JBR, PR and UMI

[BBB167893]

It's a valid point.

I honestly wonder how many girls haven't experienced 'sexual abuse' of some kind - from simply having a stranger expose themselves right through to actual penetration. I'd expect that many (most?) females (and quite a few males), have been a childhood victim of something between these two extremes.

Excellent question, MurriFlower. Unfortunately, I can't give you any round numbers. Let's look at it this way: I read some stats a few years ago (FBI stats, I think--don't hold me to that yet) that something like 60% of rapes go unreported, and of the ones that ARE, only a fraction of the victims will testify. There are numerous reasons for this. Perhaps most important is the sheer shame of it. A lot of rape victims, as I said, think that it's their fault. It's just too crushing to relive it to the police and in court. It's often said that rape is the only crime where you can be victimized twice, both by the criminal, and by the defense attorney.

And these victims are adult women, presumably in control of their faculties. Just imagine how daunting it must be for a small child. They don't always know it's wrong. Indeed, if the abuser is someone they trust deeply, they may grow to associate it with love. Even if they DO know it's wrong, who do they go to? Plus, children are much easier to control, both through bribes and fear. And most of them want only to please adults, which exacerbates the other problems.

Pretty children of both genders are probably more at risk than plain children.

In this particular instance, you have a child who is IDEAL for a molester: beautiful, charming, and trained to obey adults.

The inference that JBR was abused previously is therefore not surprising. It doesn't automatically mean though, that it was her father, because there were plenty of other males who had access to the child. As we've previously discussed, this may not have been confined to males either.

You're right on all counts.

Was her mother also abused? Possibly. Would this have led to the child being 'blamed' and then punished? I wouldn't have thought so.

Most people wouldn't think so. Unfortunately, that reaction is fairly common among mothers of abused children. One of the best known examples is former Miss America and CO native Marilyn Van Derbur. She was molested by her father. When she worked up the nerve to tell her mother, her mother punished her for being a liar.

PR (if she was a victim also) would have been more likely IMO to have sought to achieve the 'justice' for JBR that she may have been denied (or was too scared/embarrassed to tell).

Well, you could go the opposite way, too. What you say might be true, IF PR believed her. But if PR had suppressed the memory, then this would be like a slap in the face, because it would suggest that she (PR) had made the same mistake her own mother made. And as far as that goes, she might go into denial, choosing to believe that JonBenet was lying, like Marilyn's mother.

This is why I doubt that PR was herself a victim, because she seemed totally 'clueless' about security/safety and supervision of the children.

Well, that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it would be that PR may have been in denial. Maybe she figured she'd left "that" behind.

I'm not saying you're wrong, MurriFlower. I'm ruminating for thoughts on this subject, and you're giving some very good ones.

For example, when "Mr Mom" was taking care of the children for the weekend while she and PW went shopping. If abused, PR would have found any excuse NOT to leave the kids alone with a man. Ditto for her father babysitting them. McSanta would have rung alarm bells - his obsession with JBR was like a flashing warning sign.

Well, it's funny you say that, because in 2000, PR was asked if she ever entertained the thought that JR was molesting JB during her cancer treatments. She said she HAD, but she dismissed it. Her reasoning is very odd, though. Her basis for dismissing the idea was not any faith in her husband, but because her mother was sleeping in the same room. A less trusting person (such as myself) could drive a tractor-trailer through the holes in that logic.

I think also if PR was abused, she would not have allowed (let alone encouraged) JBR to compete in the pageants. So, I therefore believe that PR was probably NOT abused herself as a child, otherwise she would have been more in tune with the dangers to her own daughter.

Hmm. An interesting point.

As far as the sexual abuse that occurred at the time that JBR was killed, it appears that there was 'digital' penetration and perhaps an 'object' (broken stick). There was enough violence to have caused bleeding, so it was not insignificant (as NP described), however, given the extreme violence of her death (bash and strangle) the sexual assault seems comparitively minor.

Compared to virtually EVERY other sexual assault on a child, it was minor, MurriFlower. That's one of the points that the FBI made early on in this case. Never mind her other injuries. Even live victims are torn up a lot worse.

MurriFlower, I have to say, this has been an excellent conversation.

