JBR, PR and UMI

[MurriFlower]

Mastermind to Igor: You did WHAT??

Yep, that sounds like it precisely!!

 

[BBB167893]

Objection, irrelephant.

How appropriate. This is becoming a circus.

This is not where we started or what we were talking about. You spun the topic, SD.

Sorry, HOTYH; I didn't mean to. I was just trying to be complete.

OK RN played on popular fear of kidnapping for ransom.

Thank you.

Islam doesn't hold the patents on foreign factions or beheadings.

So you've convinced me. But it passes the "reasonable man" test. Here's what I mean: if you were to ask ten people at random what came to mind if you said "foreign faction threatens beheading," at least eight of them would immediately think "Islam."

There is no "islamic" terrorism apparent in the ransom note. Not a single 'Allah' or 'God Willing'. Do you think PR was protecting islam by omitting these tell-alls?

No, I don't think she was "protecting Islam." I think she went as far as she knew.

Was there any other popular fear in the ransom note that isn't a claim or merely a hunch? You've got kidnapping for ransom right now but thats it.

Then let's focus on that for now.

Wildcard. This claim can be applied to any set of phenomenon, requires no proof or explanation, and absolves the need to understand anything or have anything be part of a rational set of events. Its too easy.

Well, HOTYH, that's where you're wrong, because it DOES require understanding to make that claim in the first place. I'm not saying anything that others have not said.

Are you saying that whoever wrote the ransom note, intruder or PR, presented a paradox on purpose?

That's a loaded question, HOTYH. I'd have to say "no" in either regard.

 

[BBB167893]

It's as if it's two different crimes.

Precisely! And that's the key. I think Gregg McCrary said it best: real crime scenes are not inconsistent. And he'd know.

Don't you think it might have been two different people?

It occurred to me. But I chucked it into the wastepaper basket seven seconds later. Too many problems with it.

 

[WHITEFANG]

You might be sorry you said that! Because the parents who have experienced it, from what I can tell, want nothing to do with them!

One of the most vocal is Marc Klaas, whose daughter, we all remember, was kidnapped and murdered. Here's what he had to say at a White House conference on murdered children (which the Rs no-showed):

"I regret all the efforts the Ramsey, along with their attorneys, have made to try to look as if they're in the same situation as all the other families who have lost children."

And that's just for openers! He's been very vocal in his feelings toward them. There's an archived chat here on Websleuths with him you might want to check out. if my information is accurate, the Van Dams and Erin Runnion were at that conference, and they didn't disagree with him.

It might also help if the Ramseys' lawyer didn't threaten the man on national TV!

I meant I'd like to find out how they felt after the death of a child. Could they apply a garrote to the neck of their murdered child, even if it meant a likely and lengthy prison sentence if they didn't?

 

[WHITEFANG]

Your humor eludes me.[/QUOTE]

For those who have had a child murdered in their homes while they slept, please tell us about your experience. F

I didn't ask for their opinions of the Ramseys. F

 

[WHITEFANG]

"No one on this board is assasinating Patsy's character. We believe that a Ramsey family member accidentally harmed this child. If we were assasinating her character it would be quite the opposite of what we say"

If I post that you have a mental illness, undiagnosed or diagnosed, would you accept that as a compliment? an insult? as nothing at all, just sort of neutral?


I asked questions of joeskidbeck based on this post,

Originally Posted by joeskidbeck View Post
I think if we could have seen the video made on Christmas morning we would have seen a huge sign of PR's undiagnosed mental condition. I didn't say illness because she did not have to be mentally ill to have snapped under all of the pressure. That can happen to anyone. You have to believe that it was filmed and the camera did not have a dead battery as they claimed. This is not a family that would take chances on their kid's Christmas reactions not being on film. I believe PR lost control when JB opened the My Twin doll and did not show the appreciation her mother expected. Too bad the footage is gone forever. I know someone is going to want to know where this info is located, so I'm off to ACR to find the link. Back shortly...

Here they be...
When she lost control, why didn't she kill her then, or at least kill someone?
A family like that wouldn't take chances on not having batteries? They were perfect?
That video would have shown a huge sign of her UMI? Sorry, for you it is not illness it is a "mental condition" What was her UMC? For all others who call her condition "illness" what was her UMI?
She was never formally diagnosed with mental illness, but she was mentally ill? What diagnosis do you give her?
Besides Christmas morning, when did she behave like she was mentally ill or mentally conditioned? If one is Mentally Conditioned, what do they do? Kill, snap, hit with baseball bats? Run over squirrels, dogs, cats?
Not showing appreciation for that doll triggered her loss of control?

