Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[molly333]

Why would a man run from a woman with a knife instead of disarming her and throwing her across the room?

 

[RealityMan]

I've read the arguments on both sides of this issue. I find myself believing that, despite the ME’s opinion to the contrary, JA shot TA first.

I think JA intended to kill TA instantly with the gun in the shower. She did not think for a moment that TA would ever survive the gun shot, much less escape from the shower.

JA lured TA into the shower by offering to take some pictures of him with his new camera for his myspace account. JA had to persuade TA to pose for her, but TA eventually gave in. It was his camera, after all, and so he knew he would be able to delete any photos that he did not like later. Also, JA probably promised TA she would leave soon after the photos were taken.

TA looks uncomfortable in the photos, but I really do not think JA is threatening him with a weapon. He is posing for JA and is just following her direction. JA considered shooting TA when his back was completely turned to her. I think she decided against shooting him at this moment because TA’s head was a little bit too far away and also she realized he might fall out of the shower after he was shot. That’s when JA directed TA into the more vulnerable sitting position with his head closer to the shower door.

JA accidentally snapped the 5:30:30 shot as she approached TA in the shower. She was holding the camera in her right hand to show TA the picture she had just taken. As TA looked at the camera, JA pulled the gun from a pocket with her left hand and shot him in the head. TA was taken by complete surprise. He did not see JA with the gun in her hand until possibly after he had been shot.

TA then rises to his feet, cursing. TA may have even said at least some of the things JA intimated. “****ing kill you *****!” JA cannot believe TA is still alive. She tries to fire another shot, but the gun jams. TA begins to stumble his way out of the shower. JA accidentally snaps the photo of the bathroom ceiling as she panics and runs down the hallway. She drops the camera, but it is attached to her own camera strap that she had affixed to the camera. So the camera stays with her. The camera was never dropped to the floor.

TA is disoriented and in shock. He somehow stumbles to the sink area, maybe to try to get a look himself and his injury in the mirror. JA retrieves a knife. She may have brought it with her, along with the gun. Or she might’ve known where one was stashed nearby. JA comes back to the bathroom, perhaps through the closet, and starts slashing away at TA. Although TA is standing up, he is severely wounded. JA is not worried that TA will hurt her. TA is in no condition to defend himself. Her only concern is killing him as quickly as possible. TA sees JA coming and weakly attempts to defend himself, sustaining his frontal and defensive injuries. TA then drops to his knees and begins crawling down the hallway in a futile attempt to escape. All the while, JA is hacking and slashing away at TA with the knife. Finally, JA delivers the final slash across TA’s neck.

As JA begins to drag TA back to the bathroom area, she accidentally bumps the camera button, taking the 5:32:16 and 5:33:13 photos. The camera is still around her neck.

 

[Paige SC]

Hi all,

In support of my post #258 above and the thesis that Travis was shot 1st, I've been doing a bit of digging in the literature on gunshot wounds to the head.

One generality that can be made is that penetrating damage to the frontal lobes is the least likely to be incapacitating and life threatening. I quote from two sources (bbm):

"Generally speaking, the nearer the bullet track is to the base of the brain, the more dangerous is the injury.... Of the less severe injuries, perforations of the frontal lobes are the least serious, and those of the occipital region are also not very dangerous to life." (Gunshot Wounds. C.G.Spencer)

"Just as in the case of gunshot wounds of the heart or major blood vessels, individuals can perform tasks and survive wounds of the brain, especially if the injury involves only the frontal lobes... In documented cases of suicide, individuals have fired a bullet through their frontal lobes, and then fired a second, fatal gunshot wound to the basal ganglia." (Gunshot Wounds, Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques. Vincent DiMaio, M.D.)

The second reference above describes some examples. Included was an elderly man who shot himself in the temple with a .32 caliber revolver. The bullet perforated both cerebral hemispheres. Following this, he was conscious for at least two hours during which time he talked with his wife, a visiting nurse, and EMS personnel.

