Jodi Arias Trial discussion, #3

[HarvestMoon]

I think they would have been dead a long time ago by her hand. She certainly had no problem trying to pull this off. Essentially she killed him three times. jmo

I don't know, was that rage an accumulation of a hell of a lot built up anger?

Sure would like to know what those two twins in the back of the courtroom know about Jodi Arias.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I hear you and agree but...The Mormon church is different than other Christian churches. There are three levels of "heaven" the highest level being the Celestial Kingdom where their Heavenly Father resides. Then there are the Telestial and Terrestial Kingdoms. Then there is Outer Darkness for the people who deny the Holy Ghost. No Hell as other Christians have.

To be able to go the Celestial Kingdom, one must have a temple recommend and there is an expiration date. When it expires the member has to go their Bishop and/or Stake President and answer worthiness questions and they either pass or fail. Fail, no recommend for you and if you don't ever qualify for one again..no Celestial Heaven/residing with Heavenly Father for you.

Probably more than anybody wants or needs to know about Mormonism but I point the above out to say that it is a big, big deal to sin. I don't think the religion aspect brought up in this trial is to victimize TA. TA was living a double life so he could keep his good standing in his church JMHO

But like Christianity there is a way to make up for it, right?

I'd still bet there are a Ton Of Mormons running around that aren't virgins. After all, human beings are sexual beings.

 

[Lucylu7]

But the dynamic of their relationship does not matter anything at all in determining this woman's guilt! That is not a factor to be considered in this case.

What are things to consider- is this self defense? Was Travis violent before? etc. Or if she was arguing diminished capacity what evidence supports that.

Would you sit on a jury in a rape case and consider if the outfit the victim wore "enticed" the defendant(s) too much and she therefore deserved to be raped or was asking for it? Hopefully you won't consider that type of evidence. There is no difference in the scenario I just described above than what the defense is trying to do to the victim in this case.

Whether or not Travis was a bad person (I'm not even saying he is or was) is not an element to consider in convicting Jodi. Just as you indicated that Jodi and Travis had a complex relationship it's also important to note that individuals themselves can be complex. Travis was neither all bad nor all good he was probably a mixture of both.

Having said that, as an observer of this trial, I'm interested only in the evidence or the elements that need to be proven in this case to either prove first degree murder or self defense. I'm not at all interested in if Travis was a player, a ladies man, a bad Mormon, or a bad boyfriend. But if he WAS violent before I want to hear that evidence, if it exists.

I think what you just indicated above is why defense attys routinely bash or blame a victim because it works. And really all it does is muddy the waters. It distracts jurors from focusing on what elements need to be proven to convict or to acquit.

Great post!Sometimes we do get distracted by things that really don't matter.

 

[popsicle]

I seriously can't keep up with this thread because it is moving so fast, just wanted to drop in out of my lurking and thank everyone for their input! and for the links
<3

come join us.....

 

[Curious Me]

IIRC, Ryan Burns her alibi lover said Jodi mentioned Travis was the second guy that had cheated on her. Now, I'm curious about the first guy...is he still alive? Will we hear from her 4 yr. relationship guy she left for Travis?

 

[gitana1]

When and under what circumstances did she change her story and admit to doing the murder? tia

Does anyone know over what period of time did Jodi's stories change. I know the "I wasnt' there" story was shortly after Travis was found, but what about the "masked intruders" and the "I did it" stories. Were they all in 2008? Thanks

The first we heard that she admitted to killing Travis was in opening statements. She never, to my knowledge, admitted this to police. As to the rest, this is a very comprehensive, excellent article which includes a timeline: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/29/jodi-arias_n_1174274.html

Yeah but how many days did it take you to come to that conclusion? Ok maybe not days but it did not occur to you right away, so I am to think that Jodie came up with it, maybe she did but I will never be able to wrap my head around how stupid it was to delete pics. And surely she did not think Tide would eliminate all the pics.

Removing a memory card takes a split second, actually deleting pics using a camera's multi-delete function takes longer. Everyone's knows, at least I thought did, that when you delete something it is simply just moved, easily recoverable.

Just take the damn card! One second and she would have her trophy pics for later.

