JBR, PR and UMI

[BBB167893]

Though it's unclear why, Arndt then picked up the body again and moved it to the living room near the Christmas tree where Ramsey knelt beside her, repeating "My little angel," over and over. Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998).

I'm glad you decided to speak to me, Fang. I was starting to feel like I wasn't wanted.

Like I said, nothing of what you say is mentioned. Moreover, if what I read at FOXNews.com is accurate, PR never even touched the upper part of JB's body. I realize you don't want to hear this, especially from me, but her statements about the little heart are a big problem.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'm glad you decided to speak to me, Fang. I was starting to feel like I wasn't wanted.

Like I said, nothing of what you say is mentioned. Moreover, if what I read at FOXNews.com is accurate, PR never even touched the upper part of JB's body. I realize you don't want to hear this, especially from me, but her statements about the little heart are a big problem.

Super, are you saying that P didn't throw herself over Joni's body as it says in the police report? Or are you saying that there is no proof she cradled her?

Perfectly consistent. She got there, alright, no matter how agonizing it was to see her worse fears confirmed. At this point, she knew she was gone. How? Imagine the horror. She didn't come running up to her mother. She was taken into another room. FW screaming, "get an ambulance." This wasn't an afternoon tea party in the Hamptons, by God.

Patsy enters the room. Sees the covers. Does she approach what she suspects is her daughter under those covers? Or, does she remain at a distance and after a period of time exit the room? If, perhaps, she went over to view and touch her daughter, is it possible she may have moved her little body at all? Or, did Patsy remain aloof, showing no signs of affection or grief by cradling her? If she did embrace the little girl's body, is it possible she kissed her, wept and sobbed hysterically and may have moved her coverings just enough to view the little heart on her palm? In addition, since there is there is no proof that her hands couldn't be seen anyway, nor that she didn't look at them, the conclusion that she did not see the heart on her palm at this time, whether consciously aware of it or not, is false. It is absurd and preposterous and utterly ridiculous.


I don't know, Fang. There's nothing in any account I can find (not even their own) about her doing any of the things you suggest.

My friends used to tell me that having a child was the greatest experience they ever had. I told them they were nuts. How is that possible? Having a kid is probably pretty cool, but the greatest thing ever? Ever? Just wait. You'll see. You have to hold a little baby, your little baby, in your arms, first. Then you will know. Then, you will understand. And I knew they were nuts, but, big deal. I did not imagine and I could not imagine what is god's name they were talking about. One thing was obvious, though. You could see in their beaming eyes they were telling the truth.
Three seconds after I held my baby in my arms, change swept over me thoroughly and for good. Boom! Presto! New me.

Many things influence my/our lives. A few things have powerful sway. Having a child is cataclysmic. In its impact, it is Katrina, the Haitian earthquake and climbing Mount Everest times 5.

Discussing in exquisite detail the horrors that loving parents willfully, deliberately, patiently and with premeditation inflicted upon this little girl is much more challenging when you know they know what it's like to be a mommy or a daddy and to have loved and cared for their child day and night for years. A gift from God.

I see JR plodding next door in the cold, dark, night sky; stars and silhouettes played hide and seek and flickered around his warm breath, as he retrieved the brand new bicycle for Joni just in time for Christmas, stored safely with his neighbor.

 

[BBB167893]

Super, are you saying that P didn't throw herself over Joni's body as it says in the police report? Or are you saying that there is no proof she she cradled her?

No proof she cradled her. I should have been more specific.

My friends used to tell me that having a child was the greatest experience they ever had. I told them they were nuts. How is that possible? Having a kid is probably pretty cool, but the greatest thing ever? Ever? Just wait. You'll see. You have to hold a little baby, your little baby, in your arms, first. Then you will know. Then, you will understand. And I knew they were nuts, but, big deal. I did not imagine and I could not imagine what is god's name they were talking about. One thing was obvious, though. You could see in their beaming eyes they were telling the truth.
Three seconds after I held my baby in my arms, change swept over me thoroughly and for good. Boom! Presto! New me.

My mother used to tell me the same thing.

Discussing in exquisite detail the horrors that loving parents willfully, deliberately, patiently and with premeditation inflicted upon this little girl is much more challenging when you know they know what it's like to be a mommy or a daddy and to have loved and cared for their child day and night for years.

Well, number one, as I've said before, I don't believe this killing was premeditated. Number two, I suppose it would be challenging. But not impossible. My mother believed they did it.

