Is the molester also the killer?

[Solace]

Dru,

For those that promote the accident theory in all its guises that is an inconvenient question, one that really receives little attention.

As does the common explanation it was just staging well if thats the case why hide it by wiping her down, and redressing her in size-12's and the longjohns, why not leave the sexual assault as it is, so everyone can be in no doubt that this was a lust murder perpetrated by some deranged intruder?



.

For the umpteenth time - the wiping down and redressing was an act of sorrow and it is OFTEN done by parents who kill their children. John Douglas said when a parent leads you to the child, they did it. John led them. Often, often a parent will loving dress the child (in this case, they had approximately 4-5 hours to realize what they had done or realize what Patsy had done and stage the scene) and YOU CAN BE SURE that Patsy took a handful of xanax just to get through. He wiped her down, he dressed her in the wrong size underwear and he swaddled her in a blanket. All the acts of a parent who is franctic and sorry.

 

[Solace]

...I've asked this before, but I think I need to ask it again:

How do you explain the fact that the sexual wound inflicted on JBR was, by the evidence that it bled, inflicted before she died?

If you really believe that one or both parents inflicted this wound to make the crime look like a sex crime committed by a pervert intruder, then how do you account for the fact that they inflicted the wound while JBR's heart was still beating?

Dru,

She was unconscious when when was strangled. Her head was split in half and you can be sure that the parents could feel this split and someone shook JonBenet furiously in an attempt to wake (the bruising is evidence of this).

 

[UKGuy]

For the umpteenth time - the wiping down and redressing was an act of sorrow and it is OFTEN done by parents who kill their children. John Douglas said when a parent leads you to the child, they did it. John led them. Often, often a parent will loving dress the child (in this case, they had approximately 4-5 hours to realize what they had done or realize what Patsy had done and stage the scene) and YOU CAN BE SURE that Patsy took a handful of xanax just to get through. He wiped her down, he dressed her in the wrong size underwear and he swaddled her in a blanket. All the acts of a parent who is franctic and sorry.

Solace,

the wiping down and redressing was an act of sorrow

Patently this is your personal opinion, it has no basis in fact and is substantiated by no forensic evidence.

As usual it does not answer the question, or address the issues, I can claim that JonBenet's killers were dispassionate and cruel in their determination to inflict pain and suffering upon JonBenet, they had evil intent in the mind that night.


.

 

[Ames]

Dru,

For those that promote the accident theory in all its guises that is an inconvenient question, one that really receives little attention.

As does the common explanation it was just staging well if thats the case why hide it by wiping her down, and redressing her in size-12's and the longjohns, why not leave the sexual assault as it is, so everyone can be in no doubt that this was a lust murder perpetrated by some deranged intruder?



.

How many times does Solace and the rest of us have to explain this to you? We need to move along, now....to something else.

 

[Ames]

Solace,


Patently this is your personal opinion, it has no basis in fact and is substantiated by no forensic evidence.

As usual it does not answer the question, or address the issues, I can claim that JonBenet's killers were dispassionate and cruel in their determination to inflict pain and suffering upon JonBenet, they had evil intent in the mind that night.


.

And it is alot of other peoples opinion....including mine. You say...."I can claim that JonBenet's killers were dispassionate and cruel in their determination to inflict pain and sufferning upon JonBenet, they had evil intent in the mind that night". Well, that is YOUR opinion. WHY did they choose THAT night?? They had a trip planned...two trips planned. Do you think that after they came home from the party, around 10 pm, and had all of this packing and planning to do, that they would sit down and decide that TONIGHT is the night that they will inflict pain and suffering on JB? John: " You know Patsy, I am really not tired...I know its late, but I just am not ready for bed yet". Patsy: "Me either, John. I do have all of this packing to do, but maybe I can take a break in the middle of it, and we can do something". John: "Sounds good....what would you like to do? Its late, and we have to get up real early tomorrow for the trip, so I guess that we could just watch a little bit of TV, maybe Leno is on...or we could read or something". Patsy: " I don't know John, that sounds boring to me. You know, after having a long day, with Christmas and all...and going to the White's party, and all that talk about Christmas "being in your heart". Remember that John? When "Santa" asked JonBenet where Christmas would always be, and she pointed to her heart...and said "in your heart"? Yeah, that was SO cute and sweet." John: "Yes, I remember Patsy, get on with it". Patsy: "Well....this may sound kinda strange, but, I was thinking that.....maybe we could inflict pain and suffering on JonBenet tonight. What do you think?" John: "Patsy, why thats a SWELL idea, I will go and wake her up".

