Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[RealityMan]

It doesn't matter what makes sense. You use scientific evidence to determine crime scenes. Not what the investigator would think would make sense. That's not how cases are done. There are many crime scenes that don't make sense at all and are still surprising after extensive analysis or even the criminal admitting what happened.

I don't agree. While the ME did give his opinion as to what he felt was the most probable sequence of events in view of his final report--specifically that he did not think TA could have defended himself from the knife attack after suffering the bullet wound to his head--the ME's testimony and final report did not completely rule out other possibilities.

In my opinion, the other possibilities become more probable when the injuries are viewed in light of what must have transpired at the crime scene in view of the photographic evidence. I don't believe the ME tried to reconcile his opinion with the crime scene reconstruction.

His opinion is at least inconsistent with the opinions of Detective Flores and other crime scene reconstruction experts, like Beasley.

 

[molly333]

I don't believe her story about the argument because she is such a liar. Travis didn't threaten to kill her when she messed up the BMW, when she slashed his tires, when she followed him on dates, etc. She stayed in his house for free, ate his food, etc. He picked her up at work and did all kinds of things to help her out. Since he had spent thousands of dollars on her, the only way I could see him getting THAT upset would be if he had been getting ready to go to the airport to go to Cancun, the camera was broken, and he had to take the trip without a camera. The trip wasn't until the 10th, though. Jodi was supposedly making payments on the car. Why couldn't she pay back the money for the camera if she had broken it? I don't think Jodi and Travis had time to get into an argument and then Jodi have enough time left to do all the stabbing, shooting, dragging, etc.

I know that Gabby Giffords was shot with a higher-powered gun, but does anyone remember if she was able to move around after her shooting or if she was immediately incapacitated? Would Gabby have been able to run away from the guy who shot her? Dr. Horn's explanation sounds correct, but as some on here have said, Jodi pointing a gun at Travis in the shower makes more sense.

I heard that Gabby Giffords was talking to her aid the whole time until the ambulance came.

There was no reason for her to move. He was holding her from behind and comforting her.

 

[RealityMan]

We do not know that. It could have been moving with Travis. We know Jodi had to have had the gun and the knife to accomplish what she did in such a short time. jmo

It appears JA still had the camera in her right hand when she accidentally snapped the bathroom ceiling shot. That's just 62 seconds before she has inflicted all of the knife wounds.

In the bleeding shot, the camera is still in the same location as JA's right hand would be. I think she's still holding it.

 

[molly333]

It appears JA still had the camera in her right hand when she accidentally snapped the bathroom ceiling shot. That's just 62 seconds before she has inflicted all of the knife wounds.

In the bleeding shot, the camera is still in the same location as JA's right hand would be. I think she's still holding it.

wow. You mean taking pictures on purpose?

That's about as cold blooded as it gets.

 

[LambChop]

Well, don't forget, no one believes the running through the closet story. So that saves about 45 seconds right there.

Plenty of time to shoot him first, get the knife, and then the knife wounds--if the knife was close by.

I agree, she said to him what she says he said to her.

IMO

Problem is the ME said Travis was not shot first regardless of what we might believe. The ME is the one who visits the scene, does the autopsy put the reports together and makes a determination. One of the reasons which is a strong one is that Travis was shot from approximately 2 foot away with a bullet that entered his temple and there is no bruising which would be expected from the impact of that bullet. Bruising appears around the entry wound when blood forms under the skin. That plus the fact that Travis' brain had very little blood which indicated he was possibility already dead when he was shot. That is pretty strong forensic evidence regardless of what we believe happened first. If he were shot first he would have been alive for at least another minute until he bled out which means there would have been bruising in that area of his head from the bullet.

This is what the ME will, again, testify to if he is called for rebuttal which will throw a big wrench into the Jodi's story. We can go back and forth here but one of the last things the jury will probably hear on rebuttal is the ME saying it just did not happen the way Jodi said it did. She already knows her goose is cooked with that story. IMO, she is working on the jury to keep from getting the DP. jmo

 

[LambChop]

It appears JA still had the camera in her right hand when she accidentally snapped the bathroom ceiling shot. That's just 62 seconds before she has inflicted all of the knife wounds.

