Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000 #4

[FacelessPodcast]

Re: the sand. Yes, it is traceable. Re: break-ins around Edwards. Yes, there were both before and after the Miyazawa case. Including one unsolved home invasion murder.

 

[Eliver]

The old woman case and the Miyazawa are not connected.
Why is it so difficult to accept?
We are speculating about nothing here.

 

[Charlot123]

1. Ignoring the fact that there is not a single trace of any other person of interest either inside or out of the house, what sort of thief would approach a family house at a time when it’s obvious people will be present? Speculation is one thing, but I’m yet to find a single compelling reason whatsoever to believe this was some sort of joint enterprise.

2. What sort of thief encounters a sleeping child and, instead of leaving, immediately commits murder?

3. If the murder of this elderly woman the previous September had *anything* to do with the Miyazawa case, we would already know about it. Does the DNA at that location match our case? Do the prints? In what world would a connection between these cases (or any other in the city) not be immediately eliminated? Moreover, it has been made explicitly clear that the Miyazawa’s murderer has not committed a known crime in Japan either before or after the massacre. Or, if he did, he left zero trace behind (which is not exactly his forte given Setagaya).

4. If the killer’s goal were financial, why did he leave a greater amount behind than the amount he stole? That larger stash was in plain view of him by the computer which we know he used. Whatever the identity of the killer of the elderly lady, what did they immediately do? Withdraw that cash. As @Incoherent
says, that case isn’t widely-known at all. Yet they found a trail for the killer. As of 2024, the TMPD has put 289,000 personnel on this case—moved heaven and earth. Yet not a single bit of CCTV or images from an ATM. Could it be that the Miyazawa murderer didn’t give a flying fig about their cash?

5. As per my podcast with an expert in break-ins, none of the details in this case made sense to him for that to be the motive. Why bring a lethal weapon along? Why bring a bag which will only allow you to carry a limited amount of valuables? If the goal were money, then why did it seem so important for the killer to enter this house in particular? Money is money, why kill a whole family and leave the majority behind? If there were any sort of evidence of some sort of murderous band of thieves, where is it?

(I bought one of your books, @FacelessPodcast. I am a fast reader and an average listener, but i know that most people prefer to listen.)

About the "Faceless". The case is clearly stuck. We are all looking at it from one angle and may be missing something. And - everything about this case, except for what Tokyo MPD revealed, is speculation.

(Each fact can have different interpretations, btw. Take Takaba's murder. The police thought that the killer had hurt a vein, lost a lot of blood and should bear scars. When I first read about the case, I thought that the killer used to be attracted to Satoru in the past (right) but I also suspected that she was rapidly going downhill with drinking (wrong). But everyone expected her to have scars. Now, if articles are to be believed, she has no visible scars. I assume that she hurt a deeper artery, hence no/small scar. What is the truth? Time will tell. Just an example of how the reality might differ from the assumptions).

Back to the Miyazawa’s murders. The general assumption has been that the Setagaya murderer worked "solo". This is one version. We have been discussing it for years. Why not look for others?

Another common type of a crime is a group specializing in B@E. They usually find a type of victims, certain "patterns" (a single older person living alone is common). They usually know what to look for. They have "a spotter", who is gathering the information and is social and proper. There is the muscleman doing the job, and typically, someone selling the goods. But in the case of an old woman being killed in Setagaya in September of 2000, they just stole cash and the credit card, even easier.

Now, a bank card is useless without a password. But assuming that the woman was elderly, she could be helped to set up the password in a bank upon activating a credit card or she entered the password when using the card in a store and someone saw it. (This is why i would suspect a store, a boutique or a bank being involved).

Coming back to Miyazawa murders. Several people have asked if the murderer confused the Irie and the Miyazawa's houses. I used to think, no, but given that the Iries returned recently, could Haruko have been "spotted" when she was living alone? An older woman attends a "niche" place and doesn't give out too much information. They know that she is old and lives alone. Perhaps they decided to rob her later, and didn't notice that her family returned? Plus, the Iries didn't return together.

For the "muscleman" to confuse the houses is easy. Honestly I think it is easy for everyone with that house they lived in. The guy enters via the window expecting to meet one old woman, and hits the family of four.

His knife was not "deadly"; it broke. I think he didn't plan to use it, and took just in case.