There is another case (with photo) described in which an elderly man shot himself in the right temple with a .357 Magnum. The wound was so devastating, it blew off the front and top of his head above the temple. Nonetheless, he lived for an hour and a half without any life support, highlighting the non-critical nature the frontal lobes for sustaining life.

I quote again from the second reference above (bbm):

"In addition to such a head wound not immediately causing incapacitation, in some instances individuals who have been shot do not initially realize it. This is not uncommon in combat situations, where the noise, violence, and activity so distract an individual that he may not realize he has been wounded."

Now, Dr. Horn is a Medical Examiner. But he is NOT a specialist in traumatic brain injury. His testimony that Travis would likely have been immediately incapacitated is completely unfounded by the evidence that was presented. Horn is out of his realm of expertise when he speculates about Travis being incapacitated. More seriously, he presented an unfounded scenario aligned with the state's preferred sequence of events that could be very damaging to the defense. If Travis was shot first, it is consistent with Jodi's story. If Travis was shot last, Jodi is lying. Obviously the prosecution prefers that Travis be shot last.

When Travis was shot in the shower, he was probably shocked about what had just happened: his ex, with whom he had just had sex that afternoon, had just fired a handgun aimed at his face/head. He would have known he was hit, but may not have known how serious it was. When Jodi tried to fire a second time, the gun jammed. Travis would have realized he was in mortal danger, and his 'fight or flight' adrenaline kicked in. Jodi left the bathroom to get the knife. As she was leaving, Travis might have hissed "I'll kill you bltch!" per Jodi's testimony. Travis got up from the shower and headed to the sink to look in the mirror at his injury and where all the blood was coming from. He might have assumed Jodi, with a jammed gun, was no longer an immediate threat. Hence, he faced the mirror, bent over the sink as his blood dripped, steadying himself with wet hands on the counter in front of the sink. Blood was filling his sinus and mouth, he aspirated some blood, and coughed.

Seconds later, in the mirror, he saw Jodi coming at him with the knife. He turned to face his attacker.....

Dave

What we know is 90-95% of all gunshot wounds to the head are fatal and the vast majority are fatal within seconds to minutes. Medically speaking, 50/50% odds are horrible, so 90% is essentially a guarantee of death.

In instances of suicide, the cases you referenced Did these individuals point the gun directly over their right front eyebrow and aim in a lower trajectory towards their left side, or rather put the gun to their temple in 'typical' suicide fashion and therefore creating an exit wound?

Of all GSW's, 90-95% die. Of those who managed survive for any length of time - ALL OF THEM REQUIRE AGGRESSIVE RESUSCITATION ATTEMPTS once they arrive at the hospital. None of them walked in the ER on their own, nor am I aware of any making the 911 call to report they had been shot in the head.

The exception proves the rule. This is my motto and the fact you can cite a handful of cases where a few lucky folks beat the odds or survived for a few hours, it goes to establish how rare of an occurrence it is. The ME is perfectly qualified to render an expert opinion as to what happens when a bullet enters the brain of a living human being! He doesn't have to be a specialist in traumatic brain injury to have a clinical understanding of what happens once someone is shot in the head. Nonsense. This isn't rocket science. He stated with medical certainty once the bullet entered his brain it would have caused immediate incapacitation as a result of neurological shock and death would have happened shortly after. He wasn't "speculating". The defense hasn't even bothered to call their own expert to refute his findings and that's pretty telling since there's always someone out there jumping at the chance to discredit another expert's opinion.

To conclude the man was shot in the head but not immediately aware of it, still able to communicate, fight for his life - as well as make an attempt to flee via walking or crawling out the bathroom is a serious leap in logical gymnastics and far less plausible than the one mapped out for us by Dr. Horn, IMHO.

http://neurosurgery.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=134
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+mortality+rate+gsw&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...s+mortality+rate+gsw&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[Captain86]

Why would a man run from a woman with a knife instead of disarming her and throwing her across the room?

I think he was surprised by the attack and then the realization that he has just been stabbed, possibly more than once, his fight or flight response kicked in. We all like to think we will fight, but until you are in the situation, you realy don't know for sure which way your brain will go.