Why didn't she kill Burke, too? Any ideas? What about her neighbors? Did she attempt to kill some, any, most of them? Since her manifestation of mental illness was apparent to many others, I assume she had had it for a while. How many others did she murder, assault, smash, strangle, whack over the head, shoot, stab or smother? Quite a few? She had a police record a mile long?

Since she perpetrated this crime, was she diagnosed by a professional, placed on meds, suffer any relapses? Any more attempted murders, batteries, use of deadly weapons with the intent to harm, any thing like these kinds of things?

In response to these questions, I got this,

"

Whitefang, I respectfully suggest that you read some of the published materials about Borderline Personality Disorder to start with. You will probably find it very enlightening, and then you may have a much better understanding of many of your questions you have asked.

It is clear from your questions that you do not have knowledge or experience with some of the possible mental illnesses and personality disorders that have been mentioned as possibilities in Patsy's case.

Also, if you better educate yourself on these, you may be in a much better position to credibly advocate that she did NOT have any signs of these; who knows?

Either way, you will be doing yourself a great service.

Warm regards and best wises to you in your journey.

"

Does anyone have any suggestions about what I should read to become better educated, based on this post?

Can anyone tell me what I don't understand about the questions I posed?

If someone asks you to believe "evidence" that proves something, saying, "If I show it to you, will you promise to believe it, too?" What would you say?

 

[WHITEFANG]

So you must mean the possibility of drugs and/or stress playing a part and obviously anyone putting PR at the scene would think that it does have something to do with it and anyone thinking she had no part in it would not, so your comment is only relevant to those who share your theories.
Because any fibers found on a dead body have to do with the case until they are proven NOT to.

Like the DNA

 

[WHITEFANG]

What would be wrong with that?

 

[WHITEFANG]

And you say WE'RE disgusting?!

Sure do. Not you, though. It is completely different for you Supe and that is cool. I will keep reminding you if that would be helpful.

Ever hear this line from a famous musical performed on Broadway.

"Let the world turn without you tonight."

I do not understand why putting their own moms' names where they put Pat's is horrible at all. People keep insisting they are not condemning her.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Sure do. Not you, though. It is completely different for you Supe and that is cool. I will keep reminding you if that would be helpful.

Ever hear this line from a famous musical performed on Broadway.

"Let the world turn without you tonight."

I do not understand why putting their own moms' names where they put Pat's is horrible at all. People keep insisting they are not condemning her.

Fang, I don't have a problem with putting my OWN name where we put Patsy's. I know that it is possible to lose control of oneself if you are under enough pressure. You don't have to accept that as fact and I am not stating as fact that it happened to Patsy. You do not have to believe anything that I say on here, as a matter of fact, you don't have to read anything that I say on here. My opinions are just that and I do not expect you or anyone else to take them as gospel. BUT, I have the right to express my opinion just as you do. I am not trying to convince you to come over to my side of the fence. I dont care what you believe or who else believes it with you. It is your right to believe what you will. Please stop degrading me for lack of evidence when I am stating opinion. My opinion does not require me to back it up with evidence, that is why it is an opinion. It would be different if I were the person who decided who would go to trial for this crime, then my opinion would matter.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Fang, I don't have a problem with putting my OWN name where we put Patsy's. I know that it is possible to lose control of oneself if you are under enough pressure.

(Not me. I never get aroused with the baser human emotions! You mean to tell me that you really believe that I don't believe that? Come on. That is insulting. Think about it.)

You don't have to accept that as fact and I am not stating as fact that it happened to Patsy.

(Please. That's patronizing. Shall I be sarcastic and suggest you are right, and that I have never seen anyone blow a fuse from stress?)


You do not have to believe anything that I say on here, as a matter of fact, you don't have to read anything that I say on here. My opinions are just that and I do not expect you or anyone else to take them as gospel.


(Again, this is condescending. As in, "Oh, gee, I thought I did have to read, accept and take as gospel?")



BUT, I have the right to express my opinion just as you do.

(again, shall I offer a silly retort, "You do? Well, shiver me timbers!)"



I am not trying to convince you to come over to my side of the fence.

Ever heard of Pinocchio? If you are not trying to convince me or someone, you don't know what you're missing.

I dont care what you believe or who else believes it with you. It is your right to believe what you will. Please stop degrading me for lack of evidence when I am stating opinion. My opinion does not require me to back it up with evidence, that is why it is an opinion. It would be different if I were the person who decided who would go to trial for this crime, then my opinion would matter.

I don't know what you mean in two ways, at least.

1. When/how was I degrading you?

2. If my opinion on an issue challenges/criticizes your opinion on an issue, why would my opinion be forbidden or less worthy of expression than yours? Didn't you just tell me to shut-up? Don't you hope from expressing your view that I will stop expressing mine? Isn't that unfair?

