JBR, PR and UMI

[DeeDee249]

I don't think you can say that all the moms who put their little girls in these kinds of "glitz" pageants are bad people or think they are putting their little girls out there as pedophile bait. But they have to know they are sexualizing their appearance in a way that most people would not deem appropriate. The hair extensions, flippers (temporary removable fake front teeth in case the baby teeth have come out) and frilly, sequined dresses are not sexual in and of themselves. It's the 20-something make-up, the come-hither looks and suggestive dance moves that are the problem. I think they ALL share one thought though (this includes Patsy and to an even larger extent, Nedra)- they want FAME (national or world-wide) and fortune for their daughters. I won't delve into whether these moms need to experience it vicariously. I am not trying to be insulting here, but the moms I see on those reality shows like "Toddlers & Tiaras) are anything but beauty queen material. They say "heredity is your destiny". If so, most of these kids have a very short window to achieve this fame. I haven't seen a talent knockout yet- no Shirley Temples in the lot.
For Patsy, and especially for Nedra-winning the Miss America Pageant, specifically, was what was the pot of gold here. After two near-misses (though I don't know if either Paugh sister made it to the "Top 10", JB was their last shot. And they wanted to start as young as they could to give her every advantage by the time she was 18 (the minimum age for the Miss America Pageant). JR was young enough to be compliant, and I have no doubt she did enjoy the performing and fancy dress part, though I am sure the coaching and lessons, fittings and photo sessions were not something she particularly liked (no kid that age would).

 

[DeeDee249]

AND i think that Patsy was far more damaged by her treatments than anyone who knew her was aware of.

 

[madeleine]

Now THAT's something I can get my head around.

Aren't you curious to know what that card from Santa said that was found in the trash in pieces?I am.Why would a 6 year old be so angry and do that.Unfortunately ST admits they never put it together to see what it said.

 

[madeleine]

Maybe they had good reason.

Agree to disagree.:truce:

 

[BBB167893]

Aren't you curious to know what that card from Santa said that was found in the trash in pieces?I am.Why would a 6 year old be so angry and do that.Unfortunately ST admits they never put it together to see what it said.

I am curious about it. I'm not 100% that JB tore it up, though.

 

[madeleine]

I am curious about it. I'm not 100% that JB tore it up, though.

I agree,I don't think she did either.That's why it's interesting.,Who did and why.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Patsy enters the room. Sees the covers. Does she approach what she suspects is her daughter under those covers? Or, does she remain at a distance and after a period of time exit the room? If, perhaps, she went over to view and touch her daughter, is it possible she may have moved her little body at all? Or, did Patsy remain aloof, showing no signs of affection or grief by cradling her? If she did embrace the little girl's body, is it possible she kissed her, wept and sobbed hysterically and may have moved her coverings just enough to view the little heart on her palm? In addition, since there is there is no proof that her hands couldn't be seen anyway, nor that she didn't look at them, the conclusion that she did not see the heart on her palm at this time, whether consciously aware of it or not, is false. It is absurd and preposterous and utterly ridiculous.

 

[MurriFlower]

Patsy enters the room. Sees the covers. Does she approach what she suspects is her daughter under those covers? Or, does she remain at a distance and after a period of time exit the room? If, perhaps, she went over to view and touch her daughter, is it possible she may have moved her little body at all? Or, did Patsy remain aloof, showing no signs of affection or grief by cradling her? If she did embrace the little girl's body, is it possible she kissed her, wept and sobbed hysterically and may have moved her coverings just enough to view the little heart on her palm? In addition, since there is there is no proof that her hands couldn't be seen anyway, nor that she didn't look at them, the conclusion that she did not see the heart on her palm at this time, whether consciously aware of it or not, is false. It is absurd and preposterous and utterly ridiculous.

I can't find the quote now but wasn't it true that she was restrained by her friends (in the other room) from rushing to the little girls body?

 

[WHITEFANG]

I can't find the quote now but wasn't it true that she was restrained by her friends (in the other room) from rushing to the little girls body?

Wild horses couldn't have kept her away from that child.

