Jian Ghomeshi, well known, well respected radio host fired for Sexual Assault

[otto]

What's not true, seattlechiquita? I wasn't speaking about you personally. Many of the opinions I've read in the last few days are in disbelief and contempt that a true victim would act the way these two witnesses have. MOO

ETA: And I'm certainly not just talking about on here.

This isn't a case of contempt for a victim, or domestic violence. It is a case of three women alleging that they did not consent to an act of violence during a date. The victim that testified today claims she was assaulted. She did not leave Ghomeshi's home after the alleged assault, rather she spent the weekend with the perpetrator. She sent him flowers after the weekend to thank him for the time they spent together. She followed with racy email, a love letter, and invitation for a sexual relationship.

Ghomeshi claims there was consent. He did not pursue further contact with her. At what point should he have known that she did not consent?

Both victims who have testified so far withheld information from police. Both pursued a relationship with Ghomeshi after the time that they allege they did not consent to his actions. If police had been given all the facts at the time of the complaint, would they have laid charges?

 

[redheart]

I completely disagree. This entire website is about trying to understand human behavior, and it houses some of the most compassionate and empathetic people I have ever known --- most times even more compassionate that I would ever be.

In this particular case however, the Crown's witnesses are not helping their own case, and JG's defense attorney is destroying them. I am not saying they were not assaulted by this a-hole. I believe they were. But their testimony in court is what the Judge will take into account. Not his/her (?) own feelings about them, or about JG.

And, about walking a mile in someone's shoes, I was a bused for years. Brutally abused. And I stayed. So I can understand the victims here just fine. But it doesn't change the fact that their testimony is being shredded like cheese. And it is sad.

Actually, I said:

Yes. Thank you. As someone who has walked a mile in similar fitting shoes as these two witnesses, being assaulted by someone can elicit responses that don't make sense to many people, even including yourself. Especially if you've already been conditioned by previous abuse.

Not many people even try to understand that or have compassion, as evidenced by this thread and the general public's response.

Since the witnesses' testimonies this week there have not been a lot of posts on this thread, but there has been much discussion in other media. Many people, including some on here, have nothing but contempt and disbelief for the two witnesses. I'm sorry you are so offended by me not qualifying that it is only some on Websleuths and many elsewhere. My earlier statement was not directed at you by any means and I'm not sure why you are so personally offended by it. There is absolutely no need to badger me for stating my opinion.

 

[otto]

Actually, I said:

Since the witnesses' testimonies this week there have not been a lot of posts on this thread, but there has been much discussion in other media. Many people, including some on here, have nothing but contempt and disbelief for the two witnesses. I'm sorry you are so offended by me not qualifying that it is only some on Websleuths and many elsewhere. My earlier statement was not directed at you by any means and I'm not sure why you are so personally offended by it. There is absolutely no need to badger me for stating my opinion.

There has to be clear evidence that the women did not consent. It's possible that they did not consent, but how could Ghomeshi know that? Clearly both witnesses tried to seduce him after the alleged assault. How can a Judge be confident that the witnesses did not consent when both continued to pursue a relationship with him?

 

[bluesneakers]

Untrue. I believe the victims. I believe Jian Gnomeshi is a predatory a-hole. But if I had to go by evidence presented so far, the Crown's case is not looking strong.

What is untrue? There are posts in this thread that show a lack of compassion, and anywhere you go on the internet will provide lots of examples. It's everywhere.

For instance.
[video=twitter;695624683128020992]https://twitter.com/JesseBrown/status/695624683128020992[/video]

 

[eucalyptuz]

Jian Ghomeshi: CBC superstar, dreamy-voiced, compassionate reporter. Attractive, suave, experienced, rich.
Victims: attracted to JG and suddenly there's an aberration to his behavior/facade. They think 'perhaps it's a one-off/bad night/drug reaction...whatever...he's oh, so eligible otherwise and are prepared to excuse, forgive. They decide to give him a 2nd chance, the benefit of the doubt...BUT(and it's a BIG but) in no way consenting to abuse or inviting abuse! It's all about consent folks. The people that play this game know the rules. Consent!