 

[DeeDee249]

I maintain that fibers and hairs that have not been sourced CANNOT be ruled out as coming from items in the home. Let's fact it, they did NOT seal up that house with shrink wrap. Patsy had fur coats (including one that she allegedly wore out of he house that night) as well as fur trimmed boots. I don't recall seeing that either was tested against the fun found on JB. Paintbrushes also have fur. We already know that items from the paint tote were used in the crime.
Anything that is UN-sourced is just that- unsourced. That mean it isn't known where it came from and could very well have been from an item in the home.

 

[BBB167893]

The suggestion that her own father abused both daughter and granddaughter is possible, but if so, this would have had nothing to do with the murder.

Maybe not directly. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that JB was molested by someone close to her and it slipped out that night. PR, if she were a victim herself, may have thought of herself as "past" it. She had a good life. News like that would destroy that edifice she built for herself. Thus, is it that hard to imagine PR in a rage over such "filthy lies?"

Unlikely that even RDI would suggest PR would have had a 'rage attack' two days after!

You're right. At least this one is not.

The grandparents were now supposed to go on TV radio or a magazine article and ask for justice??

If it were MY granddaughter, you couldn't DRAG me away!

Why would they, when the parents were criticised by RDI for EXACTLY doing this? They did it too soon, not soon enough, too much, too little, not for long enough, answered wrong, were coached!!

That comparison is apples and handgrenades. The Rs were criticized for talking to the media INSTEAD of talking to the cops when it counted. I'd EXPECT the granddparents to raise a godawful fuss!

 

[claudicici]

I think IF JB was molested by her grandfather PR would have suspected it for awhile.
Maybe she did find out for sure during the christmas party and dialed 911 but changed her mind.What was she going to say? I believe at that point the fantasizing about JB's grand exit could have started.Seeing her as the doll in the coffin,not wanting to let her go through what Patsy had gone through herself any longer,reuiniting with her after death etc

 

[MurriFlower]

I think IF JB was molested by her grandfather PR would have suspected it for awhile.
Maybe she did find out for sure during the christmas party and dialed 911 but changed her mind.What was she going to say? I believe at that point the fantasizing about JB's grand exit could have started.Seeing her as the doll in the coffin,not wanting to let her go through what Patsy had gone through herself any longer,reuiniting with her after death etc

Claudicici, you should stand back and look at yourself from where I'm standing.

 

[claudicici]

I believe you think an IDI...but your last post makes it seem like you are not just discussing your theories but rather that you have personal reasons to be hurt when someone mentions anything negative about the possible involvement of any of the R's.If you are friend or family I apologize because I can understand how that would hurt someone close to them....but until this crime is solved we can theorize about anyone.If it was an unknown intruder he or she has family and friends as well that would never ever want to believe so and so did this.There is no black and white only grey areas..so that's where I THINK you are standing....now looking at me from where I think you are standing I would be hurt if you are implicating my friends and family and I would not read on a board where everyone has a different opinion....if that would upset me or hurt my feelings I would not read here.....if I'm wrong about where you stand then I have no clue why opinions that are different from yours would bother you.

 

[BBB167893]

I think IF JB was molested by her grandfather PR would have suspected it for awhile.
Maybe she did find out for sure during the christmas party and dialed 911 but changed her mind.What was she going to say? I believe at that point the fantasizing about JB's grand exit could have started.Seeing her as the doll in the coffin,not wanting to let her go through what Patsy had gone through herself any longer,reuiniting with her after death etc

Just to touch on this for a moment, and at the risk of inviting considerable heat onto myself, I've sometimes heard this idea: that PR killed her to "save" her and to preserve her as pure in memory.

 

[DeeDee249]

Unfortunately, you'll find there are some people here who are bothered by other people's opinions and theories when they differ from their own. And they can be very cranky about it and they make personal attacks instead of simply disagreeing.
I feel that different opinions are useful- they view the crime from a different perspective and point out things I might not think about. Whoever is right, all opinions have some value. And the way I see it, with varied theories, as least SOME of us are right!