I am currently training in defending against knife attacks in a martial art, my instructor tells us repeatedly that people freak when someone pulls a knife and it is really hard to force yourself to step toward someone pulls a knife on you. He also says that getting stabbed really hurts. The surprise, the pain, and the fact that she has a knife she has already stabbed him with are 3 big factors as to why he might try to get away.

 

[Paige SC]

Here is Dr. Kevin Horn's experience/credentials. Keep in mind the last time this page was updated was 13 years ago. He is now board certified. I imagine his subsequent appointments, publications and additional accreditations would make his bio 6 ft long.

http://path.upmc.edu/people/residents/horn/horn-cv.html

 

[Captain86]

Hi all,

In support of my post #258 above and the thesis that Travis was shot 1st, I've been doing a bit of digging in the literature on gunshot wounds to the head.

One generality that can be made is that penetrating damage to the frontal lobes is the least likely to be incapacitating and life threatening. I quote from two sources (bbm):

"Generally speaking, the nearer the bullet track is to the base of the brain, the more dangerous is the injury.... Of the less severe injuries, perforations of the frontal lobes are the least serious, and those of the occipital region are also not very dangerous to life." (Gunshot Wounds. C.G.Spencer)

"Just as in the case of gunshot wounds of the heart or major blood vessels, individuals can perform tasks and survive wounds of the brain, especially if the injury involves only the frontal lobes... In documented cases of suicide, individuals have fired a bullet through their frontal lobes, and then fired a second, fatal gunshot wound to the basal ganglia." (Gunshot Wounds, Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques. Vincent DiMaio, M.D.)

The second reference above describes some examples. Included was an elderly man who shot himself in the temple with a .32 caliber revolver. The bullet perforated both cerebral hemispheres. Following this, he was conscious for at least two hours during which time he talked with his wife, a visiting nurse, and EMS personnel.

There is another case (with photo) described in which an elderly man shot himself in the right temple with a .357 Magnum. The wound was so devastating, it blew off the front and top of his head above the temple. Nonetheless, he lived for an hour and a half without any life support, highlighting the non-critical nature the frontal lobes for sustaining life.

I quote again from the second reference above (bbm):

"In addition to such a head wound not immediately causing incapacitation, in some instances individuals who have been shot do not initially realize it. This is not uncommon in combat situations, where the noise, violence, and activity so distract an individual that he may not realize he has been wounded."

Now, Dr. Horn is a Medical Examiner. But he is NOT a specialist in traumatic brain injury. His testimony that Travis would likely have been immediately incapacitated is completely unfounded by the evidence that was presented. Horn is out of his realm of expertise when he speculates about Travis being incapacitated. More seriously, he presented an unfounded scenario aligned with the state's preferred sequence of events that could be very damaging to the defense. If Travis was shot first, it is consistent with Jodi's story. If Travis was shot last, Jodi is lying. Obviously the prosecution prefers that Travis be shot last.

When Travis was shot in the shower, he was probably shocked about what had just happened: his ex, with whom he had just had sex that afternoon, had just fired a handgun aimed at his face/head. He would have known he was hit, but may not have known how serious it was. When Jodi tried to fire a second time, the gun jammed. Travis would have realized he was in mortal danger, and his 'fight or flight' adrenaline kicked in. Jodi left the bathroom to get the knife. As she was leaving, Travis might have hissed "I'll kill you bltch!" per Jodi's testimony. Travis got up from the shower and headed to the sink to look in the mirror at his injury and where all the blood was coming from. He might have assumed Jodi, with a jammed gun, was no longer an immediate threat. Hence, he faced the mirror, bent over the sink as his blood dripped, steadying himself with wet hands on the counter in front of the sink. Blood was filling his sinus and mouth, he aspirated some blood, and coughed.

Seconds later, in the mirror, he saw Jodi coming at him with the knife. He turned to face his attacker.....