In the bleeding shot, the camera is still in the same location as JA's right hand would be. I think she's still holding it.

I believe it was mentioned that the camera had to have been on the floor in that picture because it was next to her foot. If she were holding it, it would have been at a different angle. Plus she said it was "inadvertent". jmo

 

[LambChop]

I heard that Gabby Giffords was talking to her aid the whole time until the ambulance came.

There was no reason for her to move. He was holding her from behind and comforting her.

She was in no condition to run after anyone......no one is after a gunshot wound to the head. jmo

 

[molly333]

Problem is the ME said Travis was not shot first regardless of what we might believe. The ME is the one who visits the scene, does the autopsy put the reports together and makes a determination. One of the reasons which is a strong one is that Travis was shot from approximately 2 foot away with a bullet that entered his temple and there is no bruising which would be expected from the impact of that bullet. Bruising appears around the entry wound when blood forms under the skin. That plus the fact that Travis' brain had very little blood which indicated he was possibility already dead when he was shot. That is pretty strong forensic evidence regardless of what we believe happened first. If he were shot first he would have been alive for at least another minute until he bled out which means there would have been bruising in that area of his head from the bullet.

This is what the ME will, again, testify to if he is called for rebuttal which will throw a big wrench into the Jodi's story. We can go back and forth here but one of the last things the jury will probably hear on rebuttal is the ME saying it just did not happen the way Jodi said it did. She already knows her goose is cooked with that story. IMO, she is working on the jury to keep from getting the DP. jmo

Forget the ME. :banghead::banghead:

The ME for whatever reason gave that opinion. It could be argued either way.

If JM is half the lawyer I think he is, he will tell the Jury gunshot first before this is all over.

Because that gives him a slam dunk murder one case.

If he plays around with this knife first business, chances are higher it will be one of the lessor includeds or a hung jury.

IMO

 

[Wolfpack Fan]

It would be nice if one of the HLN programs had a forensic pathologist like Dr. Michael Baden on one night to see if he agrees with Dr. Horn. If he does, he could explain more about why the gun first couldn't have taken place.

It was mentioned earlier today that on "HLN After Dark" Monday night, there will be a model of Travis's bathroom and closet, and they will go through the sequence of events. I figured that someone built this model and they would show "Jodi" running from the bathroom, going down the hall, running into the closet, jumping on the shelf, etc. and timing it. I bet all they have is an outline of each room--the same thing Vinnie and Mike Brooks used a week or two ago. (I have been watching ACC basketball all day, and I can't remember exactly what was said about that HLN program.)

 

[LambChop]

Forget the ME. :banghead::banghead:

The ME for whatever reason gave that opinion. It could be argued either way.

If JM is half the lawyer I think he is, he will tell the Jury gunshot first before this is all over.

Because that gives him a slam dunk murder one case.

If he plays around with this knife first business, chances are higher it will be one of the lessor includeds or a hung jury.

IMO

The ME did not give an opinion in his report. He only gave an opinion during his testimony. What I stated above is fact, not fiction. I do believe JM is more than half the attorney anyone thinks he is and it is clear he will compromise his case just because Jodi wants people to believe she shot Travis first because that is more convenient for her. I think we can all give the jury credit for not being fooled by Jodi's lies, all of them.

I don't think JM plays games with evidence. I think JM deals from the hand the evidence presents him with. And frankly the only one who care about the shot being first is Jodi because she thinks it will get her a lessor charge. If the ME proves the shot was not first Jodi's whole case goes up in smoke.

And Gabby Gifford suffered serious damage to her brain. She has made a remarkable recovery but still has problems with her speech and balance and has many hurdles in front of her. Gun shot wounds to the head typically bring a person down so it is highly doubtful Travis could have endured being shot in the head, stabbed in the chest and stabbed repeatedly 27 times and then was able to make it down to the end of the hallway where Jodi cut his throat. Just not likely this happened with the evidence we have seen so far. jmo

 

[molly333]

It would be nice if one of the HLN programs had a forensic pathologist like Dr. Michael Baden on one night to see if he agrees with Dr. Horn. If he does, he could explain more about why the gun first couldn't have taken place.