This is why I say there is not premeditation, planning of a crime.....HOWEVER I admit that there is premeditation in the form that can be made in a split second and then extreme rage and over-kill No doubt a jury will want to make someone pay for what happened from the pics in evidence, and that person is Jodie.

My guess is that she didn't want to drive away with any evidence in her hands. Not even for a moment. But it sure doesn;t make sense.

In any event, I'm sure glad she didn't take the darn card! Criminals are so dumb. They usually overestimate their own intelligence in relation to everyone else's.

I know for me personally there is nothing, NOTHING, "fun" about a murder victim. While there may be some "fun" posts about how cute the ME is or a joke about something else it has nothing to do with what happened to the victim. It is a way to remain sane when having the harsh reality of a cold-blooded killer and their "handy work" in your face. Why do we follow these cases if it is hard to deal with? Because someone has to give a d@mn. Someone has to remember the victim, stand up for the victim, say that it is not right at all what happened to the victim. Someone has to witness the horror so that the victim is not forgotten. Have some already made up their minds about Jodi's guilt? You bet'cha! After all, Jodi herself (finally after numerous lies before) has admitted to her own guilt. The pictures really are worth a thousand words. There was ALOT of rage involved in this killing. ALOT. And when a defendant is fighting for their lives (death penalty) they of course are going to fight with any underhanded means they can think of. How many defendants have actually stood in court after being charged in a first degree murder case where the death penalty is an option and said, "Yes, I killed them in cold blood because I wanted to, because they didn't give me what I wanted, because I felt like killing them."? How many instead use some sort of excuse for their crime? How many of them blame the victim?

I am interested in knowing if Jodi has any proof of Travis being abusive to her. Does she have anyone that has witnessed any sort of abuse? During the opening statement of the defense did they say that they would be calling witnesses that saw the abuse? Or are they simply relying on the word of a liar who has every reason to lie since she is facing the death penalty?

MOO

I think she must take the stand to present evidence of self defense. But I have a feeling her very vocal sister will get on the stand and lie her pants off about what she has witnessed (bruising, fear, etc.). She may have other relations take the stand and lie like mad as well.

I don't see her sister in the audience which is probably a good indicator she will testify.

I would love to see that ,but I don't expect to see Jodi take the stand.They said the same thing in Casey's trial and she didn't take the stand.Sure would be great to watch tho!

I kind of think she has to here. I mean, she can have witnesses testify that she discussed being abused but when it comes to fear of imminent harm at the moment Travis was killed, unless someone besides the murderer and victim were there, jodi has to testify:

Lamm believes Arias will eventually have to take the stand in her own defense and explain her actions.

"In Arizona, the defense has to raise self-defense, and the prosecution has to come back and rebut it," Lamm said. "But... (there were) two people in that room and Travis Alexander is dead."

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Expert...es-Jodi-Arias-Defense-Strategy-186051422.html

Imo, this is going to be one of the easiest cases to prove premeditation. You are right premeditation can be formed within a minutes time or as long as it takes for the mind to formulate the idea and then carry it out. Everything in this case points directly to premeditation planned days before when she stole her grandparent's gun.

Jurors dont buy into coincidences....they believe that everything is done for a purpose in a murder trial. The very fact that shortly before Travis was murdered a 25 caliber gun happened to be stolen from the very place she lived shows premeditation. Then Travis only a few days later is.......oops killed by none other than a .25 caliber weapon. The jury will not dismiss that fact. Nor that the knife was never found at the scene of the crime.

She goes 90 miles to rent a vehicle and is a blonde then when she meets with her potential new lover she is a brunette. She and Travis are no longer an item yet her palm print is going to be found at the crime scene maybe even in blood. I also believe her DNA where she cut her fingers in her psycho slashing slaughter will be found at the murder scene.

So if she was really defending herself from a larger male it would be she who would have the extensive defensive wounds instead it is the victim, Travis, who has defensive wounds where he frantically tried to save his life.

As the abuse expert stated on IS yesterday Travis was 30 years old yet everyone who knew him including women who had dated him said Travis was anything but violent and aggressive. Not one person that really knew Travis ..even dating him is going to say he was ever abusive to anyone. The abuse excuse is one of the most terrible defense agruments Ive seen especially being used in this case......with the evidence that exist shows she was the stalker and ultimate abuser in that relationship.