 

[otto]

Jian Ghomeshi: CBC superstar, dreamy-voiced, compassionate reporter. Attractive, suave, experienced, rich.
Victims: attracted to JG and suddenly there's an aberration to his behavior/facade. They think 'perhaps it's a one-off/bad night/drug reaction...whatever...he's oh, so eligible otherwise and are prepared to excuse, forgive. They decide to give him a 2nd chance, the benefit of the doubt...BUT(and it's a BIG but) in no way consenting to abuse or inviting abuse! It's all about consent folks. The people that play this game know the rules. Consent!

Why are women willing to give important, powerful men a second chance after they have seen a clear example of abuse and they are not yet in a relationship? Do they naively believe that they can change the abuser's behaviour? Are they conflicted between an attraction to the charm and the excitement of danger?

 

[eucalyptuz]

Why are women willing to give important, powerful men a second chance after they have seen a clear example of abuse and they are not yet in a relationship? Do they naively believe that they can change the abuser's behaviour? Are they conflicted between an attraction to the charm and the excitement of danger?

In Jian's case, I believe the women were prepared to give him a second chance because his violent behavior was in direct contrast to his on-air, on-screen persona.
I was a Jian fan, I'll admit it. We (and I think I speak for most Canadians and many overseas) felt like we knew the guy. He was sensitive and charismatic and he stood up to the bullying Billy Bob Thornton with such graceful aplomb. He was gentle and seemed genuine. With his on-air guests, he asked the questions we all wanted to ask. We thought we knew him and the kind of guy he was, and we liked him.

When the first accusation against him came out years ago by a wannabe journalist, well, it just smacked of attention-seeking sensationalism and the possible financial gain of hush-money. Even in her account she seemed to encourage him after she sensed something "off". It is a real shame that this account fell on deaf ears because of its 'teen fiction' quality. Of course, later the flood gates opened and her voice was one of many.
Disbelief and heartbreak.

So no, I don't think the victims do believe that they can change the abuser's behavior... - I think they see the behavior as an aberration to the norm -'Jian, the good guy'.

Of course this is just my take on the mindset of the victims (personally I would have run a mile at the first not-so-gentle tug of my hair).

 

[dotr]

VIDEO: Sexual violence expert says ‘witnesses are put on trial’ in cases like Jian Ghomeshi

The Jian Ghomeshi trial has sparked a lot of conversations about the credibility of the alleged victims. Ryerson’s Sexual Violence expert Farrah Khan explains the complicated relationships victims often have with their abuser.

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/02/05/v...are-put-on-trial-in-cases-like-jian-ghomeshi/

 

[dotr]

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/02/06/what-accusers-forget-jian-ghomeshi-remembers-menon.html

But this is no longer exclusively about what these women remember. It’s now also about what Ghomeshi remembers. As Henein unleashes her Hollywood theatrics, striding across the courtroom in heels that thump ominously, like a hungry T-Rex, what she is really doing is navigating both sides of this adversarial memory bank. She is using discovery as her GPS and Ghomeshi’s version of events as her destination.

This is a luxury the Crown does not have.

Which is not to say Ghomeshi is headed toward an acquittal. The central allegations so far — that Ghomeshi punched the first complainant three times in the head and yanked on her hair, that he choked and slapped DeCoutere — are still standing like flagpoles, albeit flagpoles in a hurricane of reasonable doubt.

 

[dotr]

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...e-carefully-crafted-branding-experts-say.html
Jian Ghomeshi’s every move carefully crafted, branding experts say
From his clothes to having his mother walk him out, Ghomeshi is creating an image of a meek, quiet person, experts say.

“He was the like the golden child of the CBC… it took less than a week to literally go from superstar to the most hated man in Canada,” Pallen said.

Pallen and other experts think part of Ghomeshi’s and his counsel’s strategy is regaining that reputation and respect. People’s perception is just as important as any eventual verdict, Pallen said.

There’s a lot of danger for Ghomeshi too, Pallen added. One wrong word or facial expression, if caught by cameras, could cement any bad impression the public have right now, he said.