It was mentioned earlier today that on "HLN After Dark" Monday night, there will be a model of Travis's bathroom and closet, and they will go through the sequence of events. I figured that someone built this model and they would show "Jodi" running from the bathroom, going down the hall, running into the closet, jumping on the shelf, etc. and timing it. I bet all they have is an outline of each room--the same thing Vinnie and Mike Brooks used a week or two ago. (I have been watching ACC basketball all day, and I can't remember exactly what was said about that HLN program.)

Mark Fuhrman references Dr. Baden's opinion in this video. He says Baden believes the gunshot was first and the gun jammed.

I assume Baden would have seen the autopsy report before he gave his opinion because that is how he usually works.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OclLLrEVbA4

 

[RealityMan]

I believe it was mentioned that the camera had to have been on the floor in that picture because it was next to her foot. If she were holding it, it would have been at a different angle. Plus she said it was "inadvertent". jmo

I didn't hear his testimony myself, but someone said detective Flores stated that the camera was not on the floor, at least in the bathroom ceiling shot.

Also, just by looking at the angle in the last two photos, it does not look like the camera is on the ground. It looks like the camera is either still in JA's right hand or perhaps dangling around her neck. I think she's still holding it. After all, it has been only 62 seconds since she was holding it in the bathroom.

 

[molly333]

The ME did not give an opinion in his report. He only gave an opinion during his testimony. What I stated above is fact, not fiction. I do believe JM is more than half the attorney anyone thinks he is and it is clear he will compromise his case just because Jodi wants people to believe she shot Travis first because that is more convenient for her. I think we can all give the jury credit for not being fooled by Jodi's lies, all of them.

I don't think JM plays games with evidence. I think JM deals from the hand the evidence presents him with. And frankly the only one who care about the shot being first is Jodi because she thinks it will get her a lessor charge. If the ME proves the shot was not first Jodi's whole case goes up in smoke.

And Gabby Gifford suffered serious damage to her brain. She has made a remarkable recovery but still has problems with her speech and balance and has many hurdles in front of her. Gun shot wounds to the head typically bring a person down so it is highly doubtful Travis could have endured being shot in the head, stabbed in the chest and stabbed repeatedly 27 times and then was able to make it down to the end of the hallway where Jodi cut his throat. Just not likely this happened with the evidence we have seen so far. jmo

You might be giving facts but then you are interpreting them. How you interpret them is your opinion. You can see that Dr. Baden disagrees with Dr. Horn using the same facts. I disagree with Dr. Horn using the same facts, for what it's worth [nothing]. Gun first or knife first is a matter of interpretation. And, if you just use the autopsy instead of the totality of facts in this case, you might arrive at the wrong interpretation.

This is a circumstantial case.

Juries don't like subtleties or inconsistencies or choices. They want everything cut and dried and handed to them on a silver platter. Otherwise, you might have reasonable doubt and I don't want to argue what reasonable doubt is but just to say it is a very high standard of proof.

JM is going to do what he's going to do. But, don't think he has this case sewn up, yet. He doesn't. We are not arguing about who killed him. She's admitted she killed him. We are arguing about why she killed him and why she killed him the way she did and that goes to what charge the Jury will finally settle on.

Aside from I don't believe knife first is what happened, it knocks the feet out from under premeditation. Haven't you heard people say that? Why would she steal a gun to kill him, file a police report, have it printed in the papers, drive 1000 miles with it, and then get into a knife fight with a bigger, stronger opponent when she gets there? I don't want you to answer that question, just think about it. Because that is the question the Jury will ask themselves if JM goes with knife first.

IMO

 

[RealityMan]

He could have came out of the shower and been standing in front of the sink before she started attacking.

I don't think JA would set the trap of getting TA in such a vulnerable position in the shower only to let him get up and walk over to the sink area before commencing her attack.

He could have been attacked and then fell towards the sink and JA continued the attack there.

Possibly, but JA had to have been between TA and the sink based on the bathroom ceiling photo. How could he have staggered to the sink area, expirated on the mirror, and then made it all the way down the hallway if JA was continually slashing at him from the moment she struck the initial blow in the shower? I can't see him making it that far or taking that particular path if JA was on him with a knife from the beginning of the 1 minute and 46 second sequence.

