JB/wine cellar

[UKGuy]

Can't they tell medically whether a corpse has been moved after death? I remember reading it had been determined that her body wasn't moved (at least not hours after she had died).

AndHence,

Yes they can, but its more difficult as you move towards the end of the rigor mortis phase.

So there is wriggle room for the movement of JonBenet's body, one which I favor, but rely on Fleet White's observation being accurate.

All those who think PDI whilst simultaneously communicating with JR via the RN, glances or telepathy, have to explain convincingly why JR headed straight for the wine-cellar when asked to search the house starting at the top?

All answers on a postcard to the PDI society Boulder Colorado, which has its own enterprise GIS system.

Conclusion: for those of a inductive disposition, in the next JonBenet case, Burke Ramsey fascinated with robots and self driving cars will tell, i.e. speak, the car to take JonBenet's body away from the house.

Move over Lost In Space.

Confession: Holmes never ever said Its Elementary Dear Watson that's a media invention.



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[UKGuy]

I missed the irony. Still do.

I have thoughts and hunches, but no set conclusions. It's simply a theory, and from what I recently read on reddit, it seems as if Kolar might agree.

We can disagree with opinions and theories all day long. Because, frankly, I think your theory is off, too. But I never say anything because I don't need to. I do not call you out and say, "Nope." We need to be able to discuss theories and opinions in a respectful manner.

My issue is with your comparison of me to Lou RedHerring Smit, a Ramsey apologist and defender, and a roadblock in the JBR case. Whether that was ad hominem or about my "method of thinking" (ok, that's still about me), I object.

kanzz,
Yup, I'll bet you think this song is about you. That someone calls you out on your manner of reasoning is a plus.

Why because it might just save your life one day.


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[kanzz]

Can't they tell medically whether a corpse has been moved after death? I remember reading it had been determined that her body wasn't moved (at least not hours after she had died).

The best determining factor of position/movement of a body post-mortem is lividity (aka livor mortis, aka hypostasis).

Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6–12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body.

Movement of a body in the first few hours after death can be evident by patches of lividity on different areas of the body.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences-and-law/law/crime-and-law-enforcement/lividity

 

[andreww]

andreww,
BBM: what grounds would he have for thinking that? Surely Patsy would be suspect number one?


Psychology, psychology, psychology, nobody pulls off the perfect crime without exhibiting maladaptive behavior .

All your points remind me of the Bible Code where if you look hard enough you can come up with stuff to prove whatever you have assumed, i.e. Elvis is the Messiah who will be resurrected in the year ...

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Me thinks you are giving John a hell of a lot more credit than he deserves. If all the truths he told (checking doors, reading to kids, handing over RN pad, etc) were all psychological games, why on earth would he pull a 180 on nearly every statement he made?

andreww,
BBM: what grounds would he have for thinking that? Surely Patsy would be suspect number one?

The knife with Burkes name on it? The childishly tied hand restraints? Previous behaviour? Perhaps the kids were at each other before John even went to bed? But, even if he didn't suspect Burke it might have been a smart idea to get him out of the house in case the cops slapped the cuffs on his mother.

Look, you know a lot about this case and I respect your opinions, but as far as John is concerned I think you may be wrong. There is very little hard evidence to say he was involved in the actual crime, and no evidence to say he was involved in the staging. His actions are contrary to what a guilty person would have said as well. After 11:00 he is as guilty as any of them, but before that I really don't think he had a clue.

 

[UKGuy]

Me thinks you are giving John a hell of a lot more credit than he deserves. If all the truths he told (checking doors, reading to kids, handing over RN pad, etc) were all psychological games, why on earth would he pull a 180 on nearly every statement he made?



The knife with Burkes name on it? The childishly tied hand restraints? Previous behaviour? Perhaps the kids were at each other before John even went to bed? But, even if he didn't suspect Burke it might have been a smart idea to get him out of the house in case the cops slapped the cuffs on his mother.

Look, you know a lot about this case and I respect your opinions, but as far as John is concerned I think you may be wrong. There is very little hard evidence to say he was involved in the actual crime, and no evidence to say he was involved in the staging. His actions are contrary to what a guilty person would have said as well. After 11:00 he is as guilty as any of them, but before that I really don't think he had a clue.

andreww,
well BPD say JR's fibers are on JonBenet's thighs. He never undressed her for bed the night before, and never bathed or dried JonBenet, if she bathed, for the White's Party.