Why didn't he take all the money? I don't think he was very logical to start with. (I suspect he suffers from some form of dissociation, JMO). He is not cold-headed, he dissociates and does some things automatically. JMO. But one thing he did: he emptied out drawers and purses. Could he be looking for a credit card pin code? If he was told where to look but hit a wrong house, it is quite predictable behavior.

Imagine this: Haruko visits some place, infrequently, and, being old, pulls out credit card to pay, then fishes out a pin code on a separate card, lying in a side pocket of her purse. Elderly people can be totally with it, conceal the code, but they move slowly. So the burglar guy is told, to look for the credit card and find the card with the pin code, it is in the same purse. But being in the wrong house, he is looking in the wrong purses.

In general, there is not much logic in this case to start with. I am not sure it went according to the plan so it looks like he was calm. If I were to suspect, he was in a sort of "brownout", but JMO.

 

[Eliver]

Back to the Miyazawa’s murders. The general assumption has been that the Setagaya murderer worked "solo". This is one version. We have been discussing it for years. Why not look for others?

It is not an "assumption".
We have irrefutable evidence that it was one person.

It is one thing to speculate using the information we have, and another one to speculate on nothing and create fantasy scenarios.

The post you have quoted from FacelessPodcast makes a very good point. Is it more likely that there is no connection/we are talking about nothing or that us, random websleuthers, have found a new cunning theory it has eluded the police for 25 years?

Something tells me the latter is not very likely.

 

[Eliver]

His knife was not "deadly"; it broke. I think he didn't plan to use it, and took just in case.

This picture was posted by user Incoherent himself on thread 3. What are we even talking about?

It was deadly. The fact it broke has nothing to do with its deadliness.

 

[Charlot123]

It is not an "assumption".
We have irrefutable evidence that it was one person.

It is one thing to speculate using the information we have, and another one to speculate on nothing and create fantasy scenarios.

The post you have quoted from FacelessPodcast makes a very good point. Is it more likely that there is no connection/we are talking about nothing or that us, random websleuthers, have found a new cunning theory it has eluded the police for 25 years?

Something tells me the latter is not very likely.

We have evidence that one person was in the house. One person invaded the house. Of this, no one doubts.

Of the rest - you said he was Faceless and remains such. So all our versions, everything posted all over the world internet, is in the realm of “fantasies”, Look at how many of them come from Japan. A person wrote a book with some Korean murderer, a total fantasy, IMHO, but, legally allowed.

So: who the invader was, we have no idea. What we know: Yasuko was complaining of a black car parking close to the house shortly before the murders. So whether the invader acted on his own or the house was “pointed out” to him, we don’t know at all.

What we can’t do is: accuse existing people with real names without a solid reason. Discuss versions? For sure. And the more time elapses, the more versions will pop up.

What really surprises me is that the version that a criminal group could be involved makes anyone concerned at all.

 

[Eliver]

So whether the invader acted on his own or the house was “pointed out” to him, we don’t know at all.

Yes, my point exactly: this is a fantasy theory because it is not supported/backed up/whathaveyou by anything publicly available and it's in contradiction with all the evidence the police has shared in 25 years.

Like Nic has said in the post, and I quote:

1. Ignoring the fact that there is not a single trace of any other person of interest either inside or out of the house, what sort of thief would approach a family house at a time when it’s obvious people will be present? Speculation is one thing, but I’m yet to find a single compelling reason whatsoever to believe this was some sort of joint enterprise.

As of 2024, the TMPD has put 289,000 personnel on this case—moved heaven and earth. Yet not a single bit of CCTV or images from an ATM. Could it be that the Miyazawa murderer didn’t give a flying fig about their cash?

We could speculate or any circumstance and be right or wrong and go on forever.

Again, why can't we just speculate on the things we acually know?

 

[Bobban]

We had a case in Sweden from 2004 where before it was solved the common theories and speculation always reminded me of the Miyazawa case.

Murders of Mohammed Ammouri and Anna-Lena Svensson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A big theory on tv and amongst the general public was that the killer had fled the country after the dubble murder since his dna and fingerprint never popped up in any system in the years following the crime. There were even talk of a foreign hitman and gang involvement.

But in 2020 the murderer was identified through genetic DNA and everyone found out that the man who did it was basically a local loser. At the time of the crime he was 21, lived with his parents, had no friends and spent his time in front of his computer.

In his confession of the crime he explains his reasoning was that he had woken up that morning with a compulsion to kill someone. So he grabbed a knife, went out, killed two people, returned home and never did anything like it ever again. There was little to no thought or planning behind his crime.

