JBR, PR and UMI

[BBB167893]

Thank you, let me give it a read and see how I can help...

Okay. (I just hope I'm not re-opening some old wounds here!)

 

[Agatha_C]

Dave,

Let me start by saying both you and your mother are smart cookies. Like you, I feel that PR is more mentally ill then (evil) Psycho.

I hope your ready for this, cause if you haven't figured it out yet, I can be long winded. I'm going to give you a bunch of information, and if you have questions or need me to elaborate on something let me know......

Let's start with Nedra and the tail of One Flew Over the Coo Coo's Nest.....

Verbal abuse is perhaps the most common form of abuse that exists. Lyrics in the 1989 hit song, “If I Could Turn Back Time,” Cher succinctly sings, “ . . words are like weapons, they wound sometimes.” In more severe cases, not just words can inflict harm, but being on the receiving end of total silence can be just as damaging.

Inside the Mind of an Abuser


Abusers usually do not have insight into the significance of their problem. Rage and intimidation naturally occurs out of a deep psychological sense of entitlement which is tied in with having narcissistic traits. These people truly believe that others, in particular those that are intimately closest, must act the way they want them to otherwise there will be consequences. Typically, the underlying attitude develops as a response to their upbringing which involves family dysfunction.

Childhood experiences of growing up with abusive parents, alcoholic or drug addicted parents can have a negative life-long effect if not thoroughly processed. The abuser may have been abused or was traumatized watching events in the home. There is an emotional numbing that emerges out of the abusers' experiences that prevents them from getting closure on their history. Instead of letting go of past events, they permeate deep in the mind and often manifest into abusive behavior towards those closest to them.

Those who are good at being a “control freak” can present themselves as being very kind and gentle individuals. They have an uncanny ability to create a pleasing facade that gains respect from people in the community. However, once in the security of an intimate relationship, the facade diminishes and true colors start to shine.

Mood fluctuations within the abuser causes chaos in the mind of the victim. One moment things are wonderful, then suddenly, often without warning, a verbal assault is launched toward the victim or absolute silence. Living with the unpredictable nature of an abuser can create anxiety and panic attacks in the victim. What's worse is when the abuser attempts to justify what was said or done and turns things around to make the victim feel guilty.

Often these emotional hijackers tend to blame their actions on others or a situation (e.g. bad day at work) instead of owning their actions. This is often the case in which the abusers may suffer from depression, bipolar disorder, borderline personality, and other psychological symptoms.

Personality Characteristics of Abusers

Although this list is not complete, the following are some of the most common characteristics that abusers exhibit:

They use power and control as a way to alter their environment.

Manipulation through words and action occurs naturally.

Their propensity toward believing they are always right is strong.

They were abused or “spoiled rotten” as a child.

They are not cognizant of the “dark side” of their personality.

Their belief in having entitlements is very strong.

Poor impulse control.

Aggressive style of relating to people and situations.

Self-centered, rigid and lack the ability to see things from another's perspective.

Highly insecure, defensive and feel inferior.

Abusers have a narcissistic personality, meaning “it is all about them”. They lack insight and insensitivity to understand the damage they inflict on others. They feel justified by what they say and do and it takes intense efforts on the behalf of others to try to get them to understand they need help.

Abuse is a choice. If no one speaks out against them, and children are involved, then the cycle of abuse will continue to spin out of control. Getting an abuser to change can't happen unless he wants to change.


Manifestations of emotional abuse can deepen to include: anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, drug or alcohol dependency and eating disorders. In time, tension in the home becomes unbearable. Life with a person who inflicts emotional abuse affects the nerves and this has a ripple effect on children, who are exceedingly intuitive. These learned skills can ultimately cause them to become an abuser or to become a victim.

Nedra, was a controller "You will do it". I think ole Neddie, was still running the show from her parlor in Atlanta. I also think all the P's, were totally mind freaked by their mother.

This is a start on my Nedra, bio...lol... If you have questions please ask. If you need more info on her, I'm glad to give it.

I'll give you Don, PR and JR later today, as its 2:11 am here and I need some sleep. Hope I gave you what you were looking for.

 

[madeleine]

I was thinking about something re this thread.
Okay I am no PDI but MAYBE the reason why she decided to cover for JDI (if JDI) is that she suffered from MSBP?(I think she loved the attention she got after the murder.... I am thinking of JB's funeral)
I am not saying by this that she caused JB any pain or something,not thinking of that kind of MSBP.I only mean the getting attention part.
JB got a lot of attention because of the pageants,maybe PR missed that.
Just speculating here.

