Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[molly333]

Thanks, I must have missed that thread. But if the shot came last I thought he was already dragged from the hall back into the shower?
Sorry but impossible to keep up with work and all.
Been pondering all that splatter!

It's just been in the last several pages of posts on this thread. The people deducing this would be gunshot first people. If you think the gunshot was last, then forget that deduction.

IMO

 

[pip]

Where was it said that he went into the bathroom to examine the wound? I have not heard that before?

Responding to The Farm: (the quotes are messed up)
That was not my quote, but previous to that I was speculating that if the I was just shot in the face, my first instinct would be to get out of the shower and look in the mirror to see how bad the damage was...like is half my head gone? I think that is what anyone would do, and I think that is what Travis did.

 

[The Farm]

It's just been in the last several pages of posts on this thread. The people deducing this would be gunshot first people. If you think the gunshot was last, then forget that deduction.

IMO

I have had a very busy weekend trying to get things done around here and have just been spot checking so I did not see it. It is amazing how much you can miss on here in just a few hours.
So hard to keep up!

 

[The Farm]

Oh yes, the quotes are backwards.

 

[pip]

Oh yes, the quotes are backwards.

testing...testing....lol

 

[ERRN1313]

Do you agree that with the entry point and trajectory that it likely caused damage to his right eye? Possibly even disturbed the optic nerves and caused visual disturbances to both L and R eyes?
If so, only adding to the fact that he couldn't fight her off after the GSW.
Only speculating, but I think the odds are pretty high.

I agree!

 

[LambChop]

Do you agree that with the entry point and trajectory that it likely caused damage to his right eye? Possibly even disturbed the optic nerves and caused visual disturbances to both L and R eyes?
If so, only adding to the fact that he couldn't fight her off after the GSW.
Only speculating, but I think the odds are pretty high.

:thud: Well, I could believe that, either way. And I could believe she could have left after the stab to the chest because he could have never caught her. However, if the State does prove he was stabbed first, she's toast because she lied about remembering. Frankly, I think she is toast either say. jmo

 

[pip]

http://www.medlink.com/medlinkcontent.asp
Optic nerve. The optic nerve is tethered in the optic canal and is subject to stretch injury during brain shifts. The bony architecture of the orbit directly transfers forces from the superolateral orbital rim to the optic nerve canal (Gross et al 1981). A quarter of these injuries result from penetrating trauma, mostly gunshot wounds. Frontal blows to the orbit along the superior lateral rim also often damage the optic nerve, whereas occipital injuries rarely cause optic nerve injury (Lindenberg et al 1973). Most traumatic optic neuropathies are the result of severe head trauma, and altered consciousness in the patient delays the diagnosis. Traumatic optic neuropathy has been estimated to occur in 0.5% to 5% of patients with head trauma (Wu et al 2008). Severe maxillofacial trauma may also result in traumatic optic neuropathy in the absence of brain injury up to 2.25% of the time (Urolagin et al 2012). An afferent pupillary defect in an unconscious patient is useful in the detection of optic nerve injury, whereas testing for visual fields and acuity usually establishes the diagnosis in cooperative patients. About 10% of patients show signs of bilateral optic nerve injury or chiasmal damage, and the majority of chiasmal injuries are incomplete (Savino et al 1980). Chiasmal injury is often associated with diabetes insipidus and decreased olfaction. The pupillary reflex is also useful in confirming nonorganic visual loss (Mavrakanas and Schutz 2009).

 

[LambChop]

http://www.medlink.com/medlinkcontent.asp
Optic nerve. The optic nerve is tethered in the optic canal and is subject to stretch injury during brain shifts. The bony architecture of the orbit directly transfers forces from the superolateral orbital rim to the optic nerve canal (Gross et al 1981). A quarter of these injuries result from penetrating trauma, mostly gunshot wounds. Frontal blows to the orbit along the superior lateral rim also often damage the optic nerve, whereas occipital injuries rarely cause optic nerve injury (Lindenberg et al 1973). Most traumatic optic neuropathies are the result of severe head trauma, and altered consciousness in the patient delays the diagnosis. Traumatic optic neuropathy has been estimated to occur in 0.5% to 5% of patients with head trauma (Wu et al 2008). Severe maxillofacial trauma may also result in traumatic optic neuropathy in the absence of brain injury up to 2.25% of the time (Urolagin et al 2012). An afferent pupillary defect in an unconscious patient is useful in the detection of optic nerve injury, whereas testing for visual fields and acuity usually establishes the diagnosis in cooperative patients. About 10% of patients show signs of bilateral optic nerve injury or chiasmal damage, and the majority of chiasmal injuries are incomplete (Savino et al 1980). Chiasmal injury is often associated with diabetes insipidus and decreased olfaction. The pupillary reflex is also useful in confirming nonorganic visual loss (Mavrakanas and Schutz 2009).