Then there is the R's admitting, Yes that's BR's voice on the 911 call. This implies all three R's were colluding in postmortem staging.

You get that, before JR answers a question, he knows BR is lying in bed faking being asleep.

For general consumption: BR told some officer on the morning of the 911 call, that he should go and look for JonBenet, she is in the house somewhere.

I think he repeated this either at interview or to another officer. So BR knows JonBenet was whacked on the head, knows she is still in the house, when everyone else thinks she has been abducted, his knife is found in the basement, along with his touch-dna on the nightgown, his footprint on the floor, JonBenet is found wearing BR's long johns, did one of the parents frame him?

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[BoldBear]

This is the first time I've come across the idea that one of the parents tried to frame Burke. Wow. The thing about Burke's sweat pants is that JB was known to wear Burke's hand-me-downs. I don't have a problem with her wearing his sweat pants. I don't have a problem that they may have been big on her. They're not Levis. They're sweat pants. And they were used for sleeping and I've warn oversized sweat pants myself when I was a kid. This detail doesn't keep me up at night.

I won't close my mind to the idea that John was involved before 10. The claim that John didn't have anything to do with it is simply based on how you paint the story.

 

[UKGuy]

This is the first time I've come across the idea that one of the parents tried to frame Burke. Wow. The thing about Burke's sweat pants is that JB was known to wear Burke's hand-me-downs. I don't have a problem with her wearing his sweat pants. I don't have a problem that they may have been big on her. They're not Levis. They're sweat pants. And they were used for sleeping and I've warn oversized sweat pants myself when I was a kid. This detail doesn't keep me up at night.

I won't close my mind to the idea that John was involved before 10. The claim that John didn't have anything to do with it is simply based on how you paint the story.

BoldBear,

BBM: Neat aint it. I've been running with it for weeks now.

Here's the rationale: If the case is JDI or PDI, and most of these theories assume implicit or explicit help from the other parent, so how come some of the forensic evidence links directly to BR?

When Patsy says she dressed JonBenet in those long johns, she made that choice, she must have known it would be analyzed, minimally putting BR in the frame?

Similarly with the size-12's, which parent is going to dress their child in over sized underwear to represent normal bedtime dress?

Then there is knife, did Patsy find it and use it downstairs in the basement, then leave it behind?

Then there is the flashlight, has JR told BR to take the heat for the flashlight, by saying he left it in BR's bedroom, this is not explicit but when BR says he snuck back downstairs, I'm guessing he never switched all the lights on?

Then there is the missing pink pajama bottoms that caused Patsy to redress JonBenet in BR's long johns, why were they missing?

Why was she not wearing that nice pink barbie nightgown instead of BR's long johns?

An alternative theory mirrors the PDI except its JDI with PR assisting JR.

BTW that's why We are not talking to you arises, i.e. we are busy staging you into a crime-scene, so go to your bedroom?

I won't close my mind to the idea that John was involved before 10. The claim that John didn't have anything to do with it is simply based on how you paint the story.

JR was present at the 911 call, we hear his voice on the tape, he knows BR is awake, they admit this after lying about it. So nobody can claim JR was ignorant and was just ambling about the house that morning completely oblivious to prior events.

So we know both parents are in on the setup, so if its really PDI with JR helping out here and there, then I reckon they framed it to implicate BR!

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[MURDERER_SERVANT]

BoldBear,

BBM: Neat aint it. I've been running with it for weeks now.

Here's the rationale: If the case is JDI or PDI, and most of these theories assume implicit or explicit help from the other parent, so how come some of the forensic evidence links directly to BR?

When Patsy says she dressed JonBenet in those long johns, she made that choice, she must have known it would be analyzed, minimally putting BR in the frame?

Similarly with the size-12's, which parent is going to dress their child in over sized underwear to represent normal bedtime dress?

Then there is knife, did Patsy find it and use it downstairs in the basement, then leave it behind?

Then there is the flashlight, has JR told BR to take the heat for the flashlight, by saying he left it in BR's bedroom, this is not explicit but when BR says he snuck back downstairs, I'm guessing he never switched all the lights on?

Then there is the missing pink pajama bottoms that caused Patsy to redress JonBenet in BR's long johns, why were they missing?

Why was she not wearing that nice pink barbie nightgown instead of BR's long johns?

An alternative theory mirrors the PDI except its JDI with PR assisting JR.

