Is the molester also the killer?

[UKGuy]

But more than likely, it is the fact that her underwear were CONSTANTLY damp and Patsy was constantly giving her douches to keep infections at bay, but in actuality, she was keeping the infections thriving.

Solace,

Patsy never tried very hard did she, many pairs of underwear removed from JonBenet's underwear drawer in her bathroom, were soiled!


.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

I have read his book(s), and am aware of the more controversial decisions he has taken as a profiler, and do not consider his opinion to be reliable, since it can change according to the political circumstances. I am sure there are some Scotland Yard folks who believe that parents will do the same thing - maybe you have something over there that will enlighten you on the mo's of parents who kill and what they do afterwards.

Why are you banging on about "lovingly" wrapped up and she was "lovingly" wiped down ?

So what, was JonBenet lovingly asphyxiated, lovingly whacked upon her head, lovingly sexually assaulted, lovingly garroted, lovingly dumped in the wine-cellar?


.

No, she was not lovingly whacked across the head. She was strangled and pulled off the bed and thrust into a very hard object, more than likely it was the sink, which has a "rectangular" edge to it about the size of the rectangular wound on JB's head. This was done in a moment of rage and then sorrow came about. You have heard of this haven't you UK. A person does something horrific and is then consumed with remorse. I don't know if Patsy was consumed with remorse, but I would expect so, because John is aiding her in the staging.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

Patsy never tried very hard did she, many pairs of underwear removed from JonBenet's underwear drawer in her bathroom, were soiled!


.

What has Patsy never trying very hard have to do with the fact that JonBenet's underwear were constantly damp. Obviously, Neddie and Patsy were very lax in taking care of teaching her.

The fact is she was constantly damp and had rashes, rashes that Dr. Beouf was aware of. Rashes are very painful UK and any attempt to molest her with them, she would have been howling.

 

[Ames]

I think Burke has an ironclad alibi.

John is obviously in charge of the situation on the 26th. He makes sure Patsy isn't taken aside and questioned but he does nothing of the sort regarding Burke. Burke is left unprotected and shuttled away from the situation, which should tell everybody, Burke couldn't hurt him or Patsy with his words.

John knew what happened that night. He knows what information everybody in the house would know. He protects Patsy, not Burke.

Also John assembled one of the finest legal teams in history. If Burke had done anything he would have been protected by his age. This great legal team that knew every trick in the book wouldn't have used this basic law to protect this family?

Now some have suggested the legal team didn't want to use this legal protection because then everybody would be able to deduce it was Burke. We are talking murder here, not vandalism. If this all started with Burke, that legal team would have had this case put to bed in January of 97. You had a DA and a police chief who would have been hugging and kissing everybody in the room if this case could have been shut down. Since this didn't happen, you have to assume that was not an option because Burke wasn't involved.

I don't believe that Burke was involved either. I do believe, however, that he heard something that night. Patsy, in her interview...admitted that there had been alot of shouting between her and John...after discovering JB was "missing"....I will be happy to post that portion of the interview you need be. She said that they were BOTH frantic, and that there was alot of screaming. Well, then we have Burke...who is supposedly asleep...who admits later that he wasn't sleeping the whole time. He said that he had heard noises...and voices. So...yeah...he knows more than he is saying.

 

[UKGuy]

No, she was not lovingly whacked across the head. She was strangled and pulled off the bed and thrust into a very hard object, more than likely it was the sink, which has a "rectangular" edge to it about the size of the rectangular wound on JB's head. This was done in a moment of rage and then sorrow came about. You have heard of this haven't you UK. A person does something horrific and is then consumed with remorse. I don't know if Patsy was consumed with remorse, but I would expect so, because John is aiding her in the staging.

Solace,

I rather doubt it, the type of head injury inflicted upon JonBenet is not accidental, its the type sustained in a vehicle crash, it caused a severe fracture, and of course JonBenet was denied medical assistance.

I don't know if Patsy was consumed with remorse, but I would expect so, because John is aiding her in the staging.

There was that much remorse JonBenet was sexually assaulted then this was hidden beneath her clean size-12's, urine-soaked longjohns and the white blankets, possibly even after garroting her.

Some remorse?


.

 

[JMO8778]

What was JR doing the day BEFORE Christmas? Did he have time
and inclination to prep the MOVIE camera for HIS family
traditional Christmas MOVIE?