See how stupid and ridicolous this sounds. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, YOU are the one that said that they waited to inflict pain and sufferning on JB, until Christmas....because she was "OUT OF SCHOOL". Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. IMO But, as always...you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Solace]

Solace,


Patently this is your personal opinion, it has no basis in fact and is substantiated by no forensic evidence.

As usual it does not answer the question, or address the issues, I can claim that JonBenet's killers were dispassionate and cruel in their determination to inflict pain and suffering upon JonBenet, they had evil intent in the mind that night.


.

UK,

I am also going by the observations of profilers such as John Douglas with years of experience who will tell you that when a parent kills a child they will lead you to that child as John did. In committing the murder, there are stressers that will trigger this act of violence and I believe Patsy has all of the stressers (birthday, the two trips planned, Christmas - very stressful- and also cancer). She is a great candidate. But having said that. I would like to suggest that you are obsessed with the "evil intent" and this will go a long way to NOT SOLVING this crime. This is a rage accident and the fact that JonBenet has a thumb print on her neck, PROVES that she was being thrown around by someone who was extremely angry with her and agitated and they did not stop with the strangling motion to think about how to kill her - they THREW her head first into the sink - the back of her head hit first as she was being dragged and that thumb print was sinking into her neck.

She had nonstop infections and was scratching herself on a daily basis and it can be seen in the video that Ames mentioned in her post. She was probably dry as could possibly be and prone to bleeding much more than normal. Why are you so rigid about your belief?

 

[JMO8778]

I don't believe that she was dragged either. Dragging someone down the stairs, would make a loud, thump, thump, thump, thump....over and over again.....and that would have woke Burke up.

I just remembered reading somewhere it was speculated due to the abrasions/scratch,that she might have been dragged down the stairs in anger.
As far as waking BR up,PR admits they were both screaming (when JR came up from the basement);I would think that would wake him,he must have been a pretty sound sleeper or was extra tired that night.But I do think they were worried about noises and what he might have overheard and could tell LE,so they got him out of the house.(as well as so he wouldn't be there when JB was found).

 

[JMO8778]

I am sure that her heartbeat was faint. Before my mom died, she had heart problems, and a hospice nurse would come to see her at home. Days before she died, they had trouble finding her pulse...even with a stethoscope, it was really hard to hear her heartbeat. Well, John and Patsy, I am quite sure...did not have a medical license. They would have THOUGHT that JB was already dead. I do not believe that they would have inserted the paintbrush, had they have known that she was still alive. IMO

and so they thought it wouldn't bleed,if she was already dead,perhaps?

 

[Solace]

And it is alot of other peoples opinion....including mine. You say...."I can claim that JonBenet's killers were dispassionate and cruel in their determination to inflict pain and sufferning upon JonBenet, they had evil intent in the mind that night". Well, that is YOUR opinion. WHY did they choose THAT night?? They had a trip planned...two trips planned. Do you think that after they came home from the party, around 10 pm, and had all of this packing and planning to do, that they would sit down and decide that TONIGHT is the night that they will inflict pain and suffering on JB? John: " You know Patsy, I am really not tired...I know its late, but I just am not ready for bed yet". Patsy: "Me either, John. I do have all of this packing to do, but maybe I can take a break in the middle of it, and we can do something". John: "Sounds good....what would you like to do? Its late, and we have to get up real early tomorrow for the trip, so I guess that we could just watch a little bit of TV, maybe Leno is on...or we could read or something". Patsy: " I don't know John, that sounds boring to me. You know, after having a long day, with Christmas and all...and going to the White's party, and all that talk about Christmas "being in your heart". Remember that John? When "Santa" asked JonBenet where Christmas would always be, and she pointed to her heart...and said "in your heart"? Yeah, that was SO cute and sweet." John: "Yes, I remember Patsy, get on with it". Patsy: "Well....this may sound kinda strange, but, I was thinking that.....maybe we could inflict pain and suffering on JonBenet tonight. What do you think?" John: "Patsy, why thats a SWELL idea, I will go and wake her up".