BTW that's why We are not talking to you arises, i.e. we are busy staging you into a crime-scene, so go to your bedroom?



JR was present at the 911 call, we hear his voice on the tape, he knows BR is awake, they admit this after lying about it. So nobody can claim JR was ignorant and was just ambling about the house that morning completely oblivious to prior events.

So we know both parents are in on the setup, so if its really PDI with JR helping out here and there, then I reckon they framed it to implicate BR!

.

I won't dismiss that theory cause B simply would quit jail because of his age.
Putting the blame on the children by their parents is not unheard of.

The evidence and interrogations were probably concocted to point the finger at so many people incuding the housekeeper, friends ,Patsy with the ransom note and her items used so why not Burke? to confuse and make it hard to blame one particular person...it's telling only J was tried to be excluded ...weird..

 

[AndHence]

andreww,
well BPD say JR's fibers are on JonBenet's thighs. He never undressed her for bed the night before, and never bathed or dried JonBenet, if she bathed, for the White's Party.

Then there is the R's admitting, Yes that's BR's voice on the 911 call. This implies all three R's were colluding in postmortem staging.

You get that, before JR answers a question, he knows BR is lying in bed faking being asleep.

For general consumption: BR told some officer on the morning of the 911 call, that he should go and look for JonBenet, she is in the house somewhere.

I think he repeated this either at interview or to another officer. So BR knows JonBenet was whacked on the head, knows she is still in the house, when everyone else thinks she has been abducted, his knife is found in the basement, along with his touch-dna on the nightgown, his footprint on the floor, JonBenet is found wearing BR's long johns, did one of the parents frame him?

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The Ramseys have never admitted that Burke is on the 911 tape; they simply amended their story to say that they learned he was awake that morning ahead of his GJ testimony. Burke himself told the GJ that it sounds like his voice on the 911 tape but he never expressly said he was present for that call. As with all the statements this family has made, there is enough wiggle room to have plausible deniability.

 

[andreww]

BoldBear,

BBM: Neat aint it. I've been running with it for weeks now.

Here's the rationale: If the case is JDI or PDI, and most of these theories assume implicit or explicit help from the other parent, so how come some of the forensic evidence links directly to BR?

When Patsy says she dressed JonBenet in those long johns, she made that choice, she must have known it would be analyzed, minimally putting BR in the frame?

Similarly with the size-12's, which parent is going to dress their child in over sized underwear to represent normal bedtime dress?

Then there is knife, did Patsy find it and use it downstairs in the basement, then leave it behind?

Then there is the flashlight, has JR told BR to take the heat for the flashlight, by saying he left it in BR's bedroom, this is not explicit but when BR says he snuck back downstairs, I'm guessing he never switched all the lights on?

Then there is the missing pink pajama bottoms that caused Patsy to redress JonBenet in BR's long johns, why were they missing?

Why was she not wearing that nice pink barbie nightgown instead of BR's long johns?

An alternative theory mirrors the PDI except its JDI with PR assisting JR.

BTW that's why We are not talking to you arises, i.e. we are busy staging you into a crime-scene, so go to your bedroom?



JR was present at the 911 call, we hear his voice on the tape, he knows BR is awake, they admit this after lying about it. So nobody can claim JR was ignorant and was just ambling about the house that morning completely oblivious to prior events.

So we know both parents are in on the setup, so if its really PDI with JR helping out here and there, then I reckon they framed it to implicate BR!

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Don't think any Ramsey has ever admitted that Burke's voice is on the 911 tape. They don't even admit he is there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AlGx]

Did they ever question the R's about Burke's voice on the 911 call?

 

[UKGuy]

The Ramseys have never admitted that Burke is on the 911 tape; they simply amended their story to say that they learned he was awake that morning ahead of his GJ testimony. Burke himself told the GJ that it sounds like his voice on the 911 tape but he never expressly said he was present for that call. As with all the statements this family has made, there is enough wiggle room to have plausible deniability.

AndHence,
Everyone knows all that. The R's went from BR being sound asleep to wide awake!

That sounds like JR's voice replying to BR on the 911 call. It might not be, but was there anyone else in the house at that point in time?

Like BR says, it sounds like me, and he is not flat out denying it.

For the purpose of theory, I'm assuming that is BR's voice on the 911 tape, what is important here is JR is heard talking to who we think is BR.

It's patently not hard fact since we were not present, but it follows if you you think that the R's going from asleep to awake and BR saying sounds like me is good enough to conclude that JR knew BR present and awake?