 

[BBB167893]

Patsy enters the room. Sees the covers. Does she approach what she suspects is her daughter under those covers? Or, does she remain at a distance and after a period of time exit the room? If, perhaps, she went over to view and touch her daughter, is it possible she may have moved her little body at all? Or, did Patsy remain aloof, showing no signs of affection or grief by cradling her? If she did embrace the little girl's body, is it possible she kissed her, wept and sobbed hysterically and may have moved her coverings just enough to view the little heart on her palm? In addition, since there is there is no proof that her hands couldn't be seen anyway, nor that she didn't look at them, the conclusion that she did not see the heart on her palm at this time, whether consciously aware of it or not, is false. It is absurd and preposterous and utterly ridiculous.

I don't know, Fang. There's nothing in any account I can find (not even their own) about her doing any of the things you suggest.

 

[BBB167893]

I can't find the quote now but wasn't it true that she was restrained by her friends (in the other room) from rushing to the little girls body?

Wild horses couldn't have kept her away from that child.

I'm not sure, you guys. Here's what I found on page 19 of PMPT:

She did not move despite all the shouting that JonBenet had been found.

It also mentions how she had to be "led by the hand" by Barbara Fernie.

 

[DeeDee249]

Aren't you curious to know what that card from Santa said that was found in the trash in pieces?I am.Why would a 6 year old be so angry and do that.Unfortunately ST admits they never put it together to see what it said.

Yes. I was always disappointed that more investigation wasn't done on that note. Patsy is asked about it an the interview, but the questioning never seems to go anywhere. That note should have been taken into evidence- tested for prints, DNA, handwriting.
But I don't think it was proven that JB was the one who tore it up. Sadly, she wasn't there to ask.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'm not sure, you guys. Here's what I found on page 19 of PMPT:

She did not move despite all the shouting that JonBenet had been found.

It also mentions how she had to be "led by the hand" by Barbara Fernie.

Perfectly consistent. She got there, alright, no matter how agonizing it was to see her worse fears confirmed. At this point, she knew she was gone. How? Imagine the horror. She didn't come running up to her mother. She was taken into another room. J screaming get an ambulance. This wasn't an afternoon tea party in the Hamptons, by God.

Especially, when you consider the way some say they hold Patsy in a measure of esteem, is it so difficult to picture her shock and grief?

If she was such an astute observer of human behavior, and she was the killer, she would have to keep up appearances by racing into the room to feign concern, at the very least. Yet, she is observed looking in upon this scene reluctantly because she knew ahead of time what she would find. It can't be both. Performing both roles at the same time, the calculating killer and loving mother, can't work.

 

[BBB167893]

Perfectly consistent. She got there, alright, no matter how agonizing it was to see her worse fears confirmed. At this point, she knew she was gone. How? Imagine the horror. She didn't come running up to her mother. She was taken into another room. J screaming get an ambulance. This wasn't an afternoon tea party in the Hamptons, by God.

I don't doubt that it was agonizing.

Especially, when you consider the way some say they hold Patsy in a measure of esteem, is it so difficult to picture her shock and grief?

No, I can't say it is.

If she was such an astute observer of human behavior, and she was the killer, she would have to keep up appearances by racing into the room to feign concern, at the very least.

That's just it. I don't think she was such an astute observer of human behavior, at least not in the manner you suggest. That's one of the issues I was hoping to address by starting this thread: I'm not convinced that she related to others, just not quite the way we might. I have no doubt that her feelings of love and grief and joy were all real, but that her ability to relate to people was...how do I say this without giving the wrong idea...compromised by whatever issues she may have had (if any). PLEASE, don't anyone take that the wrong way. I'm doing my very best here.

Yet, she is observed looking in upon this scene reluctantly because she knew ahead of time what she would find.

That's what I'm saying. Only by that time, she'd had a chance to calm down and let it really sink in. It was "real" now.

It can't be both.

I'm not saying it was both.

Performing both roles at the same time, the calculating killer and loving mother, can't work.

Now don't go putting words in my mouth. I NEVER claimed she WAS a calculating killer. If I believed that, I'd take an entirely different tack than I take. And again (for all the good it does me), I'm not saying her appearance as a loving mother WAS an act.

You're making it out as if I'm saying she was a sociopath, completely incapable of empathy or feeling. That is NOT it. Just because a person may have mental problems, that doesn't mean that they are a monster.

This is so frustrating.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'm not sure, you guys. Here's what I found on page 19 of PMPT:

She did not move despite all the shouting that JonBenet had been found.

It also mentions how she had to be "led by the hand" by Barbara Fernie.

SUPER, my comments here are not directed at you. Not at all. My comments/arguments are with the sheer nonsense spewing from any number of directions.