3. I don't understand this either. When someone degrades me/my opinion, why haven't you addressed it with that person?

4. Did I tell you that it was obvious you were not educated as it pertains to a question you asked someone else about this crime? Someone said that to me, but you didn't mention it. Was that acceptable?

I tried to have her clarify what I needed to do to improve/modify my position/education several times and she refused. Was that okay with you? No one challenged how inappropriate her insults were, including you. She went on to admit she loved to be a jerk and to harass others intentionally. That she loved to annoy them and to trick them, virtually, into exposing their backsides with their pants pulled down. Would you mind offering your opinion why no one, including you, took her to task?

This individual even described an event in her life that helped to confirm her position that brain swelling did not necessarily occur with severe head trauma. This was done in the context of trying to understand/solve a brutal murder of a small child. I challenged her to support her story with evidence. Yet, once again, she did nothing. Do you/do we want posters to deceive, willfully, in our pursuit of truth? If she is telling the truth, fine. If not, she shouldn't post here. My strongly held opinion.

Why have you failed to demand that she lay her cards on the table? If she has proof, I'd love to see it. Since she was directly involved as a survivor of traumatic brain injury (Where a nurse on the scene of the accident concluded she was dead, and ordered an ambulance for a DOA.) wouldn't it be appropriate and easy to post a medical report, newspaper clipping, something? I believe so.

Obviously, I expressed my doubts about her credibility, something she did with me, beforehand. We don't bet on this forum and I don't bet anyway. But, if I did, I would wager $500 on this one.

 

[WHITEFANG]

In your theory, JBK, how do you feel Patsy's jacket fibers got entwined in the knot of the cord and on the inside of the tape. To me, her fibers in those 2 places put her there when the garrote and tape were applied. If JR did this alone, how could Patsy's fibers in those places have transferred from JR's clothing and not any from JR's clothing? His shirt fibers were found inside the panty crotch, we know, but I haven't seen them noted as having been found anywhere else.
As odious as it is, I feel PR had to be there at the time.

Does anyone know how much force is required to move fibers, the size found in/on Joni, several inches, feet, yards?

 

[DeeDee249]

I do not understand why putting their own moms' names where they put Pat's is horrible at all. People keep insisting they are not condemning her.

Maybe because our moms have not been under an "umbrella of suspicion" for murdering anyone. Believing that PR may have been involved in the death, or coverup of the death, of her daughter is not the same as condemning her. While many do condemn her, I would do so more for the coverup than for the act itself, if it was the result of an uncontrolled outburst of rage.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Maybe because our moms have not been under an "umbrella of suspicion" for murdering anyone. Believing that PR may have been involved in the death, or coverup of the death, of her daughter is not the same as condemning her. While many do condemn her, I would do so more for the coverup than for the act itself, if it was the result of an uncontrolled outburst of rage.

She was under an umbrella of suspicion. Now she isn't, but the disparaging comments saturate comments about her. Isn't it the same nitwits who placed her under that umbrella who made "Our Gang" look like the FBI? True. Believing she may have been involved is different than condemning her. That's what I try to keep shouting from the mountain tops. The comments I read leave no doubt what the majority of people are convinced happened, Patsy did it. It is not strictly "well maybe this or how about that?" The posts have taken on a life of their own. That's why I keep trying to jar the attention of folks.

THAT"S THE REASON I"M AN OBNOXIOUS !

We condemn her, over and over and over and we don't know what happened. Isn't there enough reasonable doubt to treat her with some respect? She's gone. Her little girl is gone. It broke her heart. Losing a child is one of if not the most horrible things that can happen to a parent.

Just say it was you or your mom this happened to and you were innocent. Just for a moment pause. What if this was you and you knew you didn't do this horrible thing. And no one would listen to you. And your words came out wrong sometimes, as you were quoted around THE WORLD and your baby was dead, murdered, strangled in your home, while you slept, PLEASE. JUST THINK. That is all I ajm asking. I am sorry for hurting you all. I don't like being a jerk. My mom didn't want m,e. She didn't like me. She said I was a god damned son of a ***** kid. She pounded on the stove top, drunk, yelling, "I never wanted God Damned kids anyway, Jesus Mary and Joseph!" And I wished I'd had a mom who could give you a hug. She never touched me. She wasn't permitted to. She never read a bedtime story. But she drank and swore and told me how no good I was alot.
Andsd I can't picture Patsy acting like that. And if she got too mad, I can't see her harming a hair on her head, intentionally. I think sdhe probably wouled crty if she hurt her.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't believe either parent ever hurt their kids. Even LHP, who was there several times a week, said she never saw Patsy or JR hit their kids.

