Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #3

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  • #421
cottonweaver said:
well obviously- as is hostage taking.
Nobody could have any different reaction when you see any of the footage or images of the atrocities committed by terrorists ( clip of Hamas terrorists with Israeli babies) :

However that wasn't the issue I was raising

But when one of our most prominent campaigners against anti-semitism Dame Margaret Hodge is raising the issue, or the D Gen of the International Red Cross doing the same or Joseph Borrell, or this morning Conservative MPs like Crispin Blunt ( a former Foreign Affairs Select Committee) are on SKY TV raising Geneva convention on collective punishment it's not something I'm going to deny as fake news.


what I had also wondered was whether not recognising a state had a bearing. Apparently it doesn't according to the ICC Prosecutor, interviewed here https://x.com/IntlCrimCourt/status/1712865430811947460?s=20


Links for all the others I've mentioned, just for sourcing purposes:
Hodge Israel’s response to this terror must be resolute. But it must remain consistent with international law | Margaret Hodge
Blunt https://x.com/amandaakass/status/1713107932777185556?s=20
Borrell Israel's siege of Gaza is illegal, EU says

Financial Times: Explainer ' Rules of war: International Law and the Israel- Hamas conflict Rules of war: international law and the Israel-Hamas conflict | Financial Times
Click to expand...
Thus far Israel is compling wth International Law.

Full stop.

These "pre-emptive calls" of War Crimes are ridiculous. Israel has no obigation to provide food, fuel or water etc to the entity that they are at war with. No other nation before or since has been required to do so either. To be clear: Hamas is acting on behalf of the Gaza. Whether the Gaza is 'recognized' or not doesn't mean diddly because Hamas has clearly stated that they are acting on behalf of Gaza (IE: Hamas, thus Gaza ARE the adverse power in this situation). They have reaped what they have sown.

Cutting those things off is not a war crime and nor is cutting off the Gaza.

Here's another link for you. Let me know which War Crimes you think Israel is comitting. Just glancing at the list, and from my own personal knowledge, I've got at least 10 that can list for Hamas on behalf of Gaza (the entirity of para 2 for example as civilians are protected persons under the conventions).

For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:
  1. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:
    1. Wilful killing - Have you seen the concert footae and that from the Kibbutz'?
    2. Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments; - Beating them, lighting them on fire alive, rape, beheading via garden hoe, also all caught on camera.
    3. Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health; - see above that they have done gleefuy while cheering and dancing around those victims
    4. Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly; - Concert goers at a celebration concert for peace / Farmers and families from Kibbutz none of which was due to military necessiy and all of which was wanton and unlawful. (Note the "unlawful and unwanton & not justified by military necessity" bit: that explains why Israel is allowed to target military targets despite Hamas placing those military targets and tunnels in and under schools/mosques/residential areas etc)
    5. Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power; - Heck, I'd even argue this one in court as I've seen the video where they have two young Israeli women come out of the Kibbutz gate to try to lure in the IDF forces in on behalf of the terrorists hidden behind the gate. The women walk out but manage to signal that all is NOT OK to the IDF troops who then rescue them and get into firefight with the Terrorists. Hamas attempted to have them do their dirty bidding, but failed.
    6. Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial; - Indeed. Military = Prisoner of War .... who were summarily executed by Hamas without trial once taken alive by them. Camera footage proves it. Civilian = Protected Person .... also summarliy executed by Hamas without trial for any crime. Also caught on camera.
    7. Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement; - This one should be really obvious even to people sitting in the nosebleed section. Also tonnes of footage of Hamas terrorists removing non-combattants and wounded from Israeli territory to Gaza (Hamas' territory). That's a war crime.
    8. Taking of hostages. - Lots of footage of this too.

Every single subpara of para 2 has been hit by Hamas on behalf of Palestinians, but we want to wax poetic about crap that Israel actually has not done and try to turn things that are NOT war crimes into them. That's pretty vile.

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect
www.un.org
 
  • #422
clip of 'Several hundred protesters including numerous families of unaccounted-for hostages calling on Netanyahu to resign at spontaneous protest outside Defense Ministry headquarters in Tel Aviv.'

sorry can't find a better source but this source was shared by BBC's Mark Urban ( Diplo Editor)
 
  • #423
  • #424
  • #425
Vern said:
Thus far Israel is compling wth International Law.

Full stop.

