Israel Keyes: General Discussion

[dub]

If you've followed the podcast you'll know that Josh looked into their case in depth early on and concluded that they weren't Keyes' victims. Recently, however, he has revisited the case and is not so convinced that they can be ruled out.

I don't recognise these people but maybe they were discussed in an early season and I've just forgotten them.

I've definitely followed the podcast, but it's been a long time since I listened to season 1 so I don't remember Josh ever saying he didn't think Kami and Gene were victims. My read on it is he seems like he thinks it's a strong possibility now--I'd guess he feels more strongly about it than I do--but who can really say?

And Petrone and Imbo were on the Namus 45. They are the only couple on there aside from the Curriers. As far as I can recall they have only been discussed in passing on the podcast because there's really nothing to suggest that Keyes either was or was not responsible for them. I'm pretty sure there's a Namus 45 episode on them though.

 

[dub]

For me, "pairs" or "couples" could also include, eg, a couple of female friends leaving a bar or club and hitching a ride with the wrong person; or just two people travelling together because they met by chance, got on well and felt it would be safer - Pamela Buckley and James Freund, for example. Or two siblings or a parent and child. If LE has a narrow view of what a pair or couple might look like to Keyes, they could be overlooking potential victims.

If you want to take Keyes at his word (big IF haha) then he said specifically that the pair was male-female, and separately noted that the female was "older" (whatever that means to him) but gave no descriptives of the male.

I think a mother and adult son is a strong possibility, but could definitely be two unconnected people that were at the same wrong place, same wrong time (which seems to be the angle TCBS is focused on).

 

[dub]

Always get sad when I think about the Lake Crescent and other lake victims. It's so beautiful and serene there. Obviously way too vast and deep to ever usefully dredge or search. It's just sad to think about him dumping victims there (I know it's not 100% confirmed) and them never being found or getting their names back.

I could definitely see them being transient folks camping out there, or people who otherwise would not necessarily be reported missing. Family may not know they ever went to Washington, if they have family looking for them at all.

I don't know how I feel about Eugene and Kami vs. them just drowning, but if people that are better-versed on Keyes think it's possible then I could see it.

I've looked at the depth maps of Lake Crescent extensively and cross-referenced with Keyes' statements about Lake Crescent and my own observations from visiting there.

There was some extrapolating and consideration of some big "maybe's" on my part, but I know exactly where the first place I'd look there would be.

(This is zoomed in on the northeast arm of the lake)


Edit: When TCBS was searching the lake, their location was off that boat launch at the bottom of the map (the red thing), I'm guessing the exact spot was around/just inside the 172 depth marker. So clearly they are not in agreement with me on this haha

 

[moonglow123]

I've looked at the depth maps of Lake Crescent extensively and cross-referenced with Keyes' statements about Lake Crescent and my own observations from visiting there.

There was some extrapolating and consideration of some big "maybe's" on my part, but I know exactly where the first place I'd look there would be.
View attachment 636015

(This is zoomed in on the northeast arm of the lake)


Edit: When TCBS was searching the lake, their location was off that boat launch at the bottom of the map (the red thing), I'm guessing the exact spot was around/just inside the 172 depth marker. So clearly they are not in agreement with me on this haha

Very interesting. Do you think he definitely dumped victim(s) there? The evidence on the boat and his own words make me think he did, but I know some people think he was lying and stretching the truth about everything.

 

[dub]

Very interesting. Do you think he definitely dumped victim(s) there? The evidence on the boat and his own words make me think he did, but I know some people think he was lying and stretching the truth about everything.

Not definitely, but yeah probably.

I think there's an outside chance that it wasn't actually in Lake Crescent, but instead in Crescent Lake in southern Oregon. Part of the reason I think that could be the case (which you probably already know, as it sounds like you've been to Lake Crescent) is that Lake Crescent is super exposed and well-traveled. It just seems like an insane place to dump a body when there are so many more remote places close by (such as Lake Ozette, where I'm pretty sure he also dumped a body.)