How do you know he was standing? The blood splatter expert said the blood was only low on the wall by the sink, a small amount was on the mirror but close to the sink ledge, so I don't know how you conclude that he was standing? There was no blood up high on the wall as if he was standing. Blood can spurt in all different directions. So he may have been standing or he could not be.

Maybe he wasn't standing, but only upright enough to have expirated on the mirror. I think all the experts agree that the splatter on the mirror is expiration from TA.

 

[RealityMan]

Mark Fuhrman references Dr. Baden's opinion in this video. He says Baden believes the gunshot was first and the gun jammed.

I assume Baden would have seen the autopsy report before he gave his opinion because that is how he usually works.

So now we have Dr. Baden, in addition to detectives Flores and Fuhrman and crime scene reconstruction expert Beasley, in disagreement with the ME. Interesting.

 

[RealityMan]

One of the reasons which is a strong one is that Travis was shot from approximately 2 foot away with a bullet that entered his temple and there is no bruising which would be expected from the impact of that bullet. Bruising appears around the entry wound when blood forms under the skin. That plus the fact that Travis' brain had very little blood which indicated he was possibility already dead when he was shot. That is pretty strong forensic evidence regardless of what we believe happened first. If he were shot first he would have been alive for at least another minute until he bled out which means there would have been bruising in that area of his head from the bullet.

I don't remember reading any testimony from the ME regarding this bruising idea. Furthermore, it just doesn't make much sense. I think we can agree that, by the end of the 1 minute and 46 second sequence, TA's throat has been slashed and he has baked out on the floor.

This is not a case where TA was only losing blood from the gunshot wound. In fact, most of the blood was gone from his body very quickly.

Given the circumstances of extremely rapid blood loss, I would be surprised if a gunshot wound sustained first would really look much different than a gunshot wound sustained last.

 

[RATTKATT]

Forget the ME. :banghead::banghead:

The ME for whatever reason gave that opinion. It could be argued either way.

If JM is half the lawyer I think he is, he will tell the Jury gunshot first before this is all over.

Because that gives him a slam dunk murder one case.

If he plays around with this knife first business, chances are higher it will be one of the lessor includeds or a hung jury.

IMO

there is no way Juan would say gunshot first. holy cow! dain't no way

 

[katydid23]

Jodi does not say what happened to the gun and she can't tell JM where the knife was only that Travis did not have it. If Travis were shot he would not be jumping up right away and she had already used up at least half of the time until the moment when the picture was taken with Travis' throat cut. Yet Jodi had time to locate the knife and stab him 29 times and then cut his throat. That is like a stab a second. That is pretty intense for 31 seconds and lets not forget in the picture taken down the hallway, showing that Travis has already had his throat cut.

Time wise there does not seem to have been enough time for all this to have happened in 62 seconds. Just not possible. However, stabbing/shooting him without getting the gun and knife she could have easily stabbed him 29 times and cut his throat in those 62 seconds.

I think it was deliberate that JM mentioned that Jodi also uses the "F" word because I think she was the one to use it that night, not Travis. jmo

BBM

That is what I think JM is going to say. That the ONLY way the events fit into the 62 second timeline is if she entered the bathroom with the gun and the knife, all ready to go. I think she might have had time to go grab a knife if the gun was handy already though. It depends upon how soon after the shooting she began stabbing---if that even came first. [ I go back and forth on that.]

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I believe JA could've been holding the camera in the last two shots. Either that, or the camera is around her neck. It does not look like the camera is on the ground in those photos. And the camera seems to have been moving with JA for the entire 1 minute and 46 second sequence.

The camera is definitely on the floor. The camera witness said so. You can see the floor in the pics. And the pictures were upside down. Why? Because the shutter is on top, and that's how it unintentionally went off, by bumping against the floor.

 

[katydid23]

there is no way Juan would say gunshot first. holy cow! dain't no way

Juan doesn't have to say 'gun first.' Because Jodi is doing that herself.

And he has already gotten her to ADMIT that after she shot him, and he was down, she left and then RETURNED to him with a knife. That in itself ends the self-defense claims. She had no excuse for coming back to that bathroom to stab an incapacitated man, clinging to life.