Dave

That is all good research and those things do occur. However, the issue isn't whether he could have done anything after he was shot, but instead that there was no bleeding in the brain when he was shot. The human body's first priority is to preserve the brain. So, if there had been blood to shunt to the brain to keep it alive, then when he was shot, there would have been intracranial bleeding. That there wasn't intracranial bleeding is the important part of the ME's report and testimony. Granted, having the Carotid Arteries severed would drastically reduce the blood flow to the brain, but the Vertebral Arteries can still supply some blood flow to the brain through the Circle of Willis. So, it isn't just the fact that the flow was drastically reduced, there wasn't any blood left to get to the Frontal Lobe when he was shot.

 

[danzn16]

That is all good research and those things do occur. However, the issue isn't whether he could have done anything after he was shot, but instead that there was no bleeding in the brain when he was shot. The human body's first priority is to preserve the brain. So, if there had been blood to shunt to the brain to keep it alive, then when he was shot, there would have been intracranial bleeding. That there wasn't intracranial bleeding is the important part of the ME's report and testimony. Granted, having the Carotid Arteries severed would drastically reduce the blood flow to the brain, but the Vertebral Arteries can still supply some blood flow to the brain through the Circle of Willis. So, it isn't just the fact that the flow was drastically reduced, there wasn't any blood left to get to the Frontal Lobe when he was shot.

It is this fact that proves that he was shot last. There is no other explanation that would make scientific sense. I can't see how one can ignore the only physical evidence there is and just go off "I would have done it this way", "a woman would use a gun 1st", and thought processes on what makes sense to based on a rational human beings mind set and also not even knowing what happened in that bathroom that day. We have proof right here!! Why ignore that?

 

[Paige SC]

It is this fact that proves that he was shot last. There is no other explanation that would make scientific sense. I can't see how one can ignore the only physical evidence there is and just go off "I would have done it this way", "a woman would use a gun 1st", and thought processes on what makes sense to based on a rational human beings mind set and also not even knowing what happened in that bathroom that day. We have proof right here!! Why ignore that?

AMAZING, isn't it??? Be afraid. Be very afraid. LOL

 

[Linda7NJ]

Why would a man run from a woman with a knife instead of disarming her and throwing her across the room?

Well... When the woman lures the man...into a very tight space, gets him naked and wet to sit in a vulnerable position... Surprises him with a knife plunge into his chest four inches... Into his heart... I don't think he can easily gain the upper hand as he's being repeatedly stabbed...

But that's my opinion


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[molly333]

AMAZING, isn't it??? Be afraid. Be very afraid. LOL

well, let me put it this way--if him being shot first meant acquittal for Jodi, I would vote for acquittal.

Since it doesn't matter when he was shot in this case, imo, I don't think you have to be afraid.

And, though Nurmi didn't do a great job of bringing it out, shot first was the position of the State in the first hearing.

 

[raisincharlie]

I pretty much agree with this theory. I keep going back and forth on gun first or stabbing first. But have to say I just can't grasp having a gun at my disposal, shooting (my victim) first, then picking up a knife to continue stabbing to death. The only way I could see gun first was if gun totally incapacitated (my victim). Then I could see continuing with knife (stab wounds) in complete and total rage. We do not see Travis totally incapacitated bc it's obvious there was a struggle in bathroom, down hallway towards bedroom then back to bathroom (shower).
I believe the stabbing a occur first, struggles, then the slicing of the neck. As she drags him back to shower area, his body makes involuntary movements and/or sounds making her believe he is still alive, so this is where she shoots him in the head to finalize his death. I do firmly believe that each stab wound was an act of rage for each time he rejected her. I totally agree with you about her talking to him as she brutally stabbed him....each and every time telling him "how dare you reject me after I have given you every thing you wanted and more" just MOO but I felt her rage when I looked at the photos...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I have trouble with the rage issue. After watching her on the stand all I see is cold calculation. JMO, she stabbed this guy near the heart in the shower while sitting. When that didn't work out her scrambled brain told her she had no choice but to do what was necessary to eliminate him so she would not have to accept responsibility for her first action. It was simply a matter of choice, if she left Travis alive she would be in deep trouble, since she was the stealth ninja going to his house, the simple answer for Jodi was to kill him. Stabbing the guy in the back and slitting his throat pretty much eliminates self defense.