That's also part of why the northeast arm interests me as a dump site, it's much less traveled/exposed than the rest of the lake.


The other thing is though, if he dumped a body in Lake Crescent I don't think he used the Bayliner. I think he used a canoe or something. I believe the boat evidence was from the Lake Ozette disposal and/or somewhere else entirely.

This is kind of hard to explain but... he talks about the depth where he dumped the Crescent body being deeper than his fish finder could detect, but it was in an underwater channel or hole in the lake where he obviously could detect the depth around it (because he knew there was a channel/hole.)

I don't recall whether it was Keyes or the FBI that noted it, but there was something about the fish finder having a depth range of 180 feet. But I know the exact model of fish finder he had on the Bayliner, and it has a range way deeper than 180 feet (and possibly deeper than anywhere on Lake Crescent), so he was either lying about his entire description of the body dump, or he used a different fish finder, which would mean a different boat, as the one on the Bayliner was dash-mounted and came with the boat.

I hope this makes sense!

 

[moonglow123]

Not definitely, but yeah probably.

I think there's an outside chance that it wasn't actually in Lake Crescent, but instead in Crescent Lake in southern Oregon. Part of the reason I think that could be the case (which you probably already know, as it sounds like you've been to Lake Crescent) is that Lake Crescent is super exposed and well-traveled. It just seems like an insane place to dump a body when there are so many more remote places close by (such as Lake Ozette, where I'm pretty sure he also dumped a body.)

That's also part of why the northeast arm interests me as a dump site, it's much less traveled/exposed than the rest of the lake.


The other thing is though, if he dumped a body in Lake Crescent I don't think he used the Bayliner. I think he used a canoe or something. I believe the boat evidence was from the Lake Ozette disposal and/or somewhere else entirely.

This is kind of hard to explain but... he talks about the depth where he dumped the Crescent body being deeper than his fish finder could detect, but it was in an underwater channel or hole in the lake where he obviously could detect the depth around it (because he knew there was a channel/hole.)

I don't recall whether it was Keyes or the FBI that noted it, but there was something about the fish finder having a depth range of 180 feet. But I know the exact model of fish finder he had on the Bayliner, and it has a range way deeper than 180 feet (and possibly deeper than anywhere on Lake Crescent), so he was either lying about his entire description of the body dump, or he used a different fish finder, which would mean a different boat, as the one on the Bayliner was dash-mounted and came with the boat.

I hope this makes sense!

Very good points, and thank you for the detailed answer!

I was wondering all of that. I have been to Lake Crescent when visiting Washington, though haven't done much beyond dipping my toes in. Was always sad to think about him dumping victims there, though it's so well-traversed as you said - you make a good case for the other lakes instead.

Is sad that it's such a dead end and there's very little interest in investigating it now that Keyes has been gone for so long and there's no official idea who the victims may've been. I wonder how much they're still investigating him, if at all.

 

[dub]

Very good points, and thank you for the detailed answer!

I was wondering all of that. I have been to Lake Crescent when visiting Washington, though haven't done much beyond dipping my toes in. Was always sad to think about him dumping victims there, though it's so well-traversed as you said - you make a good case for the other lakes instead.

Is sad that it's such a dead end and there's very little interest in investigating it now that Keyes has been gone for so long and there's no official idea who the victims may've been. I wonder how much they're still investigating him, if at all.

From TCBS seemingly there is still some level of investigation ongoing, but it doesn’t seem like there’s a whole lot.

And I don’t think I even dipped my toes in when I went there haha but what I did do was check out the north shore of the lake. I didn’t mention this in the previous post but there is an isolated beach where you can launch canoes and kayaks (which if my theory is correct could be where he set of from). There is also a pit toilet in the parking lot of that beach that, given what we know of Keyes, if I were looking for a body I’d take a look in just to make sure.

On the above map, that beach is just west of the north shore boat launch. You can see two little roads on the map there that head down to the beach - it’s at the end of one of the two, can’t remember which.