See how stupid and ridicolous this sounds. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, YOU are the one that said that they waited to inflict pain and sufferning on JB, until Christmas....because she was "OUT OF SCHOOL". Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. IMO But, as always...you are entitled to your opinion.

I am laughing here because your post is great. But it is absolutely true. They had planned the trip to Michigan. Their other children were meeting them there. Patsy had the house decorated with Christmas decorations. The statement above that they wanted to wait until Christmas is not bordering on absurd it is beyond absurd.

Rocket and Ames helped solve this case for me - I have no doubt, none that Patsy went ballistic with JonBenet and it happened in less than a minute and she was unconscious. Then they staged and badly also. The letter alone should tell everyone how frantic they both were and the fact that John let it be is evidence of how terrified he was also and just let it go. And lets not forget Patsy I would bet everything took a handful of pills that night and just rambled on.

 

[JMO8778]

Solace,


Patently this is your personal opinion, it has no basis in fact and is substantiated by no forensic evidence.

As usual it does not answer the question, or address the issues, I can claim that JonBenet's killers were dispassionate and cruel in their determination to inflict pain and suffering upon JonBenet, they had evil intent in the mind that night.


.

If that's what happened then maybe it was PR doing corporal punishment cleaning on JB?I know coloradokares said she knew it was a big concern with those who knew them.
I can't see JR doing it for sadistic pleasure.

 

[Ames]

I just remembered reading somewhere it was speculated due to the abrasions/scratch,that she might have been dragged down the stairs in anger.
As far as waking BR up,PR admits they were both screaming (when JR came up from the basement);I would think that would wake him,he must have been a pretty sound sleeper or was extra tired that night.But I do think they were worried about noises and what he might have overheard and could tell LE,so they got him out of the house.(as well as so he wouldn't be there when JB was found).

Oh, I do believe that she was dragged, but not down the stairs. I believe that she was dragged to the her bathroom. I have to agree....Burke must have been "zonked out" too. I bet that you are right about the reason that they got him out of the house so quick..I had never thought about that before.

 

[Ames]

and so they thought it wouldn't bleed,if she was already dead,perhaps?

Not only would they think that she wouldn't bleed, but that she wouldn't feel it. I just don't think that they would have been emotionally able to do that to their daughter, if they had of known that she was still alive.

 

[Ames]

I am laughing here because your post is great. But it is absolutely true. They had planned the trip to Michigan. Their other children were meeting them there. Patsy had the house decorated with Christmas decorations. The statement above that they wanted to wait until Christmas is not bordering on absurd it is beyond absurd.

Rocket and Ames helped solve this case for me - I have no doubt, none that Patsy went ballistic with JonBenet and it happened in less than a minute and she was unconscious. Then they staged and badly also. The letter alone should tell everyone how frantic they both were and the fact that John let it be is evidence of how terrified he was also and just let it go. And lets not forget Patsy I would bet everything took a handful of pills that night and just rambled on.

Sure she did. That's exactly why the RN was almost three pages long. She rambled and she rambled....I am sure that John probably yelled at her when he saw how long it was. "Patsy!! What were you THINKING??? This is not a ransom note!!! You have written a BOOK! But, we don't have time to shorten it, so lets just go with it."

 

[Solace]

Sure she did. That's exactly why the RN was almost three pages long. She rambled and she rambled....I am sure that John probably yelled at her when he saw how long it was. "Patsy!! What were you THINKING??? This is not a ransom note!!! You have written a BOOK! But, we don't have time to shorten it, so lets just go with it."

Yep. Can you imagine how insane it was there that night. And I agree with you. They got Berke out quickly so he would not be questioned. He did ask them what he could do and John semi yelled we are not talking to you. He said he heard creaking during the night.

 

[Camper]

I am totally convinced that the killer and part of the cover
up relatives are living in their own mental prison today.

Compassion shown in the coverup for the victimS -plural-.

Victim #1 = JonBenet
Victim #2 = JR/PR

 

[Solace]

If that's what happened then maybe it was PR doing corporal punishment cleaning on JB?I know coloradokares said she knew it was a big concern with those who knew them.
I can't see JR doing it for sadistic pleasure.

