Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[danzn16]

Let's assume hypothetically that the Dr. Michael Baden that Mark Fuhrman referred to in his interview is actually the renowned forensic pathologist discussed on wikipedia here: Michael Baden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Let's also assume hypothetically that Dr. Baden reviewed the autopsy report and concluded, as indicated by Fuhrman, that JA delivered the gunshot wound first.

Would any of this information change your view of the ME's testimony that TA could not have sustained the apparently defensive wounds to his hands after suffering the gunshot wound?

Is there something missing from the autopsy report that Dr. Baden would have to see with his own eyes through a first-hand inspection of TA's body to arrive at the same conclusion as the ME? If so, what?

You know what they say about assuming = makes an out of U and ME.

And there's SO much of that going on with the gun first theory.

 

[LambChop]

BBM:


Possibly because she's suffering from Enterobius vermicularis? After all, she hates to sleep alone and an inmate with pinworms is never alone!:great::great::great:

I was thinking she needed a little scratch in the forward area but that works. jmo

 

[LaneGirl]

So here is a video about how easy and fast it is to clear a gun jam. JA could have had time to clear it if the gun jammed, especially since TA was already hit with one bullet in the head if you are a gun firster. However we don't know how experienced JA is with a gun. And no reason for her to have a back up knife either. Just wanted to share this with people that don't know about firearms.

http://youtu.be/ZUXjY9Y_vBE

JA claims to not know anything about guns though. So how easy is it for someone who knows nothing about guns?

 

[LaneGirl]

You know what they say about assuming = makes an out of U and ME.

And there's SO much of that going on with the gun first theory.

I was so hoping that one could talk about theory's without this kinda discussion.

 

[danzn16]

Hi Renee,

I guess what I was trying to say was: Unless JA gets her mind back we will NEVER know what came first. She and Travis were the only ones there and Travis isn't talking. Frankly would we believe a fourth story to be the truth after all her lying?

So we are arguing over speculation--there is NO definitive proof what came first.
All the prosecution wants to do is find her GUILTY of premeditated murder.
I am sure if there was a way to PROVE beyond speculation what happened we would not be on day 35, right.

Let's put it this way if it was as she said "self-defense", just the gun shot,the 27 stabbings,or slit throat alone could have given her the ability to GET AWAY. She would certainly not have to stab him 27 times to put some distance between them for her escape.JMO

i'm hoping that once JA is sentenced to death or LWOP she gets tired of not having the TV interviews and public attention on her and I hope she tells what really happened in her chance for more attention. I doubt that will ever happen since she's a pathological liar, but I really hope it does!

 

[danzn16]

There's no blood because the bullet did not go through the brain.

The dura mater was intact.

IMO

There would still be blood from the facial wound caused by the bullet. And there would also be blood in the cranial cavity from the dura sinus being disrupted even if there was no entry into the brain. Even if there was no entry into the brain there would still be significant bleeding inside the skull. That is why people can have head injuries with no penetration of the brain and still get hemorrhaging or subdural or epidural hematomas that are life-threatening and causes unconsciousness and death in many causes.

 

[LambChop]

I was so hoping that one could talk about theory's without this kinda discussion.

Being nice, nice here. I think the point is it is hard to tell who really knows what they are speaking about compared to those who are assuming.

Myself, not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I do trust the doctor because I just do not see how a bullet can penetrate the skull at a high rate of speed and not go into the brain even if it only partially passes through. Plus your forehead is not flat, it juts out around your eyes.

Unless we are an ME or in pathology I'm inclined to stick with the ME's report which at this point in the trial is of little importance to the jury considering all the other evidence against her. jmo

 

[danzn16]

Captain, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

In my mind you are severely over-interpreting the autopsy report. Let's consider the main point of your argument:

Despite what some on here would have you believe. It is impossible for an object to transverse the Anterior Fossa, in the manner this bullet did, without hitting the Frontal Lobe. He did not specify this because it isn't necessary. Basic anatomy should lead someone reading his report to the very same conclusion.

Ok, let's look at some anatomy. In fact, between the skull and brain are membranes and fluid-filled spaces that take up volume (dura mater, blood-filled dural space, pia mater, and subarachnoid space). To illustrate, I attach three anatomy diagrams below. As you can see, there IS space where the bullet could have perforated the anterior fossa without hitting the brain.

Having said that, Horn's report provides inadequate detail to indicate that the penetration was sufficiently posterior to have penetrated the brain. In fact, everything Horn says in his report indicates that the brain was NOT penetrated. There are two statements in his autopsy report that directly speak to this:

The wound track perforates the anterior frontal skull ... and traverses the right anterior fossa, without gross evidence of significant intracranial hemorrhage or apparent cerebral injury.

And:

The 1525-gram brain is covered by thin, clear, delicate leptomeninges. The dura mater and falx cerebri are intact.... Multiple serial sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma, foreign bodies, or previously existing natural disease.

How do you penetrate the brain without penetrating the dura mater?