This is enough to demonstrate that all three R's colluded in postmortem staging, e.g. BR fakes being asleep!

Also we know its the parents who are driving the version of events agenda, why because the minute they hear the 911 call and its implications, BR's story changes from asleep to awake.

So he's awake, awake for what?

This aspect of the R's version of events, IMO, shows why PDI with JR ignorant, or JDI with PR ignorant is inconsistent.

They can plausibly deny. I can plausibly construct a scenario in which all three R's colluded in postmortem staging.

And it's the R's amended version of events which allow it.

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[UKGuy]

Don't think any Ramsey has ever admitted that Burke's voice is on the 911 tape. They don't even admit he is there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

andreww,
Sure, but does any of them flat out deny that is either JR or BR's voice on the tape?

They don't even admit he is there.

You ever heard them deny he was present?

The R's best defense is to say what you hear, is a ghost recording. OK, so why does BR need to go from asleep to awake?

The parents say BR was awake, BR says that sounds like me, hence JR is aware at that point in time that BR is wide awake, e.g. he is in on the postmortem staging.

That's enough, more than enough, to suggest BDI might be the intended crime-scene staging, and that in reality the case is PDI with JR assisting?

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[BoldBear]

Did they ever question the R's about Burke's voice on the 911 call?

The Ramseys questioned if their voices were ever even heard in the white noise. Check out their infamous interview on YouTube where they were face to face with Steve Thomas. They had released their book DOI to supposedly tell their side of the story. Then Steve Thomas releases his book basically accusing Patsy of going into a 'bed wetting' rage. The whole interview makes me uncomfortable. It's best compared to an MMA fight. The Ramseys are looking for sympathy 'our daughter was murdered and it's the worst thing in the world'. Steve Thomas directly accuses them.

Now before you think about how terrible it is (because it is), remember that the Ramseys have a full legal team. They're trying to control their public image which was the purpose of DOI and a book comes out countering the image they're trying to paint.

Years later, John releases a 2nd book to play on faith and sympathy and shortly after another 'case insider', James Kolar, releases his book basically nullifying any sympathy John may have received from his 2nd book.

We only need the Ramseys to release 1 more sympathy book and the book that follows it will solve the case.

 

[andreww]

AndHence,
Everyone knows all that. The R's went from BR being sound asleep to wide awake!

That sounds like JR's voice replying to BR on the 911 call. It might not be, but was there anyone else in the house at that point in time?

Like BR says, it sounds like me, and he is not flat out denying it.

For the purpose of theory, I'm assuming that is BR's voice on the 911 tape, what is important here is JR is heard talking to who we think is BR.

It's patently not hard fact since we were not present, but it follows if you you think that the R's going from asleep to awake and BR saying sounds like me is good enough to conclude that JR knew BR present and awake?

This is enough to demonstrate that all three R's colluded in postmortem staging, e.g. BR fakes being asleep!

Also we know its the parents who are driving the version of events agenda, why because the minute they hear the 911 call and its implications, BR's story changes from asleep to awake.

So he's awake, awake for what?

This aspect of the R's version of events, IMO, shows why PDI with JR ignorant, or JDI with PR ignorant is inconsistent.

They can plausibly deny. I can plausibly construct a scenario in which all three R's colluded in postmortem staging.

And it's the R's amended version of events which allow it.

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BBM - do you have a source for Burke saying that?

Also, when word of the enhanced recording came out the Ramsey's said Burke had informed them that he was feigning sleep in his bed, so this still does not account for the other voices on the tape. And you are correct that there was nobody else in the house, but there were certainly other people nearby on the 911 operators end of the line.

 

[andreww]

Don't think any Ramsey has ever admitted that Burke's voice is on the 911 tape. They don't even admit he is there.


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I don't think the Ramsey's were ever formally interviewed after the enhanced call came to light. Until recently most of us have never even heard the enhanced call, so in all likelihood they wouldn't have commented on something they may not have heard.

 

[andreww]

The Ramseys have never admitted that Burke is on the 911 tape; they simply amended their story to say that they learned he was awake that morning ahead of his GJ testimony. Burke himself told the GJ that it sounds like his voice on the 911 tape but he never expressly said he was present for that call. As with all the statements this family has made, there is enough wiggle room to have plausible deniability.

Do you have a source for that? I thought al GJ testimony was sealed?