Jodi was all about self preservation, which is quite different. That she planned to enter Arizona undetected in a plain white rental car with missing or upside down plates, extra gas, a conveniently off the air cell phone, deleting photos and putting the camera in the washer, attempted clean up of the scene and body, removal from the scene of the murder weapons, and then moving on to another guy just verifies her level of calculation. Not buying either rage or crime of passion.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Another point for stabbing first is Jodi's own words to Flores back on 7/16/08.

"If I had planned to hurt him in any way, I, you know, I'm not the brightest person, but I don't think I could stab him. I think I would have to shoot him continuously until he was dead, if that were my intention."

Which of course means Jodi would stab him first.

 

[KatFish]

I think she shot him and stabbed him in the shower. I think this is where he got the defensive wounds to his hands. I think this was going on in the 44 second time frame before the ceiling shot on the camera. I think the ceiling shot occurred because TA burst out of the shower and JA inadvertently took a picture as she was pushed back. He goes to the sink bleeding from his chest/mouth/nose and hands. She already has the knife in hand and starts stabbing him at the sink. Blood casts off all the way to the toilet room. He feels weak and tries to retreat to down the hall to the master bedroom all the while she is wielding the knife to his head/back/neck area. He collapses at the end of the hallway on all fours where she slits his throat. He is laying face down, and she tries to roll him on his back by pulling his arms over. She drags him by his feet down the hallway not realizing she has a cut on her hand. She leaves a bloody palm print while trying to position his body for dragging. She drags him past the shower and grabs his right arm and hair to lift him over the shower door ledge. She inadvertently kicks the camera with her bloody foot while moving his lifeless body. It appears to me that the camera was dropped and never moved from its position during the attack.

Although, I do think she shot him first. I also think she stabbed him in the shower afterwards just out of hate for him.

Additionally, I am still not convinced that he knew she was coming, that he invited her in, and that HE took those photos of her, and that he was posing in the shower. I think something very sadistic went on that we will probably never know about. :moo:

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have trouble with the rage issue. After watching her on the stand all I see is cold calculation. JMO, she stabbed this guy near the heart in the shower while sitting. When that didn't work out her scrambled brain told her she had no choice but to do what was necessary to eliminate him so she would not have to accept responsibility for her first action. It was simply a matter of choice, if she left Travis alive she would be in deep trouble, since she was the stealth ninja going to his house, the simple answer for Jodi was to kill him. Stabbing the guy in the back and slitting his throat pretty much eliminates self defense.

Jodi was all about self preservation, which is quite different. That she planned to enter Arizona undetected in a plain white rental car with missing or upside down plates, extra gas, a conveniently off the air cell phone, deleting photos and putting the camera in the washer, attempted clean up of the scene and body, removal from the scene of the murder weapons, and then moving on to another guy just verifies her level of calculation. Not buying either rage or crime of passion.

ITA! Charlie....

This had nothing to do with rage or passion. It was cold and methodical to GET EVEN with the man that dared to tell her he didnt want her in his life anymore.

IMO

 

[Elley Mae]

I think she shot him and stabbed him in the shower. I think this is where he got the defensive wounds to his hands. I think this was going on in the 44 second time frame before the ceiling shot on the camera. I think the ceiling shot occurred because TA burst out of the shower and JA inadvertently took a picture as she was pushed back. He goes to the sink bleeding from his chest/mouth/nose and hands. She already has the knife in hand and starts stabbing him at the sink. Blood casts off all the way to the toilet room. He feels weak and tries to retreat to down the hall to the master bedroom all the while she is wielding the knife to his head/back/neck area. He collapses at the end of the hallway on all fours where she slits his throat. He is laying face down, and she tries to roll him on his back by pulling his arms over. She drags him by his feet down the hallway not realizing she has a cut on her hand. She leaves a bloody palm print while trying to position his body for dragging. She drags him past the shower and grabs his right arm and hair to lift him over the shower door ledge. She inadvertently kicks the camera with her bloody foot while moving his lifeless body. It appears to me that the camera was dropped and never moved from its position during the attack.