In light of the above information, it makes no sense that Horn would have assumed that anyone with any basic knowledge of anatomy reading the report would automatically know that the brain was penetrated. Horn is a Medical Examiner, and it is his job to identify injuries that could have significance in a murder trial. Any reasonable person would say that a bullet through the brain would be significant information to clearly bring forward in an autopsy report because the report could factor heavily in a criminal proceeding.

Yet Horn is silent on this in his report. Why? Because there was simply no evidence that the brain was penetrated.

Dave

You do realize your picture is from a drawing that exaggerates spaces so one can learn the spaces names? Do you realize there is blood and significant vessels that are in these spaces that would be injured and cause bleeding even if the brain wasn't injured? You do realize that last picture is of a cadaver that all the organs decrease in size and have all the blood drained from them which also helps decrease the life like quality and anatomical location of organs enough to make a difference? Look up some real life brain surgery photos and see how close the brain is to the skull without the exaggerated spaces from a drawing or a cadaver that has been dead for a very long time. Especially a surgery that has had trauma and has resulted in swelling and bleeding around the brain, the brain can literally bulge from the cranial cavity and require removal of part of the skull just to have enough room and not result in damage

 

[danzn16]

danzn, danzn, danzn...:facepalm:

This knife-first scenario continues to strain common sense at every turn. Its like you are trying to force-fit a square peg into a round hole. I can't believe you guys are so passionately defending this turkey. It continues to not work on so many levels. Even the Gospel According to Horn doesn't hold up to any serious scrutiny as support for knife-first! When are you guys going to start thinking for yourselves???

Ok, let's consider your scenario regarding alternative wounds that could have contributed to the sink blood. Let's start with the chest wound. Shall we re-open the Gospel? Here is the section of the autopsy report that discusses the lungs:

The lungs weigh 340 grams left and 280 grams right. The upper and lower airways are patent and of normal caliber. The pleural surfaces are smooth and glistening. The parenchyma is autolyzed dark re-purple, exuding moderate amount of blood and intermixed frothy decompositional fluid. There are no areas of induration, consolidation, hemorrhage, or gross scarring. The pulmonary are patent and of normal caliber.

Seems to me that Travis' lungs were not full of blood from his chest wound(s). This doesn't square with all the blood at the sink.

Consider all the sharp force chest wounds, as described in the autopsy report. The cluster of 9 stab woulds do not penetrate the chest cavity. There are some additional stab wounds that penetrate muscle, but do not penetrate the chest cavity. Finally, there is the heart wound. This is described:

A 1 1/2 inch oblique stab wound of the paramidline right chest, with penetration/perforation of the costochondral junction near the sternum at the level of the 3rd and 4th right ribs; the wound extends to a max depth of 3 1/2 inches with penetration of the superior vena cava near the base of the heart, with a small amount of surrounding hemorrhagic in the mediastinal soft tissues and the pericardial sac of the heart.

Seems to me that any penetration of the lung was rather minor, so minor it is not even mentioned in Horn's autopsy report! So how could the chest wound have caused all the blood at the sink?

Ok, how about the neck wounds? Could they be the source of all the blood at the sink? According to Horn's report, other than the major throat slitting, the three remaining neck stab wounds were superficial:

A 1/4 inch shallow stab wound of the anteromedial upper right neck, with penetration of subcutaneous adipose tissue only.
A 1/4 inch oblique stab wound of the lower anteromedial left neck, with penetration of lower medial attachment of left sternocleidomstoid muscle to manubrium.
A 1 inch oblique stab wound of the posterior left neck, with penetration of superficial posterior paraspinal neck muscles.

Again, these superficial wounds don't reasonably fit all the blood at the sink. The bleeding at the sink was profuse, almost pouring, as evidenced by the trail of blood at the front-left of the sink.

Ok, lastly, what about the scalp wounds? Could they have been the source of all that blood?? Again, from Horn's report:

Two (2) oblique linear full thickness incised wound of the right and left posterior scalp, each measuring 2 inches in length.
A 1/4 inch oblique stab wound of teh lower scalp (over the mastoid process), below the earlobe of the right ear, with an apparent blunt 1/32 inch wide and posteriorly, wiht penetration into scalp and superficial upper right sternocloidomastoid muscle.
A 1/4 shallow incised wound of the anteromedial upper left forhead, within the hairline.

So these stab wounds are posterior and/or fairly superficial. In addition, bleeding from scalp wounds will be slowed and absorbed by the hair.

So I think any thoughtful Websleuth enthusiast would be left wondering, what reasonably is the source of all the profuse bleeding at the sink?? Well, the 1/3 of us who have it right would probably agree that it makes more sense that the rapidly dripping blood would have come from a serious head wound, such as a hole in Travis' forehead. Or it could be coming from his nose from his busted sinus. Ever see a serious nose bleed?

Take another look at that sink. The trail of blood at front-left was from a profuse source. C'mon, get real. That was no superficial neck or scalp wound.

This was from a gunshot wound.

Dave

I guess you missed the part of the ME's testimony that said it was possible the lungs were punctured and he couldn't tell because of decomp. I guess you missed the part about how it was possible the knife stabs could have entered so deeply they entered the body cavities but decomp made it difficult to tell. And I guess you also missed the part where TA's hair was too short to absorb any force and slow down any stab wounds.