But if the eye were damaged due to the bullet wouldn't the ME have been able to detect that in his exam????

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The bullet did not touch the brain per the autopsy report.

There was a hole in the skull but it crashed though the sinus cavity, not the brain, and landed in the left cheek.

IMO

Where in the AR did Dr. Horn notate this?

imo

 

[geevee]

Yes, this is true. I just don't believe that is what caused this bleeding at the sink. He would have been attempting to run out the door to get away from her and to get help if this was his initial wound, not standing in front of the mirror..He can see his chest without a mirror. If you think part of your face was just shot off that is the first place I would go to see how bad the injury is. Know what i'm saying? JMO.

And to get something to stop the bleeding.

 

[pip]

But if the eye were damaged due to the bullet wouldn't the ME have been able to detect that in his exam????

You can't test for optic nerve damage after death, and they usually don't remove the eyeballs for exam on autopsy. Perhaps there was no damage, maybe there was but it was unapparent, undetected and maybe in the back of the eye? I don't know. It just seems from the trajectory and entrance point that the right eye would have been in the path. Which just gives me the chills to think that he may have suffered from loss of vision while being butchered by that maniac.

 

[LambChop]

And to get something to stop the bleeding.

Coughing up blood could have been from the head wound or it could have been from the chest. Either one would have left Travis with wounds where he was splattering blood in the sink area dripping onto the floor. Either of these wounds coming first would have give Jodi enough time to get away from him. End of story. For Jodi anyway. jmo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

:thud: Well, I could believe that, either way. And I could believe she could have left after the stab to the chest because he could have never caught her. However, if the State does prove he was stabbed first, she's toast because she lied about remembering. Frankly, I think she is toast either say. jmo

I think there probably are quite a few hunters on the jury who will be helpful understanding this part.

It is so easy to understand what it means when a bullet casing is found on already let blood and the only blood on the casing is where it is resting in the blood. There are so many CSI shows that explains evidence like this and what it means.

My hubby is an experienced hunter and I showed him the photo of the bullet casing on top of the dried congealed blood and he said quickly without hesitation. 'That shows he was already bleeding when she shot him in the head.' (I then told him there was no blood found on the casing anywhere except where it rested in the blood) It confirmed his belief that Travis was already injured and bleeding.

Did one of the jurors ask a question about the casing? Something along the lines she is saying she shot the gun first why is the casing on top of blood and could she explain how that could have happened? Or was it Martinez who asked her?

Imo, based on the evidence entered they already know she is lying and whatever she has said happened a certain way the evidence shows it happened the opposite way.

She just wants the gunshot to come first so she didn't have to go step by step with JM on each stab wound she inflicted and the cutting of his throat. Selective convenient rearranging which she is done throughout.


IMO

 

[LambChop]

You can't test for optic nerve damage after death, and they usually don't remove the eyeballs for exam on autopsy. Perhaps there was no damage, maybe there was but it was unapparent, undetected and maybe in the back of the eye? I don't know. It just seems from the trajectory and entrance point that the right eye would have been in the path. Which just gives me the chills to think that he may have suffered from loss of vision while being butchered by that maniac.

Well, I have to agree if that was the case he would not have been able to stop her from leaving nor would he have attempted to chase her down the hall. The sink is a biggie because of all that blood. At some point he was at that sink long enough to cough up all that blood, more than a second or two and Jodi could have been out the door. We know there was a 62 second timeframe and day-by-day it gets closer to us figuring out what really happened to Travis in those 62 seconds.