But in the eyes of the public each year the case went unsolved made the theories more intricate and the hypothetical perpetrator more genius. In the end the actual perpetrator was an intellectually disabled local guy who didnt pop up on any radar because he lived an unmemorable life of isolation and unemployment.

Just wanted to post this here as a reminder that the perpetrators criminal-intellect doesn't increase by the years unsloved.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I mean this in the nicest way because I respect all posters and ideas because that's why we are here on this forum...

We have to remember Websleuths is a site where yes, some wild speculation happens. Out of the box thinking can derail a solid main running theory or we get posters coming out of the woodwork just catching up posting their theory without reading thousands of posts in volumes of threads (I've been guilty of that at times )

Not all posters are stuck on one solid theory. I am in the Lindsay Buziak thread and the idea of who did it bounces around (even for myself) constantly even though there is one strong, solid theory.

There is another thread I'm on that has been very contentious about who is right and who is wrong that it's become a bit of a pissing contest with posters, which makes things tense and not an ideal thread to always be on.

The reason I keep coming to Websleuths is because I find it a more knowledgable discussion because many posters mostly really know their forensics, criminal psychology, law and police procedures at times.

Personally, I like hearing other's ideas and insights even if they're a little out there. We have to remember on this site there are verified ex-LE, lawyers, social workers, journalists, writers, first responders, etc.

We also have intuitives/psychics, locals from crime areas, family members, etc.

So it's a mixed bag. If a theory takes over and derails another, it's ok to bring it back for discussion. The threads jump around and sometimes there's 2 or 3 conversations going on at the same time on one thread.

I've been on Websleuths many years, lots of interesting people on here. There can always be tension or disagreements about what happened but I just scroll on.

Let's try to get along

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, my point exactly: this is a fantasy theory because it is not supported/backed up/whathaveyou by anything publicly available and it's in contradiction with all the evidence the police has shared in 25 years.

Like Nic has said in the post, and I quote:





We could speculate or any circumstance and be right or wrong and go on forever.

Again, why can't we just speculate on the things we acually know?

Well..subscribing to one theory is never tempting, because what if it is wrong? The case doesn’t seem to be moving. Maybe it is, behind the scenes, but who knows? And we know that it won’t move until the DNA “speaks”. The final list in the Takaba case was 5000 people, they wrote. How many can there be in the Miyazawa’s one?

 

[Charlot123]

I mean this in the nicest way because I respect all posters and ideas because that's why we are here on this forum...

We have to remember Websleuths is a site where yes, some wild speculation happens. Out of the box thinking can derail a solid main running theory or we get posters coming out of the woodwork just catching up posting their theory without reading thousands of posts in volumes of threads (I've been guilty of that at times )

Not all posters are stuck on one solid theory. I am in the Lindsay Buziak thread and the idea of who did it bounces around (even for myself) constantly even though there is one strong, solid theory.

There is another thread I'm on that has been very contentious about who is right and who is wrong that it's become a bit of a pissing contest with posters, which makes things tense and not an ideal thread to always be on.

The reason I keep coming to Websleuths is because I find it a more knowledgable discussion because many posters mostly really know their forensics, criminal psychology, law and police procedures at times.

Personally, I like hearing other's ideas and insights even if they're a little out there. We have to remember on this site there are verified ex-LE, lawyers, social workers, journalists, writers, first responders, etc.

We also have intuitives/psychics, locals from crime areas, family members, etc.

So it's a mixed bag. If a theory takes over and derails another, it's ok to bring it back for discussion. The threads jump around and sometimes there's 2 or 3 conversations going on at the same time on one thread.

I've been on Websleuths many years, lots of interesting people on here. There can always be tension or disagreements about what happened but I just scroll on.

Let's try to get along

True. Any big thread has many versions. If you name a thread that has one “base” theory, I’d be surprised.

 

[Charlot123]

We had a case in Sweden from 2004 where before it was solved the common theories and speculation always reminded me of the Miyazawa case.

Murders of Mohammed Ammouri and Anna-Lena Svensson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A big theory on tv and amongst the general public was that the killer had fled the country after the dubble murder since his dna and fingerprint never popped up in any system in the years following the crime. There were even talk of a foreign hitman and gang involvement.

But in 2020 the murderer was identified through genetic DNA and everyone found out that the man who did it was basically a local loser. At the time of the crime he was 21, lived with his parents, had no friends and spent his time in front of his computer.