Although, I do think she shot him first. I also think she stabbed him in the shower afterwards just out of hate for him.

Additionally, I am still not convinced that he knew she was coming, that he invited her in, and that HE took those photos of her, and that he was posing in the shower. I think something very sadistic went on that we will probably never know about. :moo:

bbm, I have seen pictures that show Travis' body, his back, (right side) and leg, (right side) that shows scrapes and scratches were he was drug. There is a picture that shows the corner molding at the floor and you can see the blood on the molding.

 

[Mountaindreamer]

hi everyone, geeez havent been on here since Casey Anthony and was just thinking about this thread last night. I think if the jury can put together that the gas cans were indeed for the sake of making it look like she was not there then they can get to premeditation

 

[Mountaindreamer]

I think people forget even on Jane Valez that we are hearing HER story, a story from a liar. we dont even know if any of that happened. Did he know she was coming. it does appear the pictures were from that day unless she changed the time stamp. plus do the jurers see that the calls that were taped, he didnt know about it, i think she planned originally to play them as blackmail to the people Travis knew. the fact that she came with a gun and knife say she went there to kill him. not sure why he posed in the shower for her, he should have told her to go back home the minute she got there, but i am sure she somehow seduced him

 

[slinkpod]

I wondered why a gun and a knife? Why not just shoot him a couple of more times? Why rinse him off when he had just showered all her DNA off already? I believe that she was carrying out the blood atonement ritual from the 1850s. It requires that the offender have the throat slashed from ear to ear and the blood spilled onto the ground. In this case, the blood is rinsed down the drain to return to the earth via the sewer. The offender (usually someone who committed adultery) can now obtain eternal life.
So, first she shoots him as he is sitting down in the shower--that explains the bullet trajectory. Her plan was for him to die quickly from the bullet and slash the throat right there. She puts the gun in the purse and gets the knife and maybe does that preliminary stab wound he's got right below the ear. He's stunned from the bullet but starts to crawl out. She must have been pretty shocked at this point. Knife still in hand, she stabs at the head a couple of times as he crawls, following with the cluster of stabs to the upper back. (I can hear her yelling "die!, die!"). Low blood sprays are made on the walls at this time.
During her interview with Flores, she mentioned how he was touching his head and moaning while on all fours. He has his right hand at his head while putting his left hand up to defend himself. The left hand gets the deep wounds. He decides to rise and grabs the counter by the sink with his right hand-- that accounts for the blood smear by the lower right side of the sink. He rises as she stabs at the torso. He only has one eye working and is slow, so she is able to get a precise stab to the center chest. Pulling the knife out from that would account for the blood spray toward the sink though I bet the bullet wound through his sinus area would have him spraying blood out of his mouth or nose, also.
The curving blood drop line on the lower left of the counter top shows that he turned to leave at this point. After that hard thrust to his chest, Jodi may have backed up a bit, expecting him to drop. He goes for the hallway, using the wall to help him stay up, smearing blood along the wall. He drops down, and Jodi follows to slice the throat. She had plans on this blood getting down the drain--the blood needs to get into the ground, so she drags him back to the shower and rinses the wound with the cup.
I know this theory doesn't jive with the ME, but after reading other threads here concerning bullet damage to this brain area, and the fact that decomp left little to study, I fully believe it was a shoot first situation. Adding the blood atonement aspect accounts for use of two weapons, the application of an ear to ear slash (kinda unusual), and the rinsing off. Also, her demeanor and statements she made (during interview with Flores) about how she would have humanely killed him show that this was not her plan--she's innocent and carrying out a mission to make sure Travis obtained eternal life.

 

[raisincharlie]

Slinkpod - what is the source for the blood atonement ritual ?

There are several ranging from the Book of Genisis, to Brigham Young, to Yom Kipper.

 

[Mountaindreamer]

where did we hear about blood atonement was it on Jane Valez, i remember something about it