These "pre-emptive calls" of War Crimes are ridiculous. Israel has no obigation to provide food, fuel or water etc to the entity that they are at war with. No other nation before or since has been required to do so either. To be clear: Hamas is acting on behalf of the Gaza. Whether the Gaza is 'recognized' or not doesn't mean diddly because Hamas has clearly stated that they are acting on behalf of Gaza (IE: Hamas, thus Gaza ARE the adverse power in this situation). They have reaped what they have sown.

Cutting those things off is not a war crime and nor is cutting off the Gaza.

Here's another link for you. Let me know which War Crimes you think Israel is comitting. Just glancing at the list, and from my own personal knowledge, I've got at least 10 that can list for Hamas on behalf of Gaza (the entirity of para 2 for example as civilians are protected persons under the conventions).

For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:
  1. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:
    1. Wilful killing - Have you seen the concert footae and that from the Kibbutz'?
    2. Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments; - Beating them, lighting them on fire alive, rape, beheading via garden hoe, also all caught on camera.
    3. Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health; - see above that they have done gleefuy while cheering and dancing around those victims
    4. Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly; - Concert goers at a celebration concert for peace / Farmers and families from Kibbutz none of which was due to military necessiy and all of which was wanton and unlawful. (Note the "unlawful and unwanton & not justified by military necessity" bit: that explains why Israel is allowed to target military targets despite Hamas placing those military targets and tunnels in and under schools/mosques/residential areas etc)
    5. Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power; - Heck, I'd even argue this one in court as I've seen the video where they have two young Israeli women come out of the Kibbutz gate to try to lure in the IDF forces in on behalf of the terrorists hidden behind the gate. The women walk out but manage to signal that all is NOT OK to the IDF troops who then rescue them and get into firefight with the Terrorists. Hamas attempted to have them do their dirty bidding, but failed.
    6. Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial; - Indeed. Military = Prisoner of War .... who were summarily executed by Hamas without trial once taken alive by them. Camera footage proves it. Civilian = Protected Person .... also summarliy executed by Hamas without trial for any crime. Also caught on camera.
    7. Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement; - This one should be really obvious even to people sitting in the nosebleed section. Also tonnes of footage of Hamas terrorists removing non-combattants and wounded from Israeli territory to Gaza (Hamas' territory). That's a war crime.
    8. Taking of hostages. - Lots of footage of this too.

Every single subpara of para 2 has been hit by Hamas on behalf of Palestinians, but we want to wax poetic about crap that Israel actually has not done and try to turn things that are NOT war crimes into them. That's pretty vile.

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect
www.un.org
Click to expand...

AS ALREADY STATED - nobody & certainly not me are or have ever claimed that Hamas have not committed those atrocities and war crimes.
That was not the topic of the original post I was replying to.

as per link I already supplied - the Additional Protocols.


Regarding the blockade ( fuel, water etc)

What are the rules governing siege tactics?​

The laws covering approaches such as the deprivation of basic services for civilians are piecemeal, but there are relevant provisions.
The Geneva Convention’s 1977 additional protocols prohibit the use of starvation as a weapon of war. It is forbidden to “attack, destroy, remove or render useless . . . objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population”. These include “foodstuffs, agricultural areas . . . drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works”.

That is from the Financial Times. https://archive.ph/nzq19#selection-2331.0-2343.303

I am sorry if the FT or the protocols are ' vile' as you say. I can't do anything about that
 
  • #426
  • #427
  • #428
cottonweaver said:
AS ALREADY STATED - nobody & certainly not me are or have ever claimed that Hamas have not committed those atrocities and war crimes.
That was not the topic of the original post I was replying to.

as per link I already supplied - the Additional Protocols.


Regarding the blockade ( fuel, water etc)

What are the rules governing siege tactics?​

The laws covering approaches such as the deprivation of basic services for civilians are piecemeal, but there are relevant provisions.
The Geneva Convention’s 1977 additional protocols prohibit the use of starvation as a weapon of war. It is forbidden to “attack, destroy, remove or render useless . . . objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population”. These include “foodstuffs, agricultural areas . . . drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works”.

That is from the Financial Times. https://archive.ph/nzq19#selection-2331.0-2343.303

I am sorry if the FT or the protocols are ' vile' as you say. I can't do anything about that
Click to expand...
I say again: Israel is under zero obligation to provide food, fuel, water etc to the adverse power (Hamas, thus the Gaza) in this instance. There is a border with Egypt that has always been the border used by Gaza for this.