 

[UKGuy]

I think IF JB was molested by her grandfather PR would have suspected it for awhile.
Maybe she did find out for sure during the christmas party and dialed 911 but changed her mind.What was she going to say? I believe at that point the fantasizing about JB's grand exit could have started.Seeing her as the doll in the coffin,not wanting to let her go through what Patsy had gone through herself any longer,reuiniting with her after death etc

claudicici,
Entirely possible. Don Paugh was involved in JonBenet's pageants, he suggested songs for her to dance to, who knows some of her pageant personae may have been based on Don Paugh's preference for 40's female stereotypes? I've always assumed Don Paugh played some kind of a role in Patsy's pageant career. As some have already mention the shutters went up in Paugh household after the death of JonBenet. Don Paugh felt insecure enough to make sure he had a firearm close at hand when dealing with extended Ramsey family friends.


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[MurriFlower]

claudicici,
Entirely possible. Don Paugh was involved in JonBenet's pageants, he suggested songs for her to dance to, who knows some of her pageant personae may have been based on Don Paugh's preference for 40's female stereotypes? I've always assumed Don Paugh played some kind of a role in Patsy's pageant career. As some have already mention the shutters went up in Paugh household after the death of JonBenet. Don Paugh felt insecure enough to make sure he had a firearm close at hand when dealing with extended Ramsey family friends.

I've never read about DP having an interest in JBR's pageants or suggesting songs etc. Can you tell me where you read this, as I'd like to read it for myself?

 

[DeeDee249]

I've never read about DP having an interest in JBR's pageants or suggesting songs etc. Can you tell me where you read this, as I'd like to read it for myself?

Actually, I'd like to see that, too. I'd never read that either.

 

[UKGuy]

Actually, I'd like to see that, too. I'd never read that either.

DeeDee249,

Maybe I'll get around to publishing it all. It comprises of not just one but many quotes and references across various interviews and statements e.g. Judith Philps and her texas remarks inferring abuse. That in the early days Don Paugh had easy access to the Ramsey household, some have suggested John was indebted to Don Paugh. There are references that Don Paugh accompanied Nedra and Patsy to various pageants, that songs from his record collection were chosen as backing audio themes to her dances. So he was there.

Don Paugh's music:

Westminster, Colorado
Spring 1996

Dancing Lessons
Kit Andre Dancing Lessons at Kit Andre's dance studio, Westminster, Colorado

"Spring of 1996, Pam Griffin telephoned Kit Andre" "Kit had danced in the Broadway companies of Hello, Dolly! and Peter Pan and had ballet credits in Paris and London, including a featured role under Dame Margot Fonteyn." - "She'd [Patsy] brought an audiotape of music "I Want to Be a Cowboy's Sweetheart." [PMPTpg98sb]

The following year in 1996, JonBenét participated in a few more pageants, and won Miss Sunburst Colorado in one of them, which enabled her to go to national three-day Sunburst Pageant in Atlanta during the summer of 1996. JonBenét knew that would be extra fun because Grandma and Grandpa and Aunt Pam and Aunt Polly would all be there.

Remember all that stuff about JonBenet deciding she wanted to be a pageant star after she read an advert?

In the summer of 1994 while in Charlevoix Michigan, Patsy noticed an ad in the Charlevoix newspaper promoting an upcoming Miss Charlevoix contest for girls of all ages. The two day event was to be held at the East Jordan High School over the Fourth of July weekend. The event sounded tailor made for JonBenét. The pageant had a patriotic theme since it was held over the Fourth. When Patsy and JonBenét arrived, they learned that there were only two other girls in JonBenet’s age group. Patsy remembers JonBenét marching around the stage while waving a little flag amidst twinkling red, white, and blue lights while the emcee sang “Proud to be an American.” JonBenét was proud to be part of the show with all the bigger girls. And Patsy was proud of her. JonBenét was just beaming. JonBenét won the title of Little Miss Charlevoix, and now she was all fired up to do it again.

Don Paugh

In JonBenét’s preschool class, they always celebrated summer birthdays by selecting a day near the end of May and making that day a special celebration, since school would be out on their real birthdays. JonBenét was able to bring cupcakes, refreshments, and go through the whole school birthday celebration that first year of school when she was approaching six years old. And before we left for Charlevoix, the Ramsey’s always had a birthday party for her friends at the Ramsey’s home in Boulder. Of course, when they went to Atlanta, there was another celebration with Grandma and Grandpa and all of their Georgia friends. They had so many birthday celebrations that JonBenét had gotten confused about how old she was, assuming that every birthday party added a year to her age. At five, she had thought she must be at least eight years old!