The missing TRADITIONAL family movie, either holds a view of
someone arriving at the home unexpectedly that would be a prime
suspect in the murder, OR OR it holds in full view a violent
confrontation by 'the' children.

OR OR it could have shown someone receiving a gift of 'THE' flashlight
found on the kitchen counter, NEW THOUGHT FOR
ME AND ""WE"" have NEVER posted that 'thought' before on this thread!!!!

WHY is the family traditional movie missing on 'Murder Day'?

.

good thoughts !! I wonder when he did get the FL,or if the kids got into a scuff over presents,toys,etc.
What gets me is in DOI,JR himself talks about how his family always did the movie and making the kids wait on xmas morning,then goes on the say that he did exactly the same thing in exactly the same way.He even uses italics for the words 'exactly' to emphasize that.I can't help but wonder what his point is?? Is he trying to say he did make a movie that morning but for some reason..it had to be done away with????Any thoughts?

Because he then says exactly the opposite..that after his oldest daughter died,he wanted to live more in the moment and not worry about taping it.

But then,when asked about the tape by LE,he says he forgot to recharge the batteries.

It's in DOI,pprback,P. 1-2. :waitasec:

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,


Its not something I take an interest in, also JonBenet's injuries are specific rather than diffuse, which you might expect from a prolonged sadistic asault?


Then if you have a theory as to why she was killed, you must explain why the two sexual assaults are not connected, particularly in the context of the wine-cellar staging which we know was intended to decieve the investigators.


The FBI were referring to the blankets. Her sexual assault was buried beneath layers of clothing, and blankets, if the intention of the wine-cellar staging was to leave the impression that a homicidal psychopath had murdered JonBenet and sexually assaulted her why did they not leave her minus her underwear and longjohns, they had no problem applying a garrote and leaving that on display. Her sexual assault was intentionally hidden from view.

To reiterate ... wrapped up. the parent may leave their child wrapped up, but in the context of a staged lust murder, there is no need to wipe her down and redress her in size-12 underwear, along with the urine-soaked longjohns.


It is possible that they are not connected, which is what some accident theories suggest to explain away her acute sexual injuries, but the accident theories have other inconsistencies which when all listed e.g. her urine-soaked longjohns, begin to make the accident theory although plausible less probable.


.

all good points,but then when I read about PR having the panic attack/flashbacks,and saying she and JR were both screaming when he came up from the basement,I can't help but think she was there when JB died.How could that tie in?

 

[Solace]

Solace,

I rather doubt it, the type of head injury inflicted upon JonBenet is not accidental, its the type sustained in a vehicle crash, it caused a severe fracture, and of course JonBenet was denied medical assistance. I said it was a "rage accident". We all agree that this was a horrific crime. I am not excusing her. I am saying that this was done in a moment of rage and if Patsy had her "wits" about her, she would not have done it. She was consumed with rage and she killed her.


There was that much remorse JonBenet was sexually assaulted then this was hidden beneath her clean size-12's, urine-soaked longjohns and the white blankets, possibly even after garroting her.

Some remorse?

No one said this is a nice crime UK. Murder never is. Do you believe that every parent who kills their child has no remorse. Is that what you are saying or are you saying that just Patsy and John have no remorse?


.

See above

 

[Albert18]

I don't believe that Burke was involved either. I do believe, however, that he heard something that night. Patsy, in her interview...admitted that there had been alot of shouting between her and John...after discovering JB was "missing"....I will be happy to post that portion of the interview you need be. She said that they were BOTH frantic, and that there was alot of screaming.

I have always assumed that story by Patsy was a fabrication. JonBenet was never missing so there would be no reason to find her missing. They could have acted out that drama but who would they have been trying to impress. They were trying to insulate Burke, not use him to corroborate their behavior.

I'm sure Burke did hear stuff that night but I doubt he saw or heard anything that was substantial. I also doubt he was ever told more as he got older.

 

[Solace]

I have always assumed that story by Patsy was a fabrication. JonBenet was never missing so there would be no reason to find her missing. They could have acted out that drama but who would they have been trying to impress. They were trying to insulate Burke, not use him to corroborate their behavior.