“People are watching every millimetre, every millisecond of his movement,” he said.

It’s part of why Pallen thinks Ghomeshi has been subdued and quiet in court, and letting his lawyers take the lead.

“There’s absolutely nothing he can say or do that would make this situation better, other than to retreat [and] completely disappear,” he said.

In Ghomeshi’s case, everything from attitude to his clothing – white shirt, dark clothes, to blend into the background – is tailored to make him seem meek and remorseful, Bishop said.

“He’s a very good-looking man with a presence, and they’re playing this down as much as they can to make him look as much like an ordinary person as possible,” she said.

Also a conscious decision was the choice to be surrounded by women during the trial, from his lawyer Marie Henein to his mother who walks him out at the end of every day.

“It’s absolutely a deliberate attempt to make him look like… obviously women are important to him,” she said.

 

[dotr]

The emails sent by LC to JG seem more passive-aggressive, than flirtatious or sexual, imo.
Thinking she was hurt, angry, and totally confused and sent emails in a misguided attempt to regain control , and hit him.
As for " loving " his hands?
Not the kind of compliment a man usually desires or receives ...
Hands are powerful. Especially when wrapped around someone's throat- one may hate what they (allegedly) did, but if they stop and let you continue to breathe, well those very same hands might seem lovable.
speculation, imo.
rbbm.
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/02/05/more-bombshells-from-ghomeshi-defence

Just hours after the alleged assault, DeCoutere wrote: “You kicked my last night and that makes me want to f--k your brains out. Tonight.”

She sent him flowers after that supposedly violent date. She wrote a handwritten love letter: “We hooked up for dinner and you totally knocked me out,”

With her final dramatic flourish, Henein asks the witness to read the last line aloud, her sign off to the man she says choked her only days before. It is almost impossible to believe: “I love your hands,” she wrote.

 

[matou]

LD knew those emails would come out and is testifying anyway. She isn't hiding behind a fake twitter account and putting her name out there. He did what he did and she never asked for it. Her flowers and messages could be seen as ironic IMO.

 

[Crosby87]

DeCoutere told police she had no romantic interest in Ghomeshi, yet she asked him if she can tap him on the shoulder for breakfast while they are in Banff, which leads me to believe she wanted to sleep in his bed with him. In her email to JG, she threatened to harm him, beat the crap out of him, and cause trouble for him if he doesn’t do what she wants.

From: Lucy DeCoutere
Reply-To:
Date: Friday, 11 June 2004 11:55:15 -0400 (EDT)
To: You’re in Big Trouble

If I don’t get to hang with you while we are in Banff I’m gonna beat the crap out of you.
I am booked pretty solidly for the days but maybe dinner? Or perhaps I could tap you on the shoulder for breakfast?

 

[Crosby87]

Was Jian Ghomeshi charged with one count of overcoming resistance for choking Lucy DeCoutere?

“DeCoutere alleges that 48-year-old former CBC Radio host started choking and slapping her in the face without warning while they were kissing at his home in the summer of 2003.”

Ghomeshi faces three charges of sexual assault and one count of overcoming resistance by choking. The choking count carries the steepest penalty, with the possibility of years in prison.

A fourth sexual assault charge is the subject of a separate criminal trial due to begin this summer.

I wonder if the person in the video that Jian and his lead lawyer showed CBC Executives, which led to Jian’s dismissal, laid charges against Jian and if it's the case that will be tried separately this summer?

The charges represent accusations by four women so there should be one more witness before this trial wraps up.

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/02/05/t...ss-hot-seat-ghomeshi-trial-racy-emails-photo/

 

[Crosby87]

While she recalled vivid details of the incident when questioned by a Crown prosecutor, Henein accused DeCoutere of omitting key details when talking to the police. Now she says she’s revealed new details as recently as Thursday.

Henein asked why DeCoutere hadn’t told police about some emails she exchanged with Ghomeshi after she alleges he assaulted her, noting the actress only disclosed them to the Crown on Thursday, after the first complainant to testify at the trial was confronted with her own emails to Ghomeshi sent 18 months after her separate alleged assaults.