This is a case filled with evil and a woman determined to seek revenge on a man she knew she could never have. She wanted the prestige, the big nice house, the fancy cars, the nice trips, and most of all she wanted to own Travis.

When she knew he was going on with his life without her in it she premeditated her heinous cruel acts and then carried them out.

Just listening to this revolting creature there is psycophathic behavior present. The way she lies with ease......the way she laughs yet is supposed to be so distraught over Travis's death... . going onto another man just hours after she had murdered another man shows she has no conscience or remorse. She fakes it because even she knows she has to mimic normalcy however she is very inept at doing so and what she said not only is lies but comes across as bizarre.

She tells the Detective that Travis urged her to face her fear of firearms. An abusive man doesnt want his real victim harmed so Arias is the biggest liar about being abused by Travis.

I can see this evil woman standing over him as he lay dying and shooting him in the face and telling him "Well Travis you were right......I did get over my fear of using a gun.':furious:

She is diabolical. A wolf in sheep's clothing and I know the jury is going to do the right thing this time. This will not be another CA injustice. She's in Sheriff Joe's country this time. No namby pamby jurors. They will not be fooled by lies.

IMO

Yeah, that's the thing, I don't watch Nancy Grace. But I do watch a lot of trials and I have read a lot of books, and have researched criminality and psychopathology and sociopathology. Only a person who is devoid of normal, human empathy and emotion can brutally murder someone and then go dry hump another guy the next day and calmly and coldly lie about their actions in flip conversations with detectives, five days later.

It's not rocket science. Her behavior evidences what she is.

Yes it is a trait of someone love-obsessed or insecure. When I was much younger (in my early 30s), I found myself in a similar break-up as Jodi's with Travis. It doesn't sound like you've been there. But I have...

I can identify 100% with thinking you've FINALLY found Mr. Right, only for him to break it off, leaving you completely bewildered. I can totally identify with needing to stop yourself from hurting someone -- either yourself or the guy...

Many years ago I had a man "promise me the world," then POOF! -- he dropped me like a hot potato. Years later, I realize that he did it because, like Jodi, I had snooped in his personal belongings. Yes, I was INSECURE in this relationship. I lacked confidence and went looking for evidence that he was cheating... And Eureka: I found it!

When I realized it was over, I was beyond devastated. But unlike Jodi: 1) I was raised in a Christian home, and 2) I had too much to lose career-wise to go and hurt him back.

I could have driven to his home and smacked the crap out of the guy. I was angry, fed up with trying to figure out love, and ticked because I felt tricked by a playboy.

But instead of driving to this guy's house to hurt him, I got in my car and literally cried for 500 miles back to my hometown -- to the one place I could feel love. It was the closest I've ever felt to having a mental breakdown... He broke my soul. I could have become violent, but I didn't.

Jodi possibly cried her miles and miles to and/or from Travis' home. But she lacked whatever that is that keeps most women from acting criminally.

My main point: Having your heart broken can drive you off the deep end and make you want to hurt someone. Love isn't a fragrant bed of roses for a lot of people. It can turn ugly.

Many people have been in your position. (I also have had horrible heartbreak though it's never made me want to hurt someone). But the facts thus far in this case do not show evidence that jodi arias was a heartbroken mess of a woman who drove, sobbing to her ex boyfriend's house where she, what, are you saying that when she got their she flew into a passionate, desperate rage and suddenly killed him because her grief (and possible other issues) drove her to murder?

First, there is evidence that arias faked the theft of her grandparent's gun, one week before the murder, the same caliber gun that was used to shoot Travis.

Two, there is evidence that she drove 90 miles to rent a car, which she then flipped the license plates on, instead of using her own car, to drive hundreds of miles to see Travis. This show premeditation and that is not the conduct of a sobbing, out of control with heartbreak person.

Third, there is evidence that jodi, after savagely murdering Travis, went to another guys' house the next day and calmly dry humped him. After dying her hair. Don't you think that a person who was not simply evil, but instead was driven to murder due to unbearable heartbreak, would be incapable of calmly dry humping some guy the very next day?