 

[UKGuy]

BBM - do you have a source for Burke saying that?

Also, when word of the enhanced recording came out the Ramsey's said Burke had informed them that he was feigning sleep in his bed, so this still does not account for the other voices on the tape. And you are correct that there was nobody else in the house, but there were certainly other people nearby on the 911 operators end of the line.

andreww,

do you have a source for Burke saying that?

From memory its in one of the Dr Phil episodes. I think Dr Phil says to BR people say they can hear you on the 911 tape, and they listen to it.

Burke had informed them that he was feigning sleep in his bed

Sure, what else do you expect? Like JR reading to JonBenet, the parents thought, BR will just be asleep.

Do you see the pattern: JonBenet put to bed asleep, BR asleep during the 911 call, e.g. same solution to both problems.

so this still does not account for the other voices on the tape.

No extra voices on the tape and BR is asleep, voices appear and BR says he was awake.

Who told BR to fake being asleep, being awake does not explain away his alleged voice on the tape?

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[andreww]

andreww,


From memory its in one of the Dr Phil episodes. I think Dr Phil says to BR people say they can hear you on the 911 tape, and they listen to it.

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Its been a while but I don't recall that tape being played on DP. I know for sure it was played on the CBS special.

No extra voices on the tape and BR is asleep, voices appear and BR says he was awake.

Who told BR to fake being asleep, being awake does not explain away his alleged voice on the tape?

You have a habit of responding in broken sentences that really don't make any sense to me. But, the revelation that Burke was awake in his bed does nothing to explain why his voice was on the 911 tape, so why would the Ramsey's change their story to that? Now if Burke had said that he ventured out of his room and may have said something, that would explain things. In their panic the Rs just forgot about it. But you are trying to say that the Ramsey's, upon hearing about the enhanced tape, changed their story to explain its existence. Their story did change slightly, but it still does not explain what happened. So did they change their story to suit the circumstances? It doesn't appear so.

Sure, what else do you expect? Like JR reading to JonBenet, the parents thought, BR will just be asleep.

Do you see the pattern: JonBenet put to bed asleep, BR asleep during the 911 call, e.g. same solution to both problems.

Not really seeing the pattern.

 

[UKGuy]

Its been a while but I don't recall that tape being played on DP. I know for sure it was played on the CBS special.



You have a habit of responding in broken sentences that really don't make any sense to me. But, the revelation that Burke was awake in his bed does nothing to explain why his voice was on the 911 tape, so why would the Ramsey's change their story to that? Now if Burke had said that he ventured out of his room and may have said something, that would explain things. In their panic the Rs just forgot about it. But you are trying to say that the Ramsey's, upon hearing about the enhanced tape, changed their story to explain its existence. Their story did change slightly, but it still does not explain what happened. So did they change their story to suit the circumstances? It doesn't appear so.



Not really seeing the pattern.

andreww,
BBM: What did you say might be their best strategy was on another thread?

Beckner in his AMA says he heard the voices on the enhanced tape, as does Steve Thomas in his book. Other people, long ago, say they heard it on the Geraldo show, since which the enhanced tape has vanished? BPD will have a copy, but might not release it due to it identifying BR?

Maybe its an illusion, wish fulfillment, audio priming, etc. If that is BR's voice on the tape, then, JR is fully involved.

The parents went from BR asleep to BR awake, probably because BR when interviewed said he faked being asleep.

Burke said he remembered waking up and hearing a loud conversation from down the hall or on the front stairs. Maybe his mother had come into his room, but he was sure he stayed in his bed and pretended to sleep. He was concerned while he pretended, he said. Burke told Schuler he was awake when his mother made the phone call. His parents might have thought he was asleep but he wasn't he said. When he was asked if he spoke to his parents that morning before being awaken at seven to be taken to the Whites' house, he said no. He said he had stayed in his room the whole time.

So the parents did change their position to suit the circumstances. What many are saying is that the parents told BR to fake being asleep?

DR PHIL: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?

BURKE: Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kinda in bed, and wanting to get this thing out.

DR PHIL: Did you use the flashlight, so you wouldn't be seen?

BURKE: I don't remember. I just remember being downstairs, I remember this toy.

SOURCE: Dr Phil Episode 9/13 - Burke Ramsey Interview (Part 2) - approx 35:00 mark

You have to wonder why JR is injecting himself into BR's time line? Who will take responsibility for the torch arriving back downstairs, wiped clean?


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