In his confession of the crime he explains his reasoning was that he had woken up that morning with a compulsion to kill someone. So he grabbed a knife, went out, killed two people, returned home and never did anything like it ever again. There was little to no thought or planning behind his crime.

But in the eyes of the public each year the case went unsolved made the theories more intricate and the hypothetical perpetrator more genius. In the end the actual perpetrator was an intellectually disabled local guy who didnt pop up on any radar because he lived an unmemorable life of isolation and unemployment.

Just wanted to post this here as a reminder that the perpetrators criminal-intellect doesn't increase by the years unsloved.

This is a super interesting case, thank you! Again, it all comes to the DNA.

 

[Incoherent]

Re: knife. The reason it broke is because when he was stabbing Yasuko and Niina in the loft he missed multiple times and stabbed the headboard and wall behind them. In the documentary it shows the “X” marks where he was violently stabbing and that’s when it snapped in half. Only the tip came off in Mikio’s head.

 

[SteveL]

RSBM: There is no law stipulating that DNA can only be used 1:1 suspect comparison to existing offender database. The point is that there is no existing legal framework for expanded use of DNA in LE investigations. This has meant, in practice, that the 1:1 is essentially all that they focus on when the suspect is unknown.

Given the vast powers already afforded to LE in Japan along with some very public scandals, there seems to be little rush for them to be given more.

And as for the cat killings, this was indeed real. (They were actually poisonings, I believe). They arrested a local bank employee. He protested his innocence but the cats stopped turning up dead after that.

Nick, I believe it was discussed on this thread that this could all be circumvented if An Irie would independently send some of the victim's property, with the killer’s DNA, to a lab? If I’m correct, all An Irie has to do is merely send the DNA to an overseas lab for analysis.

 

[SteveL]

I don't know how common this belief is among people very familiar with this case, but from what I have seen so far, I do not believe that the sand actually came from Edwards AFB. When we're talking about bullet or blood evidence, that's one thing, but soil/sand is completely another. I'm far from familiar with anything related to sand forensics, but given the obviously quite vast amount of it out there, I would need to see an extremely detailed breakdown of how they know the sand came exactly from there, and, even more importantly, how they know it could not have come from anywhere else. It just doesn't seem possible to me; this is not something like ballistics where the process for tracing it is relatively straightforward because there's a much more limited number of possibilities and you can trace a casing or whatever to just one weapon. I still think it is certainly possible given that they were able to match it to the sand at that base, but that is far from enough to say with certainty that it is from there and could not have been from anywhere else in the world.

You obviously haven’t listened to the Faceless podcast, the most credible resource on this case. In one episode, Nic covers this exhaustively. I advise you to listen to Faceless to educate yourself on the case before flippantly dismissing a well researched topic, by the expert on the case. You’re “I don’t know” and “I don’t believe” rantings wouldn’t hold up in court, whereas Nic’s research would, as have the experts he speaks with.

 

[Little Jack]

We had a case in Sweden from 2004 where before it was solved the common theories and speculation always reminded me of the Miyazawa case.

Murders of Mohammed Ammouri and Anna-Lena Svensson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A big theory on tv and amongst the general public was that the killer had fled the country after the dubble murder since his dna and fingerprint never popped up in any system in the years following the crime. There were even talk of a foreign hitman and gang involvement.

But in 2020 the murderer was identified through genetic DNA and everyone found out that the man who did it was basically a local loser. At the time of the crime he was 21, lived with his parents, had no friends and spent his time in front of his computer.

In his confession of the crime he explains his reasoning was that he had woken up that morning with a compulsion to kill someone. So he grabbed a knife, went out, killed two people, returned home and never did anything like it ever again. There was little to no thought or planning behind his crime.

But in the eyes of the public each year the case went unsolved made the theories more intricate and the hypothetical perpetrator more genius. In the end the actual perpetrator was an intellectually disabled local guy who didnt pop up on any radar because he lived an unmemorable life of isolation and unemployment.

Just wanted to post this here as a reminder that the perpetrators criminal-intellect doesn't increase by the years unsloved.

This is compelling and reminiscent of the USA case I linked a while back where the victim was brutally stabbed and the perpetrator hung out for hours after, using the computer, eating in her kitchen etc. Turned out also to be local loser young man staying with family in the vicinity, and also totally senseless.

 

[Ladyotm]

Just spitballing some ideas here ...