I'm sure Burke did hear stuff that night but I doubt he saw or heard anything that was substantial. I also doubt he was ever told more as he got older.

Talk about having something to wonder about.

 

[Camper]

ANY momma knows that IF IF IF 'their baby' wets their diaper
time after time WITHOUT MOMMA cleansing the area when a rash
appears BABY is gonna cry from the pain and aggravation sooner
or later.

JonBenet was not a baby, and when JonBenet had the itchy, scratchy
result from wetting her bed, panty again and again IF IF JBR did not
clean herself, I AM BETTING that her 'mom' thought bubble bath
would do the job both in the CLEANING and the taking ODOR away from
the tiny childs body.

There is NO WAY anyone can make me believe that her mom gave
her douches.

I could believe it IF I were not very bright.

.

 

[Ames]

I have always assumed that story by Patsy was a fabrication. JonBenet was never missing so there would be no reason to find her missing. They could have acted out that drama but who would they have been trying to impress. They were trying to insulate Burke, not use him to corroborate their behavior.

I'm sure Burke did hear stuff that night but I doubt he saw or heard anything that was substantial. I also doubt he was ever told more as he got older.

Yeah, notice that I said that Burke said that he had heard VOICES....not screaming. I am guessing that he heard whispering by Patsy and John. You are right, if JB had of really been missing, I am sure that there would have been screaming and carrying on....but, since she wasn't really missing, I feel sure that the only sounds that Burke heard were them quietly talking, because they didn't want to wake him up...thats why he heard VOICES.

 

[DeeDee249]

I can't believe a pediatrician would suggest douching a 6-year old. PR must have come up with that one herself. Repeated douching COULD cause injuries to a tiny vagina, wonder why that wasn't screamed from the rooftops by the defense lawyers. So we have a mom who repeatedly inserts a douch into a small child, and repeatedly gives bubble baths even after being told by the child's doctor that they are causing infections. Ingorance? Or covering up for something else going on?
If the housekeepers heard crying from the bathroom when PR was in there with JBR, that'd make me wonder if there was anything else going on in there. That kind of irritation can also make it painful to urinate, so what happend in a child is that they hold it and hold it til they can't hold it anymore and they don't make it to a toilet in time. That could have been JBR's problem too.

 

[Toltec]

ANY momma knows that IF IF IF 'their baby' wets their diaper
time after time WITHOUT MOMMA cleansing the area when a rash
appears BABY is gonna cry from the pain and aggravation sooner
or later.

JonBenet was not a baby, and when JonBenet had the itchy, scratchy
result from wetting her bed, panty again and again IF IF JBR did not
clean herself, I AM BETTING that her 'mom' thought bubble bath
would do the job both in the CLEANING and the taking ODOR away from
the tiny childs body.

There is NO WAY anyone can make me believe that her mom gave
her douches.

I could believe it IF I were not very bright.

.

Agree with you Camper...why would a mother douche a six-year-old? Douching usually starts when a girl starts menstruating or becomes sexually active...(don't go there)

Kids wet their pants. They usually wet them because they are too busy to take the time to use the toilet. It's at the last minute that they dash to the bathroom and sometimes you make it, sometimes you don't. My nephew usually waits until the last minute and sometimes he comes to me and says Aunt Toltec, I wet myself.

Seems like JonBenet played hard and had indeed wet herself. If she doesn't wash and change her panties she is indeed going to get a rash.

 

[JMO8778]

It is thought that some of the vag trauma was indeed from corporal punishment being metered out to JB for soiling herself or the bed.As well as CK here said she knows ppl who know that,for sure,it was a big concern,although some of it was thought to be from possible molestation as well.

 

[UKGuy]

It is thought that some of the vag trauma was indeed from corporal punishment being metered out to JB for soiling herself or the bed.As well as CK here said she knows ppl who know that,for sure,it was a big concern,although some of it was thought to be from possible molestation as well.

JMO8778,

So if the vaginal trauma is caused by corporal punishment then thats prior abuse, just as much as if she is being molested?

But JonBenet's genitals show no external brusies or abrasions, would you not expect some from previous punishment sessions?

As I mentioned already I would not be surprised to hear that Patsy disciplined JonBenet for bedwetting in some manner, then again from what I've read, Patsy was preoccupied with her cancer, and expanding her social life to be constantly intervening in JonBenet's hygiene?