DOI
Lights of December Parade 1993

"Burke's Boy Scout troop wanted to participate, so Patsy came up with a design for a float. Her father, Don Paugh, and Adam Schneider went out to our airplane hangar and went about building the float." "Don wired the float so that music played as the kids marched down the street. JonBenet begged to ride with them on the float but wasn't old enough yet."

There are many many references to the role that Don Paugh played in JonBenet's life. If all you do is read the popular books then to a large extent his role is airbrushed out e.g. there is no mention he attended some of JonBenet pageants, and that he had access to JonBenet from and early age, such a profile is possible, but requires a lot of digging.

And of course there is the Boulder Parade of Lights at Christmas where Don Paugh took a particular interest in assisting JonBenet, but then on Dec 24. 1996 Donald Paugh left Boulder on "standby" flying to Georgia mmm!

Quote from Nedra:

"I made several trips to Boulder that last month. One was for the Boulder Parade of Lights that JonBenet rode in. It was cold. I didn't go to John and Patsy's Christmas party, because I was in Roswell. Don, my husband, was there and flew back standby on the 24th so we could spend Christmas Eve together." [Nedra Paugh, PMPTpg255sb]

Some people have suggested that JonBenet ate the pineapple prior to the White's party, and some have also suggested that her internal enlargement may have preceded the White's party also, that is digital penetration may have been what had been troubling JonBenet in the run up to Christmas with her resumed bedwetting, visits to the doctor, arguements with Patsy, 911 call, not pretty remarks, etc etc.

My guess is that Patsy did not miss all those signs and did know, but never acted on it, because it was not something foreign to her?


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[DeeDee249]

The stretching of her vagina, seen at autopsy, can't be "dated" in the sense of being able to indicate when, and how often, it happened.
But the pineapple is a matter of forensics. It was eaten approx. 2 hours before she died, and she died approx. midnight-1 AM.

 

[UKGuy]

The stretching of her vagina, seen at autopsy, can't be "dated" in the sense of being able to indicate when, and how often, it happened.
But the pineapple is a matter of forensics. It was eaten approx. 2 hours before she died, and she died approx. midnight-1 AM.

DeeDee249

The stretching of her vagina, seen at autopsy, can't be "dated" in the sense of being able to indicate when, and how often, it happened.

No prior alleged abuse can be dated unless a doctors visit confirms subsequent findings. As you are aware digital penetration and sexual contact need not be confined to the time of JonBenet's death.


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[BBB167893]

I see that people are willing to talk about this. Perhaps LinasK should join in. She's experienced this horror firsthand. She could fill in a lot of the gaps.

 

[UKGuy]

I see that people are willing to talk about this. Perhaps LinasK should join in. She's experienced this horror firsthand. She could fill in a lot of the gaps.

SuperDave

A RDI that starts with prior molestation is pretty much on the right track, since one failure among many of the IDI is why bother hiding JonBenet's sexual assault, or even redressing her at all, particularly in size-12's?

Also as I have mentioned before if it was all an accident why not dial 911, it may save your daughters life? They took JonBenet straight to hospital when Burke accidently whacked her with a golf-club.

John may not have know anything about JonBenet being molested, maybe he was simply caught up in a web of deceit. And realizing the implications of JonBenet's staged sexual assault he proceeded to hide it knowing full well the consequences if law enforcement discovered JonBenet nude, and sexually assaulted.

As I have suggested many times before, maybe it was a Paugh thing, a familial issue, baggage from Patsy's childhood, with JonBenet becoming an intergenerational victim.

I reckon the paughs are the missing piece of the jigsaw!

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[BBB167893]

SuperDave

A RDI that starts with prior molestation is pretty much on the right track, since one failure among many of the IDI is why bother hiding JonBenet's sexual assault, or even redressing her at all, particularly in size-12's?

Also as I have mentioned before if it was all an accident why not dial 911, it may save your daughters life? They took JonBenet straight to hospital when Burke accidently whacked her with a golf-club.