Could be nothing, and I know Setagaya, Tokyo and Nagoya are a couple of hours apart, but in the Takaba murder, the 2 y.o. boy Kohei was left unharmed. In this Miyazawa case, 6 y.o. Rei's killing was different from the rest of his family in that he was not stabbed (so, please excuse me for referring to it as a 'softer' killing). Just hit me that in both cases, the young males were treated differently from the other victims.

Also, at the time of the murder of Namiko Takaba on November 13, 1999, her husband Satoru Takaba (now 69 y.o.) would have been 43 years old at the time. In the Miyazawa murders a year later in December 2000, Mikio was 44 years old so would have been the same age as Satoru.

Based on the ages of both adult males in the two families, just wondering if there's any chance that Nikio had also crossed paths with an insanely jealous Kumiko Yasufuku in the past (sports, schooling, convenience store/supermarket or other employment ??)

In both cases, a break and enter, and an unusual 'food' element in both crimes ... in the Takaba murder, a carton of Yakult noodle cup that Satoru says did not belong in the home was left behind, and we know of the food related elements in this case of the Miyazawa family.

I still have many pages of this thread ahead to read. I'm not familiar with that other case you mentioned. However the food part really stood out. The noodles didn't belong to the family. Could the perp have been on his/her way home from a store? Could it have been an unhoused person (were there any in the area, would these noodles be a type of food they ate)? Do any of their customs include visiting someone and bringing a small appetizer such as noodles to share?

 

[Eliver]

I still have many pages of this thread ahead to read. I'm not familiar with that other case you mentioned. However the food part really stood out. The noodles didn't belong to the family. Could the perp have been on his/her way home from a store? Could it have been an unhoused person (were there any in the area, would these noodles be a type of food they ate)? Do any of their customs include visiting someone and bringing a small appetizer such as noodles to share?

This case was solved and it was not a noodle cup.
It was a lactic acid drink. There is no such thing as "Yakult noodle cup" here in Japan.

Also the perpetrator did not bring noodles at anyone's home because it was not a visit: the victim was attacked at the doorstep after opening the door.

More up to date details about that one here:

Thread 'Japan - Namiko Takaba (32) murdered at home, 13 Nov 1999'

Mar 24, 2024

Murder of Nagoya housewife remains unsolved 24 years later.

I’m the verified author in the Miyazawa Family Murders thread, where I have mentioned this case in passing several times. I’m writing about Namiko's murder today, both because it deserves to have more light shed on it in the English-speaking world, but also because there are some strong parallels with the Miyazawa case. Both are legally significant as they sit at the forefront of the argument for creating a legal framework in Japan for the use of new DNA techniques in LE investigations. At the time of...

• FacelessPodcast
• Replies: 115
• Forum: Cold Cases

• 

 

[Lalalacasbah]

This case was solved and it was not a noodle cup.
It was a lactic acid drink. There is no such thing as "Yakult noodle cup" here in Japan.

Also the perpetrator did not bring noodles at anyone's home because it was not a visit: the victim was attacked at the doorstep after opening the door.

More up to date details about that one here:

Thread 'Japan - Namiko Takaba (32) murdered at home, 13 Nov 1999'

Mar 24, 2024

Murder of Nagoya housewife remains unsolved 24 years later.

I’m the verified author in the Miyazawa Family Murders thread, where I have mentioned this case in passing several times. I’m writing about Namiko's murder today, both because it deserves to have more light shed on it in the English-speaking world, but also because there are some strong parallels with the Miyazawa case. Both are legally significant as they sit at the forefront of the argument for creating a legal framework in Japan for the use of new DNA techniques in LE investigations. At the time of...

• FacelessPodcast
• Replies: 115
• Forum: Cold Cases

• 

Thanks for posting this Eliver, I didn't see or know about this thread or crime.

Just when I tell myself to stop joining more threads (I don't always have the time to keep track of all the details in every thread I'm in, so was trying to limit the volume haha)... another comes along that piques my interest!

 

[Eliver]

Thanks for posting this Eliver, I didn't see or know about this thread or crime.

Just when I tell myself to stop joining more threads (I don't always have the time to keep track of all the details in every thread I'm in, so was trying to limit the volume haha)... another comes along that piques my interest!

We are still receiving news and updates about that one since it was only solved a month ago after 26 years, but the thread is way shorter than this so it should be easier to catch up.

In any case there are only very superficial similarities between that and the Miyazawa's. They are two very different cases.

Interesting to notice is that Satoru Takaba, the victim's husband, is the president of Sora no Kai of which An Irie is also a member of.
The two even know each other.