 

[Agatha_C]

Awe Dave, thanks for worrying, but I am whole and sound. No old wounds, just battle scars.

 

[Agatha_C]

I forgot to mention in my Nedra Post.... If she knew her girls were being molested and I believe that she did; her mental abuse would have been heightened, she would have blamed the P's.

If thats the case, and again this is my opinion, it would be a good argument for PR having committed this crime. If she blamed JB, for JR molestation of her, well her learned behavior from Neddie and her anger at her own father, might have caused the break that unltimatly led to JBR having to die.

The psychological issues go deep here, I mean they are almost limitless. Anger, rage, hurt, helplessness, and lashing out to name a few.

We'll get into this more when I get to my profile of PR, but first we have to understand the other players in this sad case of family dysfunction at its best/worst.

More to follow, are you all sick of me yet....lol.... It wouldn't matter anyway...

 

[SunnieRN]

Has anyone ever thought that John was the 'abuser' and Patsy was the victim. Often times the person who was abused as a child feels unworthy of true love and enters an abusive relationship. This is not necessarily a physical abuse, but emotional abuse. Remember Patsy complaining how much John travelled, or about the blond biotech down the street that wouldn't get John.

Due to the fact that John hired bigger and badder lawyers for himself than Patsy, tells me he would have gladly 'sold her down the river' if it wouldn't have gotten him in trouble also, however evidence is evidence, is evidence. He also made sure that BR was extremely well lawyered up!

He certainly didn't appear to be a warm or caring person. That is one thing that all the officers spoke of on that day. He wasn't offering or seeking comfort to/from Patsy, or their friends for that matter. Comments were made that he appeared nervous and distanced himself from Patsy and friends.

I have a theory about John, that I may list after Agatha C. Is finished! I am looking for her views on Burke, especially!

JR was on an agenda. He was not covering for Patsy, IMHO, unless the hit on the head occurred due to his abusing JB, which has never been a theory I put much stock into.

 

[Agatha_C]

I agree Sunni, I think PR was mentally damaged and JR new it and took advantage of it. I also think he was touching his daughter and that pushed PR over the edge. I don't think JR, killed JBR, but he's as guilty as the one that did.

 

[SunnieRN]

I am not sure Agatha, but it makes a lot of sense. This means that everything except the staging could have occurred in JB's room. This could also explain PR's statement about not seeing blood on JB's bed.

Furthermore this could explain the distance between PRAnd JR that day.

I still am not ready to give up my BR theory as that also fits all of the questions I have in my mind.

 

[Agatha_C]

I'll give you a profile on BR, Sunni. Hey, feel free to post away, I am eaqually intrested in your thoughts and ideas. So post away my friend.....

 

[Toltec]

The only abuse I can think of is sexual abuse. Patsy and her sisters were placed on pedestals by both parents...perfection being a priority.

We know Nedra groomed her daughters to be beauty queens, and both parents expected their daughters to marry well.

One gets to wondering what went wrong with Pam. She was once a beautiful woman (IMO prettier than Patsy) but ended up gaining lots of weight and never marrying. She never became a professional, instead choosing to work at a department store. Something very wrong with this picture.

 

[joeskidbeck]

The only abuse I can think of is sexual abuse. Patsy and her sisters were placed on pedestals by both parents...perfection being a priority.

We know Nedra groomed her daughters to be beauty queens, and both parents expected their daughters to marry well.

One gets to wondering what went wrong with Pam. She was once a beautiful woman (IMO prettier than Patsy) but ended up gaining lots of weight and never marrying. She never became a professional, instead choosing to work at a department store. Something very wrong with this picture.

BBM
Gosh, there are sooo many things that could have happened in the Paugh family that caused what eventually happened to JB. Toltec, your comment may have more significance than you realize. DP may have molested Pam for years with her telling her sister Patsy all about it. Patsy, of course, did not want to believe this about dear old dad. But what would happen (right around the time Patsy turns 40) she catches dear old dad molesting JonBenet. I can't stop thinking about John's comments concerning holding things in until you are 40. Ordinarily I would think a meltdown started right there but I believe the meltdown had begun at least a year before this happened. I really think Patsy had suspicions of JB being molested for quite a while but it was probably JR she had in mind, not DP. All those doctors visits really bother me, they have since I first heard of them. That is not normal behavior for a mother. Sure maybe when her first baby is born she will run to the doctor with every little sneeze, but not when the child is six and having all these type problems. I've been going from one who did it to the next these last few weeks, but the who did it that really concerns me right now is the molesting (and I am actually praying that it was only one person and not more). I believe this is the question that will answer it all. I also wish that the da's office in Boulder could be sued. That's one law in our constitution that needs to be changed. They have all the power and practically no supervision or culpability.