John may not have know anything about JonBenet being molested, maybe he was simply caught up in a web of deceit. And realizing the implications of JonBenet's staged sexual assault he proceeded to hide it knowing full well the consequences if law enforcement discovered JonBenet nude, and sexually assaulted.

As I have suggested many times before, maybe it was a Paugh thing, a familial issue, baggage from Patsy's childhood, with JonBenet becoming an intergenerational victim.

I reckon the paughs are the missing piece of the jigsaw!

.

I think you've hit on some excellent stuff, UKGuy. But let's take it a step at a time, okay?

 

[Frigga]

Patsy's mental illness was ....?

...undiagnosed!

 

[BBB167893]

Maybe you can. Everyone bear with me here. I'm glad this issue came up. It's a big part of why I started this thread to begin with.

I think I had best come clean about something. I wouldn't have started a thread involving Patsy and mental illness if I didn't think that she had issues. But that does NOT mean that I'm not sympathetic. As anyone who reads the original post can see, I did it with the very noblest of intentions. There's a big difference between seeing someone as disturbed and saying that someone is an "evil psycho."

I make no bones about the fact that I believe that Patsy Ramsey was a deeply troubled woman. This thread and "Loved to Death" are my attempts to illustrate that belief. BUT I am NOT trying to paint her as some kind of monster. I'm doing everything I possibly can to convey how much deep sympathy I have for her, even if she is guilty. Far as I go, this case is a tragedy right across the board.

I've stated just now that I believe Patsy was disturbed. There are several reasons for that belief. I don't think that she had a very nurturing childhood. From what I know of her mother, Nedra, she seems like a very controlling, dominating woman, possibly cold. Judging from her adamant statement that JB would do the pageants, it's clear she wasn't leaving any room for argument. Nedra struck me as the kind of mother who demanded nothing but the best from her daughters and would not tolerate anything less.

It's possible Patsy's parents were abusive, maybe physically (although back then the definition of abuse was far less elastic than it is today), more likely emotionally. There is also the chance that PR was sexually abused herself. I admit, I have no concrete proof of that, but I've learned to trust my gut feelings. If you observe her in that interview with Tom Haney, when he asks her if she or her sisters were abused, her demeanor changes dramatically. She becomes small and quiet, like a child in fear of punishment. Her voice is barely audible. She appears to be frightened. You really have to ask: when she said "no" to that question, was she trying to convince Haney or herself? There's also the issue of Patsy's sister Pam. As my own mother pointed out in her own matter-of-fact way, "I'll bet they were. Why do you think Pam let her body go so much, never got married and never had kids?" I have to admit, that got my mind going. Moreover, the idea that Patsy was sexually abused is NOT exclusive to RDI; not by a DAMN sight. I've spoken to many IDIs in my time and there are some (how many exactly I don't know) that think the exact same thing.

If my idea about Nedra is true, it puts a whole new light on JB's pageant participation.

There, as we all know, are many types and forms of abuse. I feel there was an intense emotional/psychological abuse taking place and thats just a start. PR, shows classic signs of sexual abuse. He need for control, because she wasn't in control of her own body as a child. The biggest house in her neighborhood, she wasn't the smallest anymore. She married an older man. PR, had the ability to distance herself from, pain, grief and remorse, learned while laying there pretending to be somewhere else, someon else, and she was doing something else. I could go on but you get the idea, I see this abuse in PR and I haven't even touched on the abuse doled out by Nedra, and that was psychological. Combine the two and its really quite disturbing, PR was fractured in two, basically two people. Like her house what you see up front is one thing. Whats underneath is another. JR, is an abuser. In case you didn't know this HOTYH, most of your serial killers and truly disturbed individuals are quiet thinkers. Loners "hence" the flying, how much more alone can it get? They are usually highly intelligent and quite often successful. Most of your truly sick characters, live right next door and go undetected for years if they are ever caught, for exactly the reason that they are so normal. JR, was mind boinking his wife. I'll refer to Betty Broderick (read about her case, google it with mental abuse added too her name) Her husband like JR played his wife. She was the loaded gun, he was the trigger and when he pulled, it backfired

There you go, Agatha!

 

[Agatha_C]

Thank you, let me give it a read and see how I can help...