"Though it's unclear why, Arndt then picked up the body again and moved it to the living room near the Christmas tree where Ramsey knelt beside her, repeating "My little angel," over and over. Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét."

 

[BBB167893]

SUPER, my comments here are not directed at you. Not at all.

I understand. It's tough when you're an old soldier.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998)

I'm not sure, you guys. Here's what I found on page 19 of PMPT:


Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998)

She did not move despite all the shouting that JonBenet had been found.

Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998)

It also mentions how she had to be "led by the hand" by Barbara Fernie.

Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998)


1:05 PM Byfield Notified. BPD officer Jim Byfield is notified that JBR body had been found (Byfield 1997:1)


Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998)

After 1:05 PM JBR Carried Upstairs "He then carried her body upstairs. (SMF P 39; PSMF P 39.)" (Carnes 2003:17). "Ramsey ripped the duct tape off JonBenét's mouth and carried her up the stairs, setting her down on the floor.


Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998)



Though it's unclear why, Arndt then picked up the body again and moved it to the living room near the Christmas tree where Ramsey knelt beside her, repeating "My little angel," over and over. Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998).

Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998)


Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998)

 

[WHITEFANG]

1:05 PM Byfield Notified. BPD officer Jim Byfield is notified that JBR body had been found (Byfield 1997:1)

After 1:05 PM JBR Carried Upstairs "He then carried her body upstairs. (SMF P 39; PSMF P 39.)" (Carnes 2003:17). "Ramsey ripped the duct tape off JonBenét's mouth and carried her up the stairs, setting her down on the floor. Though it's unclear why, Arndt then picked up the body again and moved it to the living room near the Christmas tree where Ramsey knelt beside her, repeating "My little angel," over and over. Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998).

It becomes clearer as time passes that truth and accuracy are more important and more readily grasped by some than others. 2 plus 2 equals 4. Not on planet Urthenlobnis. No sir ree bob. Don't compare apples with apples from there, man. Two doesn't exist on Urthenlobnis. 4 does, but not 2.

"I said, 'don't throw that rock at me.'"

"No, you said, 'I have a diamond mine. Want to see it?'"

Whose on first.

 

[WHITEFANG]

"Are you kidding? "That lump" was her daughter and she knew it. It wasn't left by Santa under that tree. Since none of us were there, we don't know it the top of JB's hair was visible or if her feet were sticking out. We know her at least her face and torso, including arms, would have fit under the average afghan."

"We couldn't tell if her hair was sticking out, but we knew her hands were covered?"

Where do you get this stuff? It makes no sense. It is blatant error on the most basic level.

"Her hands weren't visible. Body was covered with an afghan and sweatshirt- like I said.

"

You can say that 76 times. You are still wrong. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff? It is incredible.

"I'd LOVE to know what it was about,

because what we are led to believe is this:

FW saw the Rs lack of cooperation with police as detrimental to solving the crime or proving their innocence.

There are some who believe that FW knew what happened that night and wanted the Rs to tell the truth.

When JR thought FW was going to tell LE, he pointed a finger at FW.

It was at that point FW stopped talking. Can't blame him, either.

I feel that some of the Rs friends, including FW, MAY have been called to the house after JB was killed. JR slipped and said "there were a lot of people here at 3 in the morning".

Possibly the staging was done after these friends left, and possibly after the Rs talked to one of their lawyers.

Maybe that's what FW was so upset about- the staging. Too bad we'll likely never know. IF JR dies before FW, he may decide to talk then."

These are guesses, not opinions. "I feel, he may, maybe, possibly, led to believe, likely, some who believe..."

You need to do some hard work. Opinions are based on well reasoned, logical arguments based on facts. Your musings show you have a vivid imagination, not sound reasoning. You're not even close to making sense. Your ideas are not based on reality many times.

Tell me, how many times are you referring to? Give chapter and verse. "As has been explained to you many times-" consistent with" is the only way fiber analysis is described by anyone analyzing the fibers..." Plus, your position is wrong.

Remember the, "How dare you tell me Patsy's reaction was 'show me where it says that?'" Or words like that? And you couldn't. Her response was much different than just what you said she said.

Seriously, you have alot of work to do before you are credible.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I don't know, Fang. There's nothing in any account I can find (not even their own) about her doing any of the things you suggest.

Though it's unclear why, Arndt then picked up the body again and moved it to the living room near the Christmas tree where Ramsey knelt beside her, repeating "My little angel," over and over. Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998).