 

[SunnieRN]

The only abuse I can think of is sexual abuse. Patsy and her sisters were placed on pedestals by both parents...perfection being a priority.

We know Nedra groomed her daughters to be beauty queens, and both parents expected their daughters to marry well.

One gets to wondering what went wrong with Pam. She was once a beautiful woman (IMO prettier than Patsy) but ended up gaining lots of weight and never marrying. She never became a professional, instead choosing to work at a department store. Something very wrong with this picture.

Her weight gain could be a few things, hormonal issues, heredity or IMHO, a method of self protection. A way to comfort yourself when something has happened that you either cannot do anything about, or those you tell refuse to help.

Either way you feel powerless and often you do whatever possible to keep others from being interested in you. Self preservation and protection.

One interesting article,

http://endabuse.org/health/ejournal/archive/1-7/abuse_and_obesity.php

Another,

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/linking_sexual_abuse_to_obesit.html

And there are a lot more out there.

Looking forward to more Agatha.

 

[Agatha_C]

Daddy Don,
To understand Don, one has to travel back in time to the era in which he was raised. Men were dominant and in control of just about everything. Women and children were property, to be seen and not heard, too do what they were told without question. In his time, abuse was never talked about and virtually unreported.

Nedra, the cold and controlling manipulator enters his life. Suddenly, he finds he isn’t his father’s son, king of his castle, but rather the court fool who dances to the queen’s whim; making matters worse, she is cold and offers little comfort. She has emasculated him. Castration anxiety gives rise to feelings of sexual inadequacy and the need to be sexually dominant.

Nedra, has an agenda and he is powerless to stop her. Her daughters will bring them success because he either couldn’t, wouldn’t or hasn’t. She has made a failure of him.

This is dangerous ground here as he has three daughters. Most studies show, that an incest does not necessarily happen to all female members of the family, sometimes only to one and sometimes when she leaves he moves to the next. It just depends on the man, in DP’s case I feel it was all three, PR being the first and PP being the longest. The jury is still out on Polly.

Associated with the concept of the emotionally starved child is the view of the mother as being responsible for the occurrence of incest. There are numerous ideas around this but the central idea is that the child has natural affection needs which are not met by the mother. The mother is seen as cold and rejecting of the child who turns to the father as a source of security and affection. Another view is that the mother sexually deserts her husband who must then turn to the daughter for sex.

In this view the mother is seen to have failed fundamentally. Firstly, she is seen as a dysfunctional wife who does not fulfill her assigned role as sexual provider for the husband, or her nurturing role as mother and protector of her child. She does this by absenting herself either emotionally or physically from her children by working outside of the home, pursuing outside interests and activities, or through illness, hospitalization, escaping into depression, or by being emotionally and/or sexually frigid.

Both the mother and father are seen as dysfunctional adults who seek a role reversal and disintegration between generational boundaries with the child cast in the role of satisfying the sexual needs of the father while assuming a protective role towards the mother. The mother supposedly engineers the incestuous relationship by placing enormous responsibilities on the child.

What we see in this formulation is, once again, the collusive mother and it is this collusion which is seen to be the cornerstone of family pathology. In fact, it is argued by many family dysfunction theorists that the mother knows consciously or unconsciously that incest is taking place but chooses to deny it even when confronted by her daughter, by failing to take any preventative action or by blaming the daughter for the incest. Thus, in this view, the real abuser in an incestuous family is the mother/Nedra.

Please know I am not condoning DP’s abuse of his children, by blaming Nedra. I happen to believe that this is the case in this family. Impaired nurturing and diminished capacity for affection, along with putative masculine identity, restricts the forming of genuine relationships while encouraging sexual contact only with compliant submissive women who have inferior status. In addition, as male gender identity is more dependent on sexual success the sexually inadequate male may prefer a child as a sexual partner to bolster an inadequate adult ego. Some of the risk factor that inhibit the capacity for the child to resist include emotional insecurity and deprivation etc.