Good or bad, Fang--and it most likely is bad--I've become almost immune to emotional considerations in this case. I don't let them influence me. I can't.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I don't know, Fang. There's nothing in any account I can find (not even their own) about her doing any of the things you suggest.

Not just cradling her, Super. "Nothing" from what you say.


"I've become almost immune to emotional considerations in this case. I don't let them influence me. I can't."


Therein lies the heart of the matter. Not allowing the reality of "emotions" to influence your thoughts and opinions whatsoever is the Achilles heel in your analysis. Their love is the most important factor when weighing the value of everything else pertaining to this case.

It is a critical failure of judgement to conclude that the killer(s) did not know her baby was alive. It is an error of insurmountable proportions.

If they/she believed Joni was in fact dead and still tightened a garrote bursting blood vessels, leaving a deep wound in her tiny neck, then smashing her head in was taking a walk through the park. If bashing her skull in was accidental, tightening the garrote was premeditated murder, even if she believed she was dead. No, it was worse.

 

[DeeDee249]

If the accidental head bash came first, then that wasn't something they would have had to think about doing in advance. The horrible, red ligature furrow wasn't visible until the cord was cut off by the coroner because it was under the cord. When we see it in the photos, the cord has been removed. Likewise the burst blood vessels (petechiae) which probably wouldn't be seen by someone as they were strangling her.

 

[BBB167893]

Not just cradling her, Super. "Nothing" from what you say.

Sorry. I was generalizing a bit. I meant no proof she cradled her.

Therein lies the heart of the matter. Not allowing the reality of "emotions" to influence your thoughts and opinions whatsoever is the Achilles heel in your analysis.

That's where we part company. Too many people allowed their emotions to rule their sense in this case.

Their love is the most important factor when weighing the value of everything else pertaining to this case.

I cannot agree. As much as it kills me inside, I can't allow that consideration to influence my thinking.

It is a critical failure of judgement to conclude that the killer(s) did not know her baby was alive. It is an error of insurmountable proportions.

It's not me you need to tell that to.

If they/she believed Joni was in fact dead and still tightened a garrote bursting blood vessels, leaving a deep wound in her tiny neck, then smashing her head in was taking a walk through the park. If bashing her skull in was accidental, tightening the garrote was premeditated murder, even if she believed she was dead. No, it was worse.

How do you figure any of that? Number one, under the law, you can't murder someone you think is already dead.

I'm starting to think that you just say these things to mess with me.

 

[WHITEFANG]

If the accidental head bash came first, then that wasn't something they would have had to think about doing in advance. The horrible, red ligature furrow wasn't visible until the cord was cut off by the coroner because it was under the cord. When we see it in the photos, the cord has been removed. Likewise the burst blood vessels (petechiae) which probably wouldn't be seen by someone as they were strangling her.

If the accidental head bash came first, then that wasn't something they would have had to think about doing in advance.



The horrible, red ligature furrow wasn't visible until the cord was cut off by the coroner because it was under the cord. When we see it in the photos, the cord has been removed. Likewise the burst blood vessels (petechiae) which probably wouldn't be seen by someone as they were strangling her.


If they closed their eyes and chopped her head off, they wouldn't see that either. This is insanity. I am not trying to be funny. Don't you see what you're saying?

PEOPLE. THEY CHOKED THEIR DAUGHTER.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

AND i think that Patsy was far more damaged by her treatments than anyone who knew her was aware of.

I can totally relate to this whole line of thinking. My mother was sexually abused by her father, and it drove her to the brink. Before she took her own life she resorted to physical and mental abuse of her children. And her father went on to sexually abuse my sister and myself. Besides dealing with all of that, I had a number of physical issues to deal with over the years, culminating with a brain aneurysm a number of years ago. I remember waking up one morning about two years after the aneurysm and thinking, "Wow! I should have had a keeper these past two years!" Mind you I didn't kill my child, but I did do what I think were some pretty nutty things as the result of a combination of dealing with all of the above minus any help from my austere father (who, by the way, I continue to try to please to no avail even at my age...and yes, Neda reminds me a lot of him).

So I get where DD and SD are coming from. I would never look on someone with mental illness issues as a total tyrant. The sad thing is PR probably exhibited A LOT of warning signs, but friends probably passed them off as a result of dealing with cancer, the treatments and the ensuing menopause. And they left it at that. They didn't go beyond those thoughts and think, "And if something isn't done, it could get worse." They had a reason for her behaviors and that was that.