If you suffered a difficult childhood, I feel terrible for you. Alcohol is devastating to families. Children should always feel they are loved and wanted. (my mother used to say "Jesus, Mary & Joseph" when she was upset with me, too). She also said "Mother of GOD" with an exasperated sigh. I said I was bratty. She was blind her whole life, so I cut her some slack.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

She was under an umbrella of suspicion. Now she isn't, but the disparaging comments saturate comments about her. Isn't it the same nitwits who placed her under that umbrella who made "Our Gang" look like the FBI? True. Believing she may have been involved is different than condemning her. That's what I try to keep shouting from the mountain tops. The comments I read leave no doubt what the majority of people are convinced happened, Patsy did it. It is not strictly "well maybe this or how about that?" The posts have taken on a life of their own. That's why I keep trying to jar the attention of folks.

THAT"S THE REASON I"M AN OBNOXIOUS !

We condemn her, over and over and over and we don't know what happened. Isn't there enough reasonable doubt to treat her with some respect? She's gone. Her little girl is gone. It broke her heart. Losing a child is one of if not the most horrible things that can happen to a parent.

Just say it was you or your mom this happened to and you were innocent. Just for a moment pause. What if this was you and you knew you didn't do this horrible thing. And no one would listen to you. And your words came out wrong sometimes, as you were quoted around THE WORLD and your baby was dead, murdered, strangled in your home, while you slept, PLEASE. JUST THINK. That is all I ajm asking. I am sorry for hurting you all. I don't like being a jerk.My mom didn't want m,e. She didn't like me. She said I was a god damned son of a ***** kid. She pounded on the stove top, drunk, yelling, "I never wanted God Damned kids anyway, Jesus Mary and Joseph!" And I wished I'd had a mom who could give you a hug. She never touched me. She wasn't permitted to. She never read a bedtime story. But she drank and swore and told me how no good I was alot.
Andsd I can't picture Patsy acting like that. And if she got too mad, I can't see her harming a hair on her head, intentionally. I think sdhe probably wouled crty if she hurt her.

Your instincts are good, Chief WhiteFang.

 

[BBB167893]

I meant I'd like to find out how they felt after the death of a child. Could they apply a garrote to the neck of their murdered child, even if it meant a likely and lengthy prison sentence if they didn't?

I guess you would have to ask them.

 

[BBB167893]

Sure do. Not you, though. It is completely different for you Supe and that is cool. I will keep reminding you if that would be helpful.

Thanks, Fang. You should check out my epilogue sometime.

Ever hear this line from a famous musical performed on Broadway.

"Let the world turn without you tonight."

Can't say as I have.

I do not understand why putting their own moms' names where they put Pat's is horrible at all. People keep insisting they are not condemning her.

Well, I can assure you that it was not MY intent to do so when I started this thread. I also knew I'd probably get hammered over it, but nothing like the cluster-schtupp it's turned into!

 

[BBB167893]

She was under an umbrella of suspicion. Now she isn't, but the disparaging comments saturate comments about her. Isn't it the same nitwits who placed her under that umbrella who made "Our Gang" look like the FBI? True. Believing she may have been involved is different than condemning her. That's what I try to keep shouting from the mountain tops. The comments I read leave no doubt what the majority of people are convinced happened, Patsy did it. It is not strictly "well maybe this or how about that?" The posts have taken on a life of their own. That's why I keep trying to jar the attention of folks.

THAT"S THE REASON I"M AN OBNOXIOUS !

We condemn her, over and over and over and we don't know what happened. Isn't there enough reasonable doubt to treat her with some respect? She's gone. Her little girl is gone. It broke her heart. Losing a child is one of if not the most horrible things that can happen to a parent.

Just say it was you or your mom this happened to and you were innocent. Just for a moment pause. What if this was you and you knew you didn't do this horrible thing. And no one would listen to you. And your words came out wrong sometimes, as you were quoted around THE WORLD and your baby was dead, murdered, strangled in your home, while you slept, PLEASE. JUST THINK. That is all I am asking. I am sorry for hurting you all. I don't like being a jerk. My mom didn't want me. She didn't like me. She said I was a god damned son of a ***** kid. She pounded on the stove top, drunk, yelling, "I never wanted God Damned kids anyway, Jesus Mary and Joseph!" And I wished I'd had a mom who could give you a hug. She never touched me. She wasn't permitted to. She never read a bedtime story. But she drank and swore and told me how no good I was alot. And I can't picture Patsy acting like that. And if she got too mad, I can't see her harming a hair on her head, intentionally. I think she probably wouled cry if she hurt her.

Gods, Fang. I haven't got the words to express what I'm feeling.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Does anyone know how much force is required to move fibers, the size found in/on Joni, several inches, feet, yards?

.00001N?

Again, fibers are not authoritatively sourced. Its not like BPD reports 'we have X fibers from Y jacket on Z cord that by their nature could only be deposited by primary transfer.'