I'm sorry that Hamas destoryed Gaza's water lines to make rockets with them (also all on camera). I'm sorry that Hamas built their military targets under (missile tunnels anyone??) in, and on top of schools (Launching rockets), residential areas (I pasted in the footage last night of the daisy chain reaction of explosions that occured in a residential area when Israel hit one of these tunnels and then the missiles within it just started exploding in a chain under the streets and hosues for a couple blocks) and launches rockets etc from their feilds.

Note in my previous post I pointed out the importance of the actual protocol in my post that you're quoting (the protocol wording is in red as is my previous --- and still valid answer to this post):

  1. Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly; - Concert goers at a celebration concert for peace / Farmers and families from Kibbutz none of which was due to military necessiy and all of which was wanton and unlawful. (Note the "unlawful and unwanton & not justified by military necessity" bit: that explains why Israel is allowed to target military targets despite Hamas placing those military targets and tunnels in and under schools/mosques/residential areas etc)
Hamas has turned these thnigs into legitimate military targets. That's the actual war crime NOT Israel striking them despite what the FT and others want to say. I'm sorry I can't do anything about that for them.They need to actualy learn to read - the details of the actual protocol text are important lest they wrongly accuse someone of committing war crimes.

The protocols aren't vile (but you already knew that I didn't think that anyway). It's the vileness of claiming Israel is committing war crimes when it has done absolutely no such thing. That's what is vile.

People don't like that Israel is legitimately taking out underground tunnels that are filled with rockets hat pose a direct threat to their citizens because they are in residential areas, or rocket launch sites in a Gazan farmer's field --- talk to Hamas. Meanwhile, I hope Israel continues to find and take out these legitimate miltary targets on behalf of the protection of their citizens.
 
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  • #429

IDF says it killed top Hamas commando who led an assault on Israeli communities​

The Israel Defense Forces says it has killed a commander in Hamas’s commando forces, who led one of the murderous attacks on southern Israel communities last week.

The IDF says Ali Qadhi, a company commander in the so-called Nukhba unit, was killed in a drone strike following intelligence efforts by the Shin Bet security agency and Military Intelligence Directorate.

According to the IDF, Qadhi was arrested by Israel in 2005 over the kidnapping and murder of Israeli civilians and had been released to the Gaza Strip as part of the 2011 Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange.

www.timesofisrael.com

IDF says it killed top Hamas commando who led an assault on Israeli communities

* * *
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
BBM
 
  • #430
  • #431
46min ago

Hamas claims nine hostages killed in Israeli airstrikes over last 24 hours​

The military wing of Hamas terror group says nine hostages, including four foreigners, were killed over the past 24 hours as a result of the Israeli bombardment of the Gaza Strip.

The Qassam Brigades say the hostages were killed when Israel’s military hit areas where they were being held.

The announcement came a day after the group said 13 hostages it is holding were killed in the strikes, raising the total number of hostages killed to 22.

The claim could not be independently verified. Israel has rebuffed previous similar claims as propaganda, saying it has its own information.

[...]

Israel-Hamas war live updates: Gaza hit with more shelling as Israel defends evacuation order (nbcnews.com)

46m ago / 5:53 AM PDT

Nine hostages killed, Hamas says​

The military arm of Hamas, the Al-Qassam Brigades, said in a post on Telegram that it killed nine hostages, including four foreigners, in retaliation for the continued bombing of Gaza.

NBC News could not independently verify the claim.
 
  • #432
Telling civilians to get out of the way versus:

"[D]ocuments recovered from terrorists show extensive Hamas plans to target an elementary school and a youth center, kill 'as many people as possible' and take hostages quickly into the Gaza Strip from Kibbutz Sa’ad, according to NBC News."

www.timesofisrael.com

IDF ‘localized’ raids into Gaza said to recover bodies; maps show Hamas killing plans

Bodies of Israelis missing since Saturday massacres said found; documents from terrorists' bodies detail Hamas plans for killing civilians, targeting schools, seizing hostages
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
 
  • #433

Nine hostages, including four foreign nationals executed by Hamas​


According to an Al Jazeera report, nine prisoners, including four foreign nationals, were executed today by Hamas. Hamas claims that this is revenge for the Israeli bombings of Hamas military buildings.

Hamas' armed wing had originally said on Saturday that nine captives including four foreigners, were killed due to Israeli air strikes in Gaza over the past 24 hours.