Imo corporal punishment or douching do not explain the particular genital injuries inflicted upon JonBenet. In his book Steve Thomas's suggests there may be a link between bedwetting and JonBenet's death e.g. his Toilet Rage theory, I reckon this is a literary device and probably one of the many theories discussed amongst the investigators, but it is in conflict with various aspects of the forensic evidence. If someone had been douching JonBenet then there should have been physical evidence of this e.g. proprietary brand names in Patsy's drug-drawer, LHP would have noticed, or been asked to bin cotton swabs etc, also at 6-years old JonBenet is too young and internally she would not be mature enough require such an unneccessary procedure.

Douching or corporal punishment separately or together do not explain her prior sexual assault or the acute one at the time of her death, anyway, assuming they occurred, what has a sexual assault to do with douching or corporal punishment, the symptoms and side-effects will be different, and if it was simply staging, why wipe her down and bury it beneath layers of clothing?


.

 

[Camper]

Thanks Toltec, right on.

Another thought bubble came to my mind.

Bubble bath that is not rinsed off with clear water AFTER
the bath CAN and often does cause irritation as well.

I had an adult friend that did showers. Soaped herself
generously and rinsed herself quickly from above, but did
NOT take special care to rinse her legs WHERE the soap goes
FROM above. She developed a horrid rash on her legs and
DOCTOR told her to RINSE her legs. Rash cleared right up.

NONE of us are immune from ignorant behavior now and then.
How to be a 'good mom' is not a well taught topic. It is mostly
a monkey see monkey do process.

.

 

[rashomon]

Let us not forget that small cut fibres from the garrote rope
were found on JBR's bed.

If memory serves, the rope fibers were not from the garrote.

 

[Toltec]

Thanks Toltec, right on.

Another thought bubble came to my mind.

Bubble bath that is not rinsed off with clear water AFTER
the bath CAN and often does cause irritation as well.

I had an adult friend that did showers. Soaped herself
generously and rinsed herself quickly from above, but did
NOT take special care to rinse her legs WHERE the soap goes
FROM above. She developed a horrid rash on her legs and
DOCTOR told her to RINSE her legs. Rash cleared right up.

NONE of us are immune from ignorant behavior now and then.
How to be a 'good mom' is not a well taught topic. It is mostly
a monkey see monkey do process.

.

So true....my daughter, who is two-years-old now wants to take bubble baths. I don't use bubble bath but her liquid baby soap that bubbles up. After her bath I rinse her off.

There is no such thing as a perfect mother. We learn by example and also as the child grows. I have been fortunate in that my child had only two cases of diaper rash. She is still not potty trained,

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

So if the vaginal trauma is caused by corporal punishment then thats prior abuse, just as much as if she is being molested?

But JonBenet's genitals show no external brusies or abrasions, would you not expect some from previous punishment sessions?

As I mentioned already I would not be surprised to hear that Patsy disciplined JonBenet for bedwetting in some manner, then again from what I've read, Patsy was preoccupied with her cancer, and expanding her social life to be constantly intervening in JonBenet's hygiene?

Imo corporal punishment or douching do not explain the particular genital injuries inflicted upon JonBenet. In his book Steve Thomas's suggests there may be a link between bedwetting and JonBenet's death e.g. his Toilet Rage theory, I reckon this is a literary device and probably one of the many theories discussed amongst the investigators, but it is in conflict with various aspects of the forensic evidence. If someone had been douching JonBenet then there should have been physical evidence of this e.g. proprietary brand names in Patsy's drug-drawer, LHP would have noticed, or been asked to bin cotton swabs etc, also at 6-years old JonBenet is too young and internally she would not be mature enough require such an unneccessary procedure.

Douching or corporal punishment separately or together do not explain her prior sexual assault or the acute one at the time of her death, anyway, assuming they occurred, what has a sexual assault to do with douching or corporal punishment, the symptoms and side-effects will be different, and if it was simply staging, why wipe her down and bury it beneath layers of clothing?


.

ST thinks she was corporally cleaned,as well as I think he had inside info on it he didn't reveal,and rightly so.but I don't discount sexual abuse as well.it seems some of the autopsy report may have been held back in that respect,regarding her external parts? If I'm thinking correctly,there is only an internal description there.