With this profile added to Nedra’s we begin to see the Psychological issues PR was dealing with (I’ll explain, more in her profile) Again, if there are questions please ask, I’m full of answers.
Sorry for the delay, but it was busy- busy- busy in my home today. Gotta love Monday…. Off to cook dinner and then J and PR’s profile. I sure hope this is helping.

 

[SunnieRN]

You know Agatha, I think you are very close to the truth in you suppositions of DP. I think that he was most likely insecure prior to marrying Nedra however. I think there were a lot of ways he liked her domineering personality.

If Nedra knew and did nothing she is as guilty as Don. Have they both passed away, or is Don still alive?

I had a friend in HS, about this same era. She confided in me that her Dad was abusing her. I asked her if she had told her Mom. Her Mom had said to her "It's your turn to keep your Daddy happy, I did it for years'.

I convinced her to tell our school counselor what was happening. Privacy, unfortunately was not of primary concern in that day. They removed all the children from the home. Everyone at school knew what had happened. Her Mother was livid and said my friend was lying. My friend ended up recanting her story, so the family could be reunited. A couple of weeks later, she was shipped To Grandmas, several states away.

I used to see her Mom at the school sometimes. I would always ask how her daughter was, and ask if she missed my friend.

She said to me once, "That child is better off where she is. She was always a liar." (This is why when the R's use that term it grates on me so bad.)

I would never talk to her again. The rest of their children were boys.

 

[eleven]

Daddy Don,
To understand Don, one has to travel back in time to the era in which he was raised. Men were dominant and in control of just about everything. Women and children were property, to be seen and not heard, too do what they were told without question. In his time, abuse was never talked about and virtually unreported.

Nedra, the cold and controlling manipulator enters his life. Suddenly, he finds he isn’t his father’s son, king of his castle, but rather the court fool who dances to the queen’s whim; making matters worse, she is cold and offers little comfort. She has emasculated him. Castration anxiety gives rise to feelings of sexual inadequacy and the need to be sexually dominant.

Nedra, has an agenda and he is powerless to stop her. Her daughters will bring them success because he either couldn’t, wouldn’t or hasn’t. She has made a failure of him.

This is dangerous ground here as he has three daughters. Most studies show, that an incest does not necessarily happen to all female members of the family, sometimes only to one and sometimes when she leaves he moves to the next. It just depends on the man, in DP’s case I feel it was all three, PR being the first and PP being the longest. The jury is still out on Polly.

Associated with the concept of the emotionally starved child is the view of the mother as being responsible for the occurrence of incest. There are numerous ideas around this but the central idea is that the child has natural affection needs which are not met by the mother. The mother is seen as cold and rejecting of the child who turns to the father as a source of security and affection. Another view is that the mother sexually deserts her husband who must then turn to the daughter for sex.

In this view the mother is seen to have failed fundamentally. Firstly, she is seen as a dysfunctional wife who does not fulfill her assigned role as sexual provider for the husband, or her nurturing role as mother and protector of her child. She does this by absenting herself either emotionally or physically from her children by working outside of the home, pursuing outside interests and activities, or through illness, hospitalization, escaping into depression, or by being emotionally and/or sexually frigid.

Both the mother and father are seen as dysfunctional adults who seek a role reversal and disintegration between generational boundaries with the child cast in the role of satisfying the sexual needs of the father while assuming a protective role towards the mother. The mother supposedly engineers the incestuous relationship by placing enormous responsibilities on the child.

What we see in this formulation is, once again, the collusive mother and it is this collusion which is seen to be the cornerstone of family pathology. In fact, it is argued by many family dysfunction theorists that the mother knows consciously or unconsciously that incest is taking place but chooses to deny it even when confronted by her daughter, by failing to take any preventative action or by blaming the daughter for the incest. Thus, in this view, the real abuser in an incestuous family is the mother/Nedra.

Please know I am not condoning DP’s abuse of his children, by blaming Nedra. I happen to believe that this is the case in this family. Impaired nurturing and diminished capacity for affection, along with putative masculine identity, restricts the forming of genuine relationships while encouraging sexual contact only with compliant submissive women who have inferior status. In addition, as male gender identity is more dependent on sexual success the sexually inadequate male may prefer a child as a sexual partner to bolster an inadequate adult ego. Some of the risk factor that inhibit the capacity for the child to resist include emotional insecurity and deprivation etc.

Hmmm. I will say that you write very well. Do you, or I should say, did you, personally KNOW DP & NP, or are you gleaning your post simply from your own opinion and various website snippets? I am willing to bet you only "knew" them from what various posters on random websites said.