“I didn’t understand the importance of after-contact incidents,” DeCoutere explained.

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/02/05/t...ss-hot-seat-ghomeshi-trial-racy-emails-photo/

 

[Ardy]

Other than their word.......based on their credibility, what proof is there that Ghomeshi is guilty ?

None...........no physical evidence, no witnesses, nothing to collaborate their story and that is why their conduct following the events is so important.

Besides their conduct, they repeatedly lied to the police, television interviewers, the Crown and the Judge during the trial ?

Ghomeshi faces a life sentence in prison and the complainants credibility matters, despite whatever theories women advocates may advance.

 

[Ardy]

LD knew those emails would come out and is testifying anyway. She isn't hiding behind a fake twitter account and putting her name out there. He did what he did and she never asked for it. Her flowers and messages could be seen as ironic IMO.

Actually no she didn't know they would be revealed.

The defense lawyer trapped her into testifying before the Judge that she had "absolutely no contact" with Ghomeshi after the alleged assaults, and then produced the emails that DeCoutere had not told the police or Crown about and had just denied in court only moments before. It was a bombshell admission in the courtroom.

In short, she lied and she knew she was lying. Her explanations are trying to cover up for her lies to the court. What else can she say after being caught in the lies ?

She has a Masters Degree in Education, is a Captain in the Air Force, and is financially independent. She is an intelligent and aggressive woman............make no mistake about that.

She knew exactly what she was doing, and emailed a friend she was looking forward to court as "great theatre". She thought she could act her way through it.

To me, it looks like she is the jilted lover and social climber who got angry with Ghomeshi's indifference to her and decided to join in the trial to get even with him.

There is still another complainant in this trial and Ghomeshi faces another trial in the future. I am not saying he didn't commit an assault on anyone, just that I don't believe he did on DeCoutere.

I have nothing against sending abusive men to prison, but we should do everything we can to make sure they are guilty first.

If evidence and credibility don't matter, we might as well dispense with courts and trials and just have the police arrest the accused and drive them straight to prison.

 

[bluesneakers]

While she recalled vivid details of the incident when questioned by a Crown prosecutor, Henein accused DeCoutere of omitting key details when talking to the police. Now she says she’s revealed new details as recently as Thursday.

Henein asked why DeCoutere hadn’t told police about some emails she exchanged with Ghomeshi after she alleges he assaulted her, noting the actress only disclosed them to the Crown on Thursday, after the first complainant to testify at the trial was confronted with her own emails to Ghomeshi sent 18 months after her separate alleged assaults.

“I didn’t understand the importance of after-contact incidents,” DeCoutere explained.

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/02/05/t...ss-hot-seat-ghomeshi-trial-racy-emails-photo/

She makes a good point. They shouldn't matter.

 

[otto]

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/02/05/v...are-put-on-trial-in-cases-like-jian-ghomeshi/

The expert comments about how the credibility of the witness is questioned; that their credibility is "on trial" (per the expert). That is true of all criminal trials, where the credibility of witnesses to a criminal act is put into question by the defence or the prosecution (depending on the nature of the witness). The fact that these witnesses are victims should not mean that their credibility is not questioned. They are afforded anonymity, but credibility is not a given in any trial.

 

[otto]

The emails sent by LC to JG seem more passive-aggressive, than flirtatious or sexual, imo.
Thinking she was hurt, angry, and totally confused and sent emails in a misguided attempt to regain control , and hit him.
As for " loving " his hands?
Not the kind of compliment a man usually desires or receives ...
Hands are powerful. Especially when wrapped around someone's throat- one may hate what they (allegedly) did, but if they stop and let you continue to breathe, well those very same hands might seem lovable.
speculation, imo.
rbbm.
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/02/05/more-bombshells-from-ghomeshi-defence[/B]

I got the impression that Lucy wants the court to believe that she was engaging in mind games with Ghomeshi after the alleged assault. In my humble opinion, a Captain in the Air Force should have more intellectual discipline than to play mind games with an abuser. Either she should have reported the assault through the proper channels, or she should have walked away, but mind games and sexual playfulness with someone she believes is a violent man ... something doesn't add up.