And what about her bizarrely emotionless and cold interviews with detectives in the days just following the vicious murder. Does that evidence a person so sodden with heartache that they lost their mind and snapped or does it evidence an evil, methodical person who is glad they did what they did and doesn't believe they will ever get caught?

Mary Winkler is one that came to mind. I'm sure there are many.

Well, Mary Winkler said she was abused and a jury believed her. I'm not sure I do, though. At least not to the extent she was and certainly not on the day she shot him in his sleep.

BBM. We don't know whether she has any proof. That's the gazillion dollar question. The opening statement by the defense (which is not evidence) was general, and did not provide many specifics, so we have yet to know what will be presented and/or who will testify other than that a DV expert witness.

Maybe that means JA will testify, which is wrought with obvious issues.

Who knows what the defense will present? We have to wait.

I wonder if a LWOP deal was offered to the defendant previously and rejected by her.

 

[Linda7NJ]

IIRC, Ryan Burns her alibi lover said Jodi mentioned Travis was the second guy that had cheated on her. Now, I'm curious about the first guy...is he still alive? Will we hear from her 4 yr. relationship guy she left for Travis?

She left, that's the operative phrase.

IMO you can believe a word that comes out of her mouth.

 

[popsicle]

I don't know, was that rage an accumulation of a hell of a lot built up anger?

Sure would like to know what those two twins in the back of the courtroom know about Jodi Arias.

That rage was because he didn't die from the knife to the heart. jmo

 

[indicat]

My gosh. Imagine this: He's in the shower, naked, with a girl taking photos of him, urging him on, "This will be so sexy, baby." Then BAM, she stabs him in the heart. In shock, he grabs the knife and stumbles up, to get away, to get a breath, to live, to survive. He lurches, with minutes of life left, to the sink, where he futilely coughs up blood, straining to breathe, hoping he will make it. But, to make matters impossibly worse, he begins to jerk as he feels the knife being stabbed viciously into his back, once, twice, three times, four, five six, seven, on and on and on.

His life blood is literally slipping away, but the human instinct to try to survive is great, so he claws around and weak-kneed, falls slowly to the ground. He continues to feel the knife stabbing him, and he can't stop it, but he crawls, pathetically trying to get away. Then, the worst of it all, he feels his murderer straddle him. What is she going to do know? In a second, he knows as he feels her hand jerk his scalp back and feels the knife slice into his neck, so strong, so hard, that his head is almost cut off. He sinks to the ground and he dies. His body is then dragged back to the place he tried to escape and a bullet is put into his face, into his brain. One last indignity.

This happened to a man. A human being. A once sad kid who had druggie parents but who was miraculously rescued by his grandmother who loved him and his siblings and taught them her faith which became so important to him. He was imperfect, and had faults. He was possibly even hypocritical at times. But he had dreams like we all did. He saw a bright future filled with kids and love and life. He was a brother, a grandson, a friend. And as his body was slashed to death in a shower stall, ALL of that was taken from him.

THAT is disgusting. THAT is horrific. That is one of the saddest things imaginable.[/
QUOTE]

Wow, that was so powerful!! Thank you for putting that in the correct and very heartwrenching perspective. It was much need!

 

[Linda7NJ]

The first we heard that she admitted to killing Travis was in opening statements. She never, to my knowledge, admitted this to police. As to the rest, this is a very comprehensive, excellent article which includes a timeline: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/29/jodi-arias_n_1174274.html



My guess is that she didn't want to drive away with any evidence in her hands. Not even for a moment. But it sure doesn;t make sense.

In any event, I'm sure glad she didn't take the darn card! Criminals are so dumb. They usually overestimate their own intelligence in relation to everyone else's.



I think she must take the stand to present evidence of self defense. But I have a feeling her very vocal sister will get on the stand and lie her pants off about what she has witnessed (bruising, fear, etc.). She may have other relations take the stand and lie like mad as well.

I don't see her sister in the audience which is probably a good indicator she will testify.