I think about her holding that knife and her left hand slipping and cutting herself. She was traumatized when she nicked herself with the safety razor in jail. But then rage sometimes blocks all that out until it's over and then the pain sets in.

 

[molly333]

Where in the AR did Dr. Horn notate this?

imo

He says it in the autopsy report under the general section, NERVOUS SYSTEM.

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/redactedtravisautopsy.pdf


dura mater and falx cerebri are intact.

There is good preservation of cerebral symmetry with diffuse green-gray softening of parenchyma due to decomposition.

Multiple sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma, foreign bodies, or previously existing natural disease.





dura mater definition

the outermost, toughest of the three meninges (membranes) of the brain and spinal cord.







He says it again under the gunshot wound track section:


"The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull near the superior orbital bone and tranverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury...




"without...apparent cerebral injury.."


cerebral definition
Adjective

1. Of or relating to the brain or cerebrum.


IMO

 

[LambChop]

I think there probably are quite a few hunters on the jury who will be helpful understanding this part.

It is so easy to understand what it means when a bullet casing is found on already let blood and the only blood on the casing is where it is resting in the blood. There are so many CSI shows that explains evidence like this and what it means.

My hubby is an experienced hunter and I showed him the photo of the bullet casing on top of the dried congealed blood and he said quickly without hesitation. 'That shows he was already bleeding when she shot him in the head.' (I then told him there was no blood found on the casing anywhere except where it rested in the blood) It confirmed his belief that Travis was already injured and bleeding.

Did one of the jurors ask a question about the casing? Something along the lines she is saying she shot the gun first why is the casing on top of blood and could she explain how that could have happened? Or was it Martinez who asked her?

Imo, based on the evidence entered they already know she is lying and whatever she has said happened a certain way the evidence shows it happened the opposite way.

She just wants the gunshot to come first so she didn't have to go step by step with JM on each stab wound she inflicted and the cutting of his throat. Selective convenient rearranging which she is done throughout.


IMO

I think JM is up to some "selective rearranging" himself. lol

 

[Whisperer]

I listened to Dr. Horn's testimony again. He said the bullet went through the frontal lobe (brain). He would have immediately been knocked unconscious. There was no blood hemmorhage from the entry point indicating all blood had been drained from the head prior to shooting.

The frontal lobe is located at your forehead. It is above your eyes. When they do lobe surgery, they remove the eye to get to that location. So it is very close. He could not have been walking around after a GSW in the forehead.

 

[wasnt_me]

I know a few people that have lived from a shotgun to the mouth. I stated in a earlier post these gun shot wounds to the head are the ones most likely to like from because it has to go through so much bone in order to hit the brain, if it even reaches it all. My dad is a firefighter and 1st responder and he has told me multiple stories about going on a call for someone that had put a gun in their mouth and pulled the trigger and have lived. But this is very different than a bullet through the temple, where the bone of the skull is the thinnest and would go in the brain. Those are more likely to die from than a shot to the mouth. So I just think it's two totally different situations here. And still there is no other explanation for why there would be little blood in the cranial cavity when the face and head is such an immensely vascular structure.

I have to agree that a shot in the mouth, is not the same thing as a bullet to the brain. I wonder if we sort out all the people who walked and talked with head shot wounds versus who walked and talked with bullets in or through the brain, we'd see how rare it would be for Travis to be talking, threatening and running.

 

[danzn16]

The bullet did not touch the brain per the autopsy report.

There was a hole in the skull but it crashed though the sinus cavity, not the brain, and landed in the left cheek.

IMO

Think about it. Upon research it says the average breadth of a the frontal sinus is 24mm, just smaller than the size of the bullet. The shot was on the right frontal bone above the brow. For it to only go through the sinuses it would have to go horizontally and out the left frontal bone. But we know it landed in the left cheek so the aim of the bullet would have to be down and to the left correct? For it to go through only the sinus it would have to come out the nasal bones right at the inner corner of the left eye. But we know that it didn't do that it went into the left cheek. We can see on the awful picture of TAs neck wound that you can see no damage to the left side of the face. That bullet was deep and was on the inner part of the cheek which is a pretty think bone. The trajectory makes it have to go through the brain even if the bullet went straight out of the gun. And .25s are known to go in many directions and not necessary straight. So even more chance for hitting the brain.