Is the molester also the killer?

[UKGuy]

ST thinks she was corporally cleaned,as well as I think he had inside info on it he didn't reveal,and rightly so.but I don't discount sexual abuse as well.it seems some of the autopsy report may have been held back in that respect,regarding her external parts? If I'm thinking correctly,there is only an internal description there.

JMO8778,
Yes he does, but it is only one of many options, I reckon he is attempting to avoid being libellous at this point, by offering these options, the actual actions taken e.g. search warrants issued to look for child suggest they considered one theory more seriously? Also Coroner Meyer's private opinion was not published in his book, nor were any of his autopsy notes regarding the state of JonBenet's vagina!

Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation:

In mid-September, a panel of pedatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation -- that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.

There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation

We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse

So what was the corporal punishment that Steve Thomas was referring to?

Or did JonBenet suffer the indignity of both genital corporal punishment and sexual abuse?


So sad ...

 

[Ames]

JMO8778,
Yes he does, but it is only one of many options, I reckon he is attempting to avoid being libellous at this point, by offering these options, the actual actions taken e.g. search warrants issued to look for child suggest they considered one theory more seriously? Also Coroner Meyer's private opinion was not published in his book, nor were any of his autopsy notes regarding the state of JonBenet's vagina!

Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation:


So what was the corporal punishment that Steve Thomas was referring to?

Or did JonBenet suffer the indignity of both genital corporal punishment and sexual abuse?


So sad ...

Yes, it is. It is truly one of the saddest cases that I have ever heard.

 

[BBB167893]

Makes me damn mad, I can tell you.

 

[DeeDee249]

The corporal punishment could have been the douching, which had to have been very painful for JBR. She must have dreaded it. I can totally see PR, furious at JBR's repeated wetting and soiling, angrily telling her daughter that unless it stopped, the douching had to continue.
NO doctor would have ever instructed a mother to do that to a 6-year old, no matter how many infections she had.

 

[Ames]

Makes me damn mad, I can tell you.

Me too.

 

[Ames]

The corporal punishment could have been the douching, which had to have been very painful for JBR. She must have dreaded it. I can totally see PR, furious at JBR's repeated wetting and soiling, angrily telling her daughter that unless it stopped, the douching had to continue.
NO doctor would have ever instructed a mother to do that to a 6-year old, no matter how many infections she had.

I agree...I believe that the corporal punishment may have been the douching. I, too, could imagine PR doing that to JB. I believe thats what all the screaming was about in the bathroom, that the housekeeper talks about. You are right...NO DR. would ever intruct a mother to do that to her 6 year old.

 

[Solace]

JMO8778,

So if the vaginal trauma is caused by corporal punishment then thats prior abuse, just as much as if she is being molested? Being raped by your father and having your mother clean you by douching are hardly the same UK. We all know JB is abused, from the pageants alone, which are legal and douching is probably legal too just not humane and certainly not intelligent if you are trying to get rid of an infection. But it is not even close to having to perform a sex act on your father. Patsy probably thought she was doing the right thing but was not.

But JonBenet's genitals show no external brusies or abrasions, would you not expect some from previous punishment sessions? She is being subjected to douching UK not whacked.

As I mentioned already I would not be surprised to hear that Patsy disciplined JonBenet for bedwetting in some manner, then again from what I've read, Patsy was preoccupied with her cancer, and expanding her social life to be constantly intervening in JonBenet's hygiene? If you don't teach a child cleanliness at the start, and then start when she is 4 or 5, it doesn't have much effect. So the effect is a constant argument and the child ends up physically uncomfortable and miserable. Neddie never taught her and neither did Patsy (not very well) - and also she is use to getting what she wants it would seem, so she did not feel much like learning hygiene.

Imo corporal punishment or douching do not explain the particular genital injuries inflicted upon JonBenet. In his book Steve Thomas's suggests there may be a link between bedwetting and JonBenet's death e.g. his Toilet Rage theory, I reckon this is a literary device and probably one of the many theories discussed amongst the investigators, but it is in conflict with various aspects of the forensic evidence. If someone had been douching JonBenet then there should have been physical evidence of this e.g. proprietary brand names in Patsy's drug-drawer, LHP would have noticed, or been asked to bin cotton swabs etc, also at 6-years old JonBenet is too young and internally she would not be mature enough require such an unneccessary procedure. That is the point UK.
Colorado, who no longer posts here, said she knew that the douching was an ongoing thing - never posted her source, but said it was common knowledge amongst a chosen few of Patsy's friends.

Douching or corporal punishment separately or together do not explain her prior sexual assault (alleged prior sexual assulet) or the acute one at the time of her death (one more time, this one is staging), anyway, assuming they occurred, what has a sexual assault to do with douching or corporal punishment, the symptoms and side-effects will be different, and if it was simply staging, why wipe her down and bury it beneath layers of clothing?


.

My replies above.

 

[UKGuy]

My replies above.

Solace,

Douching may have occurred who knows, but it does not explain JonBenet's injuries or why she was killed?

Neither douching or corporal punishment are sufficient to account for all of JonBenet's injuries or offer a motivation for her death, since as you suggest yourself neither may be seen as illegal.

Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation:

We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse

Denying the facts or ignoring the forensic evidence will not assist you in reaching a resolution in this case.