I do not think this child was killed intentionally. I truly think it was in a fit of anger driven by a combination of the need for perfection (drilled into PR by Neda), the need for perfect love (which PR didn't think she was getting from JBR and certainly wasn't getting from Neda or JR), trying to function while fighting a deadly disease, trying to function while dealing with the horrible effects of treatment, trying to function while dealing with abrupt menopause, plus fatigue and stress over the holidays.

I think the abduction was staged because a) JBR was gone and PR spending her final days in prison would not bring her back; or b) JBR was obviously brain dead, and the decision was made to "put her out of her misery" and do so in a manner that would imply abduction-gone-bad, keeping PR out of prison in the process.

I come to these conclusions having followed this case (and these boards) for ages and ages. I won't cite this source or that. Those of you who are active here do a great job of that, and ya'll have much more patience in doing so than I do.

I do read the posts from all sides. I think about the other scenarios when presented, but I continue to come back to the RDI no matter what. And the sad thing is that I'd really love to be able to be on the IDI side of the fence.

 

[joeskidbeck]

WHITEFANG, do you believe that Patsy was incapable of accidentally hurting JB in a fit of rage due to emotional duress? If so, what do you make of the Andrea Yates case in which she intentionally drowned her 5 children, one at a time? Do you not believe that she loved those children? By all accounts, they were her whole world.
I say this because I don't think you really believe that most RDI's KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT that Patsy loved that little girl with all of her being and we do not believe she intentionally hurt her, much less premeditated her death.

 

[WHITEFANG]

That murderer has absolutely nothing to with this horror. Nothing.

 

[BBB167893]

I can totally relate to this whole line of thinking. My mother was sexually abused by her father, and it drove her to the brink. Before she took her own life she resorted to physical and mental abuse of her children. And her father went on to sexually abuse my sister and myself. Besides dealing with all of that, I had a number of physical issues to deal with over the years, culminating with a brain aneurysm a number of years ago. I remember waking up one morning about two years after the aneurysm and thinking, "Wow! I should have had a keeper these past two years!" Mind you I didn't kill my child, but I did do what I think were some pretty nutty things as the result of a combination of dealing with all of the above minus any help from my austere father (who, by the way, I continue to try to please to no avail even at my age...and yes, Neda reminds me a lot of him).

So I get where DD and SD are coming from. I would never look on someone with mental illness issues as a total tyrant. The sad thing is PR probably exhibited A LOT of warning signs, but friends probably passed them off as a result of dealing with cancer, the treatments and the ensuing menopause. And they left it at that. They didn't go beyond those thoughts and think, "And if something isn't done, it could get worse." They had a reason for her behaviors and that was that.

I do not think this child was killed intentionally. I truly think it was in a fit of anger driven by a combination of the need for perfection (drilled into PR by Neda), the need for perfect love (which PR didn't think she was getting from JBR and certainly wasn't getting from Neda or JR), trying to function while fighting a deadly disease, trying to function while dealing with the horrible effects of treatment, trying to function while dealing with abrupt menopause, plus fatigue and stress over the holidays.

I think the abduction was staged because a) JBR was gone and PR spending her final days in prison would not bring her back; or b) JBR was obviously brain dead, and the decision was made to "put her out of her misery" and do so in a manner that would imply abduction-gone-bad, keeping PR out of prison in the process.

I come to these conclusions having followed this case (and these boards) for ages and ages. I won't cite this source or that. Those of you who are active here do a great job of that, and ya'll have much more patience in doing so than I do.

I do read the posts from all sides. I think about the other scenarios when presented, but I continue to come back to the RDI no matter what. And the sad thing is that I'd really love to be able to be on the IDI side of the fence.

Finally, someone who knows what I'm talking about.

 

[BBB167893]

WHITEFANG, do you believe that Patsy was incapable of accidentally hurting JB in a fit of rage due to emotional duress? If so, what do you make of the Andrea Yates case in which she intentionally drowned her 5 children, one at a time? Do you not believe that she loved those children? By all accounts, they were her whole world.
I say this because I don't think you really believe that most RDI's KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT that Patsy loved that little girl with all of her being and we do not believe she intentionally hurt her, much less premeditated her death.