I am amazed that from this crime, you have hypothesized that JB's Grandmother was a, quote: "dysfunctional wife who does not fulfill her assigned role as sexual provider for the husband, or her nurturing role as mother and protector of her child. She does this by absenting herself either emotionally or physically from her children by working outside of the home, pursuing outside interests and activities, or through illness, hospitalization, escaping into depression, or by being emotionally and/or sexually frigid." End quote.

I won't delve into the absolute absurdity of insinuating that mothers who are "working outside the home, pursing other interests and activities", OR mothers who are "through illness, hospitalization, escaping into depression" that your post clearly states. It's not even insinuated---you clearly stated it! WOW.



I have questions regarding some of your statements above.

1. Your statement: "Associated with the concept of the emotionally starved child is the view of the mother as being responsible for the occurrence of incest" ...
My question: WHO "associates" a mother as being responsible for an occurrence of incest? That's quite a supposition and to me, is certainly not a supposition that experts in the field "associate" as being a reality. At all.

2. Your statement: "The mother is seen as cold and rejecting of the child who turns to the father as a source of security and affection. Another view is that the mother sexually deserts her husband who must then turn to the daughter for sex."
My question: Incest, molestation, sexual abuse and rape are in NO WAY about SEX. That is a very antiquated and erroneous view, IMO and I am curious whose "view" you are posting this about? Those type of thought processes only serve the purpose of victimizing the victim once again. It serves to validate a "reason" and blame anyone but the perpetrator for child sex abuse. The only "reason" that a perpetrator abuses an innocent child is due to the abusers pathology/mindset and nothing more. Long gone are the days of placing blame on everyone but the abuser.

I am done. Just had to throw my two cents in. I have worked with many child abuse victims, survivors (and some that ultimately DID NOT survive) as well as the abusers, and when I read your post, I felt like I was reading something written 100 years ago. It is so incredibly far off base that I am now going to enjoy a glass of chablis, and wait for my work day to start tomorrow. First appointment is with a family of 2 girls who have experienced horrific abuse at the hands of their father. Hmmm...no mother in the home...who to blame???!!!! :banghead::banghead:

 

[Toltec]

I do not believe Nedra neglected her daughters emotionally. She was a pageant mother and my belief is she was a "helicopter parent". Nedra was involved in every aspect of her daughters lives and to know these girls is to know how they were reared.

Patsy was #1 daughter and most likely the favorite. She excelled in school, very popular and was known not to be mean to anyone.

Too perfect?? I believe she was being sexually abused and felt that the only way she could survive is to be the perfect daughter. She had no control at home but outside the home, she did.

If anyone I feel for, it's Pam Paugh.

 

[Agatha_C]

Eleven,

First of all, I'm not blaming all mothers, there are many forms of abuse and abusers, in this case I lean towards Freud. I don't agree with him, on the norm, but in some cases I do. Now if I seem to be quoting internet snippets its because (if you read my other posts) I deal in child advocacy as I've stated and I foster parent, again already stated I've read hundreds of books and internet resources, I keep notes and write papers/bios on those that interest me enough to take the time. It does not make me all knowing but I know a lot about human nature and psyche, I'm simply going on my theory, which lets face it, thats all anyone here has.

I'm not saying mothers that work outside of the home as a whole. Its more a reference to distancing herself. If your going to call me on the carpet, at least read what I write with an open mind and try to glean the meaning, or don't read my opinion.

 

[Agatha_C]

Did Eleven not read that I was basing this on N and D era????

 

[Frigga]

Agatha, I totally get what you are saying and like anything this is just one of many dynamics possible when it comes to incest. If a mother knows whether consciously or unconsciously that sexual abuse is being perpetrated on her child by ANY family member and does nothing to stop it that is collusion and it happens all the time. Not every time, but often enough for there to be validity to what you imply with the Paughs. I know first hand! Sometimes the mother is told and (as the other previous poster explained about her friend) she chooses not to believe the child, that is collusion as well and it happens often enough. I know many survivors who come from one or the other experience. I am grateful to read your theories and opinions Agatha, I look forward to your future posts.

 

[Agatha_C]

Eleven,

I understand your anger at what you read, like I said, its not the situation for everyone, but if even you, can't see that it is the dynamics in some homes, then pity those girls that you see.

Oh and Eleven, I came from that type of home, you want me to share our other dysfunctions?