.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

Douching may have occurred who knows, but it does not explain JonBenet's injuries or why she was killed? No, douching does not. Who said it did? But since there is no reason to kill her and she is known for wetting the bed and for having nonstop rashes due to the damp underwear and since they were at a party shortly before the murder and no one noticed anything unusual and since Patsy and John and Burke all lie about her walking in the house and since Patsy and John lie about Burke being up and since Patsy's fibers are found in incriminating areas and John's too, and since Patsy makes many mistakes in her interviews such as "John screamed for me from the basement", because of all of this and more, a reasonable person might assume that the parents are involved. One may assume sort of a rage attack happened that night. One could assume that a sex party was going on, but that is highly, highly unlikely

Steve Thomas has been doing this for some time. He is not a novice as John would have us believe, and I think that his opinion matters a great deal. And I agree with him.

Neither douching or corporal punishment are sufficient to account for all of JonBenet's injuries or offer a motivation for her death, since as you suggest yourself neither may be seen as illegal. Who said douching or corporal punishment account for all her injuries. They could account just for the vaginal injuries.

Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation:

Denying the facts or ignoring the forensic evidence will not assist you in reaching a resolution in this case.


.

I couldn't agree more UK. Lets get with the program here.

 

[JMO8778]

The corporal punishment could have been the douching, which had to have been very painful for JBR. She must have dreaded it. I can totally see PR, furious at JBR's repeated wetting and soiling, angrily telling her daughter that unless it stopped, the douching had to continue.
NO doctor would have ever instructed a mother to do that to a 6-year old, no matter how many infections she had.

says a lot about her state of mind I think.she was either a nut,evil,or both.

 

[JMO8778]

Steve Thomas has been doing this for some time. He is not a novice as John would have us believe, and I think that his opinion matters a great deal. And I agree with him.


I couldn't agree more UK. Lets get with the program here.

I just really wanted to SLAP JR when he said ST was so young he resembled a boy scout.what a cheap shot ! along with all the other nonsense he said,inc. trying to explain away PR's rage as her just 'refusing to be bullied by a belligerent cop'. oh,please...what a crock !!

 

[DeeDee249]

I just really wanted to SLAP JR when he said ST was so young he resembled a boy scout.what a cheap shot ! along with all the other nonsense he said,inc. trying to explain away PR's rage as her just 'refusing to be bullied by a belligerent cop'. oh,please...what a crock !!

Keep in mind, though, the Rs and their team will do anything to discredit ST or anyone else that is circling in on the truth. That comment by JR was just another ploy to make it seem like anything ST said wasn't credible.

 

[BBB167893]

Like Jimmy Durante might say, "I'm disgustipated!"

 

[Solace]

I just really wanted to SLAP JR when he said ST was so young he resembled a boy scout.what a cheap shot ! along with all the other nonsense he said,inc. trying to explain away PR's rage as her just 'refusing to be bullied by a belligerent cop'. oh,please...what a crock !!

Especially since just before coming on this case, he had rescued a two year old girl from a pedofile who had her for two days. The man is a hero. Period.

 

[Darlene733510]

Talking about the douching, and not finding anything in the drug drawer. Years ago it was common for Drs. to advise patients to use a small amount of white vinegar in lukewater as a solution for douching.

If JB had any small leisions or abrasions, I can see why the vinegar solution would make her cry. It must have burned as it was administred. I wonder if the Dr. advised this, or perhaps PR or Nedra concocted this remedy? It seems more like it was something Nedra might mention - as I doubt Drs. were still advising this treatment in 1996.

 

[Solace]

Like Jimmy Durante might say, "I'm disgustipated!"

I thought that was Daffy Duck.

 

[UKGuy]

Talking about the douching, and not finding anything in the drug drawer. Years ago it was common for Drs. to advise patients to use a small amount of white vinegar in lukewater as a solution for douching.

If JB had any small leisions or abrasions, I can see why the vinegar solution would make her cry. It must have burned as it was administred. I wonder if the Dr. advised this, or perhaps PR or Nedra concocted this remedy? It seems more like it was something Nedra might mention - as I doubt Drs. were still advising this treatment in 1996.

Darlene733510,

6-year old girls do not need douching, no doctor would recommend it since JonBenet at six-years is not internally mature enough!


.

 

[Darlene733510]

Certainly a Dr. would not recommend douching for a child - BUT another person may decide to do it without a Drs. advice. How many people self medicate - or use their own method of treatment for an ailment.

I do believe PR was using the douches on JB - probably not ordered by the Dr.

 

[Toltec]

For crying out loud....Patsy was not Sybils mother! She did not douch JonBenet! What purpose does that serve for a bedwetter?

An accident: a split moment of rage...an act of self preservation...staging.

I do not believe there is a conspiracy going on, e.g. child and such.

As for the sexual trauma...my only theory coming out of that one is that some child did this...I do not know who, what or where....

 

[Solace]

For crying out loud....Patsy was not Sybils mother! She did not douch JonBenet! What purpose does that serve for a bedwetter?

An accident: a split moment of rage...an act of self preservation...staging.

I do not believe there is a conspiracy going on, e.g. child and such.

As for the sexual trauma...my only theory coming out of that one is that some child did this...I do not know who, what or where....

I don't know about that Toltec. As I understand it, she did and often. It was not because of the bedwetting, it was because of the rashes she had from damp underwear. You think a child did this?