Have you seen any stab wounds of this nature? They bleed and they bleed a lot and can sometimes be deceiving on the severity of the injury, especially scalp and facial wounds.

And you're saying that a gun shot to the head could only cause massive bleeding? Well geez you guys have been discussing how he didn't bleed in head because it didn't hit any important structures in the brain??

 

[LaneGirl]

Being nice, nice here. I think the point is it is hard to tell who really knows what they are speaking about compared to those who are assuming.

Myself, not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I do trust the doctor because I just do not see how a bullet can penetrate the skull at a high rate of speed and not go into the brain even if it only partially passes through. Plus your forehead is not flat, it juts out around your eyes.

Unless we are an ME or in pathology I'm inclined to stick with the ME's report which at this point in the trial is of little importance to the jury considering all the other evidence against her. jmo

I totally understand and I get it but we do have this thread for a reason and just dismissing what others want to theorize and basically call them names through a cute saying isn't very nice. I think we all want justice for TA and want JA punished but we can be nice to each other through our discussions right? Having said that it IS hard to know if someone is saying it in jest.

 

[danzn16]

I was so hoping that one could talk about theory's without this kinda discussion.

Like how we were called sheep last night? Yeah, me too. And my statement isn't calling anyone anything. It's a saying and it's true. I choose not to assume and to go off evidence so I don't want to go there.

 

[danzn16]

JA claims to not know anything about guns though. So how easy is it for someone who knows nothing about guns?

I learned how to do this my first time shooting a gun. So I knew how as a novice. It's possible JA did too. And I don't know if she knows nothing about guns. She's a pathological liar. And it's possible she's telling the truth too. But you don't have to be proficient with guns to know how to do this, but you would have to be told or you could just do it from instinct if you see a casing sticking out. It would also be interesting to know what type of gun it was because that could increase the likelihood of this happening.

 

[danzn16]

I totally understand and I get it but we do have this thread for a reason and just dismissing what others want to theorize and basically call them names through a cute saying isn't very nice. I think we all want justice for TA and want JA punished but we can be nice to each other through our discussions right? Having said that it IS hard to know if someone is saying it in jest.

I don't see that calling anyone a name. I said you and me so if it was a name it would include me too. If anyone feels they were called a name, I apologize because that wasn't the point. The point is it is never smart to assume. Now a sheep, that's a name, saying we don't think for ourselves is also an insult. And I don't mind because it's a passionate subject and it's understandable tempers flare a bit. I get the point and I don't take it personally. I'm sorry if a saying is personal.

 

[danzn16]

Like one of the mods said in the gun control thread, you're not going to change anyone's opinion so discuss your opinion and take others as it is.

 

[LaneGirl]

Like how we were called sheep last night? Yeah, me too. And my statement is calling anyone anything. It's a saying and it's true. I choose not to assume and to go off evidence so I don't want to go there.

Respectfully - Your posts are very informative but sometimes the delivery is a bit harsh. All I'm saying is if you want gun first theorist to listen, maybe indirectly calling them a donkey (not allowed to cuss on websleuths) isn't going to help. That's all I'm saying.

I don't think calling anyone sheep is nice either.

 

[sacrablue]

After watching more film on JA, this is not your typical girly girl. She could have been a gymnast. She moves like a cat, she has physical strength, flexibity, coordination, balance and I bet she is quick.

 

[LaneGirl]

I don't see that calling anyone a name. I said you and me so if it was a name it would include me too. If anyone feels they were called a name, I apologize because that wasn't the point. The point is it is never smart to assume. Now a sheep, that's a name, saying we don't think for ourselves is also an insult. And I don't mind because it's a passionate subject and it's understandable tempers flare a bit. I get the point and I don't take it personally. I'm sorry if a saying is personal.

We are good!

It's hard in print to know if someone is serious or making jest.

Agree I also do not like anyone being called a sheep.

 

[LambChop]

I don't see that calling anyone a name. I said you and me so if it was a name it would include me too. If anyone feels they were called a name, I apologize because that wasn't the point. The point is it is never smart to assume. Now a sheep, that's a name, saying we don't think for ourselves is also an insult. And I don't mind because it's a passionate subject and it's understandable tempers flare a bit. I get the point and I don't take it personally. I'm sorry if a saying is personal.

Hey, I'm the only sheep in the family. :blushing: So I guess it was directed to me.

 

[LambChop]

Like one of the mods said in the gun control thread, you're not going to change anyone's opinion so discuss your opinion and take others as it is.

It is good to hear someone explaining the ME's report and testimony in terms that we can understand. It is hard to make sense of but you have explained it so that many of us understand what happened to poor Travis. I remember when we were listing to Dr. Vass. He did make it easier to understand what before sounded so complicated. Thanks

 

[LambChop]

After watching more film on JA, this is not your typical girly girl. She could have been a gymnast. She moves like a cat, she has physical strength, flexibity, coordination, balance and I bet she is quick.

So do you think she may be more powerful than we would normally think? I have to believe that shock belt is on her for a reason. jmo