A statement from Al Qassam Brigades on its Telegram channel said the captives were killed "because of the zionist bombardment on the areas they were staying in".

www.jpost.com

Nine hostages, including four foreign nationals executed by Hamas

According to an Al Jazeera report, nine prisoners, including four foreign nationals, were executed today by Ha
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com
 
  • #434
  • #435
NoSpoonFeeding said:
Hamas' slaughter of civilians at a music festival, beheading of babies, and burning of families and subsequent celebratory dancing is Jew hatred at its most extreme. Hamas convinces suicide bombers that status and a religious reward await them for killing Jews.

Then Hamas should be held accountable by Palestinians. Do Palestinians want to be liberated from Hamas? Is Hamas not really the elected party chosen to represent or govern Palestinians?
Hamas has no regard for innocent Palestinians or Jews.
Click to expand...
This broad statement assumes the Palestinian people have free and fair elections and are able to vote without fear of harm.

Also, only slightly more than half “voted” for Hamas. This mirrors the last two Presidential elections here in the US. If the guy I did NOT vote for had gotten us into some horrible war, does that mean we are all to blame? And deserve to die? Am I somehow responsible for acts of domestic/stochastic terrorism incited by someone I voted AGAINST?

These are human beings. They want to live their lives and love their families. Let’s blame the terrorists, not the people who live under their horrific rule.
 
  • #436
26min ago

BBC office doused in red paint in apparent protest at refusal to call Hamas terrorists​

The offices of the BBC were doused in red paint in an apparent protest against the broadcaster’s refusal to call Hamas a terror organization.

The broadcaster has come under widespread criticism for not using the word “terrorist” to describe the Hamas assault that killed more than 1,300 people in Israel, most of them civilians.

The BBC claims it avoids the word as part of its efforts at neutrality even though Hamas is a banned terrorist organization in Britain. Its members — or those found guilty of inviting support for it — can be jailed for up to 14 years under UK law.

The BBC offices are also near the starting point of a mass pro-Palestinian protest being held in London.
***************​

Just arrived at work. This is the front entrance to BBC this morning
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  • #437
Momoffourboys said:

Hamas in rare English ‘press conference’ as it tries to counter global condemnation​

The terror group claimed its gunmen were ‘keen to avoid harming civilians’ and blamed the Israeli military for the deaths of its citizens


Hamas used a rare pre-recorded English language press conference to claim it had given “clear instructions” to its fighters not to target civilians as it sought to counter waves of international condemnation.

Basim Naim, the terrorist group’s head of international relations, insisted its gunmen were “keen to avoid harming civilians” - in an apparent desperate and easily-disproved attempt at media management.

Speaking into four microphones, Naim said on Thursday night that Hamas terrorists had “targeted only Israeli military bases and compounds that were suffocating the people of Gaza for more than 17 years.”

He was accompanied by spokesman Ghazi Hamad. The pair appeared in front of a green screen, with scenes of urban warfare projected onto the backdrop.

Other Hamas officials have claimed the 260 party-goers massacred at the Supernova festival on Saturday may have been mistaken for “resting” soldiers.

More:Hamas in rare English ‘press conference’ as it tries to counter global condemnation
Click to expand...
Sometimes it’s best not to comment or attempt to make excuses.
 
  • #438
  • #439
  • #440
21min ago

Hezbollah claims mortar, missile fire at IDF posts on Lebanese border​

The Hezbollah terror group claims responsibility for an attack on Israeli military sites in the Mount Dov area on the Lebanon border.

In a statement, Hezbollah says it launched mortars and anti-tank guided missiles at the sites.

The Israel Defense Forces says it is returning fire against the source of the fire in Lebanon.

2min ago

Huge anti-Israel protest in London as police warn Hamas supporters to be arrested​

Thousands of people rally in central London for an anti-Israel protest following police warnings that anyone showing support for the Hamas terror group could face arrest.

Attendees, who gathered near BBC News’ headquarters through the morning, began a march through the British capital ahead of an afternoon rally near parliament and Prime Minister Rishi Sunak’s Downing Street office and residence.

Some display Palestinian flags and placards — bearing slogans including “freedom for Palestine”, “end the massacre” and “sanctions for Israel” — as they made their way towards the end-point for a series of planned speeches.

[...]

That follows last Saturday’s unprecedented assault by Hamas, which saw hundreds of its fighters cross the Israeli border to take hostages and kill more than 1,000 civilians on the streets, in their homes or at a rave party.

Ahead of the London protest, the city’s Metropolitan Police Service said it would deploy more than 1,000 officers.

[...]
 
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