:clap: :clap:

 

[WHITEFANG]

I believe that every parent who killed her own child was exactly like Patsy. All of them are the same. Identical, in fact. Married to millionaires, former Miss West Virgina's, high strung, spoiled, devious, disturbed, benzodiazapine popping, cancer surviving, two glasses of wine consuming, Christmas day weary, hormone imbalanced approaching 40 years old women with a child who soils herself. In fact, it's a miracle any children survive to adulthood. All loved their kids as Patsy did. They were all accidental murders with staging to throw off the fuzz to save their own skin.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I believe that every parent who killed her own child was exactly like Patsy. All of them are the same. Identical, in fact. Married to millionaires, former Miss West Virgina's, high strung, spoiled, devious, disturbed, benzodiazapine popping, cancer surviving, two glasses of wine consuming, Christmas day weary, hormone imbalanced approaching 40 years old women with a child who soils herself. In fact, it's a miracle any children survive to adulthood. All loved their kids as Patsy did. They were all accidental murders with staging to throw off the fuzz to save their own skin.

So you really are aware of all the reasons that Patsy MAY have snapped and hurt JB, you just refuse to believe that it could have happened.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Personally, I believe there is a small amount of comfort in the RDI/UMI theory. I'm sure JB was pretty accustomed to her mother's anger over the bed wetting. Which means, to me anyway, that JB's last moments were with her mother and not some psychotic murdering pedophile. At least she wasn't expecting to die a horrible death in her own home.

 

[BBB167893]

Personally, I believe there is a small amount of comfort in the RDI/UMI theory. I'm sure JB was pretty accustomed to her mother's anger over the bed wetting. Which means, to me anyway, that JB's last moments were with her mother and not some psychotic murdering pedophile. At least she wasn't expecting to die a horrible death in her own home.

I don't know, Beck. I find no comfort in it at all. Somehow, it makes it even worse.

 

[OneLove]

That murderer has absolutely nothing to with this horror. Nothing.

"That murderer" did not have anything to do with this horror. That murderer's mental illness has EVERYTHING to do with this horror, in my opinion.

We see murders committed everyday by both mothers and fathers whose signs of mental illness were ignored or minimalized by people who thought it could NEVER get bad enough to lead to murder.

I have changed my life to care for a granddaughter. Her mother is exceptionally bright, creative, fun, charming, kind, compassionate, etc., except when she is stressed, and then her mental illness makes it dangerous for my granddaughter to be left in her care.

We could just ignore this and act as though it doesn't happen because no one ever sees these actions in public. Her close friends are not around when the worst behaviors happen. However, she is in the care of highly qualified psychiatrists, and they tell us to be vigilant and not leave her alone with her child when she is stressed.

Otherwise, she is the picture of the perfect mother. In public. KWIM?

 

[joeskidbeck]

OneLove, you have my upmost respect for protecting your granddaughter. It pains me to say this, but at one time, my daughter became addicted to meth. When she was on this drug she became someone nobody had ever seen before. As her mother I loved her, but as grandmother to her 2 small children, I had to take action. I gained temporary custody of both of them till such time as she not only admitted her addiction, but sought treatment. It took a little over a year for her to get to the point where we were comfortable with her caring for her kids again. But, make no mistake about it, if I hadn't intervened, one or both of her children would not be alive today. She has been "clean" for 2 years now and although she hated me for app. 6 mos., she now realizes that I did what I did out of love. She was a MONSTER while under the drug's influence. I know what can happen to people who are under the influence of drugs, whether or not they are prescribed by a doctor.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'm glad you decided to speak to me, Fang. I was starting to feel like I wasn't wanted.

Like I said, nothing of what you say is mentioned. Moreover, if what I read at FOXNews.com is accurate, PR never even touched the upper part of JB's body. I realize you don't want to hear this, especially from me, but her statements about the little heart are a big problem.

Super, are you saying that it was impossible for Patsy to have shifted the coverings on Joni enough to have noticed her palms? Or that she was so thoroughly covered her hands couldn't be seen? Are you suggesting that she wasn't carried, at least part way, to see her? That she didn't place her cheek on her cheek, noticing it was cold to the touch?

 

[WHITEFANG]

"That murderer" did not have anything to do with this horror. That murderer's mental illness has EVERYTHING to do with this horror, in my opinion.

We see murders committed everyday by both mothers and fathers whose signs of mental illness were ignored or minimalized by people who thought it could NEVER get bad enough to lead to murder.

I have changed my life to care for a granddaughter. Her mother is exceptionally bright, creative, fun, charming, kind, compassionate, etc., except when she is stressed, and then her mental illness makes it dangerous for my granddaughter to be left in her care.

We could just ignore this and act as though it doesn't happen because no one ever sees these actions in public. Her close friends are not around when the worst behaviors happen. However, she is in the care of highly qualified psychiatrists, and they tell us to be vigilant and not leave her alone with her child when she is stressed.

Otherwise, she is the picture of the perfect mother. In public. KWIM?

Patsy's mental illness was ....?