That is what Steve Thomas believes re corporal punishment.

 

[JMO8778]

That is what Steve Thomas believes re corporal punishment.

right,now that I've read his book,and read what CK had to say about it here,it seems very likely that he talked to the ppl who knew about it, and had some inside info,although understandably,he didn't state that in his book.it does make more sense now.
the only thing that bothers me is the part where he says he hopes JB was unconscious when the vaginal trauma occurred.it sounds like she may have been corporally abused bf death,in addition to the paintbrush injury done for the staging.

 

[UKGuy]

If that's what happened then maybe it was PR doing corporal punishment cleaning on JB?I know coloradokares said she knew it was a big concern with those who knew them.
I can't see JR doing it for sadistic pleasure.

JMO8778,

There was a degree of sarcasm in what I said, simply to underline, that my opinion is simply that, and carries no real conviction without any supporting evidence, I prefer to base any theory I support or those that I do not, on the basis of fact and not entirely on ad-hominem arguments. I suspect the killers pleasure would be sexual rather than sadistic?


Would I be surprised if Burke was to publicly state that his mother punished JonBenet for her lack of hygiene, not really, but then again it would not explain away any prior abuse or her sexual injuries sustained at the time of her death.

Regardless of your preferred theory JonBenet was asphyxiated, whacked on the head, and sexually assaulted, this assault was then hidden from view, with her being redressed and dumped down in the wine-cellar?


No accident theory can seriously explain those facts away, and that before evidence of prior abuse, and Coroner Meyer's opinion that JonBenet had indulged in sexual behaviour is deployed.


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

There was a degree of sarcasm in what I said, simply to underline, that my opinion is simply that, and carries no real conviction without any supporting evidence, I prefer to base any theory I support or those that I do not, on the basis of fact and not entirely on ad-hominem arguments. I suspect the killers pleasure would be sexual rather than sadistic?

ok,I wasn't sure b/c there are sexual deviants who put the 2 together..a pain/pleasure thing at the same time..at least to them it is.have you not heard of bdsm,s &m,etc?I used to host a chat room,and I've seen it all,that's the only reason I know about it.

Would I be surprised if Burke was to publicly state that his mother punished JonBenet for her lack of hygiene, not really, but then again it would not explain away any prior abuse or her sexual injuries sustained at the time of her death.

I agree with that,and I think a lot of RDI's do as well.but that doesn't mean she was killed over it.but I think the prior abuse is separate from the staged abuse inflicted upon her that night.

Regardless of your preferred theory JonBenet was asphyxiated, whacked on the head, and sexually assaulted, this assault was then hidden from view, with her being redressed and dumped down in the wine-cellar?

well,I still don't think it was hidden,it's just that the FBI states that's how a parent would leave their child...wrapped up.

No accident theory can seriously explain those facts away, and that before evidence of prior abuse, and Coroner Meyer's opinion that JonBenet had indulged in sexual behaviour is deployed.

I think there are some separate things going on all at once that have to be looked at separately tho.the prior and staged abuse may not have had anything to do with her death.

 

[lovebites]

I often do think about that suitcase. I wonder if any fibers from the blanket were found on JB or were in the wine cellar? It seems a little strange that a college student would have had a blanket and a child's book in the same suitcase. It almost seems that the suitcase may have featured in prior molestations as a lure for JB to go to the basement. Every child likes Dr Seuss books, perhaps she was only allowed to read them if she went along with whatever was taking place. Does anyone know if there was anything other that particular book and blanket found in there?

JMO

YES!!!! There is someone who has wondered about this as I have! Perhaps the suitcase was a "kit" of sorts or as you put it "a lure". Wish there was a way of pursuing that train of thought further.


And to address UKGuy's theory, as much as I respect and enjoy your posts, I do find it implausible that ALL of the Ramsey men were pedophiles and indeed only a pedophile would molest a child. I'm also not of the belief that just because a man may not be having sexual relations with his wife that he'd develop a predilection for pedophilia - he'd just have an affair. After all, pedophilia is a specific and intensely perverse illness and not simply an answer to a normal male's need to sate his sex drive.