Dan Caine said the war against Iran would not be a “single, overnight operation.”

• Expanding war with Iran: Iran’s top official said Tehran “will not negotiate” with the US. Israel and Hezbollah are trading blows as the conflict widens, while explosions have been heard in Gulf cities including Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Doha. Here’s a look at the war in maps and charts.

• Fighter jets shot down: Three US fighter jets were accidentally shot down by Kuwaiti air defenses in an apparent “friendly fire incident,” according to the US military. All crews have been recovered and are in stable condition.
 
  • #592

US aircraft leave Spain after government says bases cannot be used for Iran attacks​

 
  • #593
  • IRAN WAR INTENSIFIES: The United States and Israel hit thousands of targets inside Iran, continuing their joint campaign after killing Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Iran’s Red Crescent said more than 550 people were killed in the strikes.
  • TEHRAN HITS BACK: Iran escalated attacks on Israel and targets across the Middle East, with four U.S. service members killed. Three U.S. fighter jets were mistakenly downed by Kuwait. Eleven people were killed in Israel, officials said, with deaths reported in the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait and Bahrain.
  • CONFLICT SPREADS: Iran-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon fired missiles at Israel, which responded with its own strikes. Dozens were killed, according to Lebanese authorities.
  • WAR WON'T BE 'ENDLESS': Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said today that the war in Iran will not be "endless," and that the U.S. goal was not regime change.
  • TEHRAN SAYS NO TALKS: Iran’s top national security official Ali Larijani vowed “we will not negotiate with the United States” after President Donald Trump said that Iranian officials do want to talk with the U.S. and “are talking.”
  • GLOBAL DISRUPTION: The price of oil has risen sharply as the conflict disrupts supplies. Countries are also scrambling to evacuate their citizens from Gulf states under attack from Iran amid widespread flight cancellations and airport closures
  • Live updates: Iran war will not be 'endless,' Hegseth says as Middle East conflict expands
In the chaos, the U.S. military said that Kuwait "mistakenly shot down" three American F-15E Strike Eagles during a combat mission.

Brent crude, the global benchmark, was trading in the high $70s on Monday morning following the effective halt of tanker traffic through the Strait of Hormuz.

That's a sharp rise from before the U.S. and Israel attacked, but far from a worse-case scenario. Analysts have warned that prices could top $100 a barrel if oil trade is disrupted for a prolonged period of time, or if the war spills over into neighboring countries and destroys oil infrastructure. Saudi Arabia says it has shot down drones targeting an oil refinery, while Qatar Energy says two natural gas facilities have been attacked
 
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  • #594
IMO, that is a totally unfair judgement regarding Americans. IMHO
I am saddened for every innocent life lost and feel this war was illegal and unnecessary. JMHO
i'm an american, and i don't feel the way she describes, but i can hear it without getting offended, because i don't take it as a blanket generalization, so much as a statement about what's typical and/or how the country behaves on the world stage, and i don't disagree.
 
  • #595
  • #596
I suspect the flaw is that many in the US think they're the best country in the world, and therefore, no other country could have citizens who feel as strongly about their own. Patriotism or nationalism in other countries baffles them, I think, because there's this false narrative that everyone everywhere wants to be American and live in America, like everywhere else is somehow deficient. Whereas the fact is, there are plenty of people who live all over the world and love their country and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Many political refugees in exile love their countries with a passion far beyond where they are settled, even though they know they can never return.

If you can't comprehend that other people other places love their countries, whatever their injustices, trials and troubles, then you're never going to understand the lengths they'll go to to defend it. And that's a flaw you can't have if you're going to go to war with them.

MOO
I disagree with so much of this. I love my country, America, and believe that many others have national pride for their nations too. From my travels to other countries I find that most don't want to be American, they have a disdain for us and our leadership here, regardless of the political party in office at the time. Your sentiment that many of us believe we are the best country in the world isn't true at all. I believe that American's do not want to be in the middle east conflict's, however if we aren't involved then the entire world is threatened. Can you imagine a world where the US just stood by and let other countries with evil dictators operate without any restraint? It would be chaos. It really makes me sad that we are always being judged for doing what other countries don't have the fortitude or power to do. It would be nice one day for the world to thank us rather than judge us.

Another point that you bring up are the political refugees. We definitely have opened our borders and hearts to them, we just ask that they come to America and want to be part of our country and assimilate. Please don't come here and not honor our laws.

All JMO and I felt the need to respond to this from my personal perspective.

All JMO
 
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  • #597
another thing going on that i think absolutely plays a role is that the american civilian population is as far removed from war, in both space and time, as any civilian population in history. last time we had any significant amount of combat here, in the same place our civilians live (and, more to the point, our voters), was 1865. war is an abstraction to almost all of us. the human costs are almost invisible. that makes it easy, when the possibility of going to war comes up, to say "sure. why not?"
 
  • #598
Iran's president appointed on Monday Revolutionary Guards general Majid Ebnelreza as the country’s acting defence minister after his predecessor was killed in Israeli-US strikes.


"Congrats to Ebnelreza on both his promotion and his soon-to-be early retirement!" ~ the IDF (probably)
 
  • #599
Eugh so Trump started this war for nothing? He's just as bad as Putin in my opinion.hopefully this doesn't effect us in canada. Jmvho
 
  • #600
I'm still confused.
Trump said that he was all about peace and that the USA wouldn't be involved in more wars (when he suddenly withdrew troops from Afghanistan and abandoned many Afghanis who helped the Americans). Then he bombed Venezuela. Then he bombed Iran.

If the excuse is that Venezuela is bad to their citizens and Iran is bad to their citizens (and I agree they are) then what's up? Is Afghanistan good to their citizens? I think we can all agree that they aren't. Did the US Admin do anything supportive of the Venezuelans after kidnapping (against international law) Maduro? I haven't heard of anything other than laying claim to their oil (which would make the average Venezuelan poorer, not better off).

Please help me make sense of this.
There is no simple sense to it all.

As far as Iran is concerned Trump "says" it's all about the Iranian people. I believe he's actually wanting to dismantle their terror network apparatus that supports Hezbollah, Hamaz, Houthi rebels, has been supporting pro Assad, is sending drones and missiles to Russia for use on Ukraine, and much more. I think the rationale behind this is totally separate from anything to do with Venezuela or anything at home in the US or related to the Nobel Peace Prize or anything else.

Iran has been wanting nukes to protect its government, the ayatollahs who repress the Iranian people, the Revolutionary Guard who facilitate terrorist attacks in the middle east and elsewhere. The Iranian regime is not peaceful to the outside world. They do not want nukes to protect their innocent civilians, they want them to protect their Khamenei types and their Revolutionary Guard and their stocks of missiles that are currently headed to allied bases around the Middle East as well as to the homes of innocent people. They've blocked the Strait of Hormuz that really does affect the whole world that relies on oil, gas, and other supplies that come through there. This is to protect the regime of the ayatollahs, the Revolutionary guard, the clothing police that imprisons women for going out without a headscarf and kills thousands of its people when they protest their living conditions.

You can't make sense of *this* by focusing on Trump or the USA, you have to look at Iran and the damage their leaders do outside of their country.

JMO
 

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