I kind of think she has to here. I mean, she can have witnesses testify that she discussed being abused but when it comes to fear of imminent harm at the moment Travis was killed, unless someone besides the murderer and victim were there, jodi has to testify: http://www.azfamily.com/news/Expert...es-Jodi-Arias-Defense-Strategy-186051422.html



Yeah, that's the thing, I don't watch Nancy Grace. But I do watch a lot of trials and I have read a lot of books, and have researched criminality and psychopathology and sociopathology. Only a person who is devoid of normal, human empathy and emotion can brutally murder someone and then go dry hump another guy the next day and calmly and coldly lie about their actions in flip conversations with detectives, five days later.

It's not rocket science. Her behavior evidences what she is.



Many people have been in your position. (I also have had horrible heartbreak though it's never made me want to hurt someone). But the facts thus far in this case do not show evidence that jodi arias was a heartbroken mess of a woman who drove, sobbing to her ex boyfriend's house where she, what, are you saying that when she got their she flew into a passionate, desperate rage and suddenly killed him because her grief (and possible other issues) drove her to murder?

First, there is evidence that arias faked the theft of her grandparent's gun, one week before the murder, the same caliber gun that was used to shoot Travis.

Two, there is evidence that she drove 90 miles to rent a car, which she then flipped the license plates on, instead of using her own car, to drive hundreds of miles to see Travis. This show premeditation and that is not the conduct of a sobbing, out of control with heartbreak person.

Third, there is evidence that jodi, after savagely murdering Travis, went to another guys' house the next day and calmly dry humped him. After dying her hair. Don't you think that a person who was not simply evil, but instead was driven to murder due to unbearable heartbreak, would be incapable of calmly dry humping some guy the very next day?

And what about her bizarrely emotionless and cold interviews with detectives in the days just following the vicious murder. Does that evidence a person so sodden with heartache that they lost their mind and snapped or does it evidence an evil, methodical person who is glad they did what they did and doesn't believe they will ever get caught?



Well, Mary Winkler said she was abused and a jury believed her. I'm not sure I do, though. At least not to the extent she was and certainly not on the day she shot him in his sleep.

Again, the thanks button just wast enough!!!

 

[LinasK]

I know. I was not/am not justifying anything she did. Just wondering.

You know, I bought into Casey Anthony's sexual abuse claims too at first, until I heard the opening statements, then I knew it was all a crock of BS!!!

 

[GobBluth]

Ok, I keep hearing what posters think the jury will decide as to the DP, but I thought that the judge makes that decision after a second "trial" (held if defendent found guilty of 1st degree murder only) is held. Am I wrong? It is very possible that I am, just trying to clarify it for myself. I thought that the jury only made judgment in the guilt phase of the trial process.

From what I have read, in Arizona, 1st degree murder in this case would need premeditation. The premeditation would be ANY amount of time, long or short, that would allow for ANY amount of reflection before the commission of the crime.

Then there are 10 factors that would qualify a case for the DP, and only ONE is needed. IMO, the factor that they are using is that the crime was committed in "an especially heinous, cruel, or depraved manner."

So, if premeditation is determined, then 1st degree murder verdict from jury. If 1st degree murder verdict, then the aggravation and mitigation hearing with the judge only, and where victims impact testimony is allowed. If judge finds crime committed in an especially heinous, cruel, or depraved manner, then the DP is quite possible from the judge.

Please correct my errors, as my limited research might have been completely outdated or something. TIA.

 

[popsicle]

IIRC, Ryan Burns her alibi lover said Jodi mentioned Travis was the second guy that had cheated on her. Now, I'm curious about the first guy...is he still alive? Will we hear from her 4 yr. relationship guy she left for Travis?

Or maybe it's another big fat lie or hers

 

[PASA]

That it's very very different to be there live than it is to read about it or even to see the live video!

I read back several pages and notice that my impressions of several things seem different than the impressions of the posters who were watching the same thing, and also felt that my own impressioms would probably nhave bee different if I hadn't physically been there.

Jodi is TINY and the prosecutor is very, very, short. The jurors were very attentive for the most part and Nurmi (?) was wearing purple argyle socks lol

Idk where to begin, but if anyone has a question about something they didn't catch, or whatever, I might be able to answer.

btw, the first recess was b/c the pros had to go fetch the next witness anyway. The witnesses from Mesa LE were seated together just outside the courtroom. I know b/c one of them had an Iphone and helped me make sure my new phone was fully silent before I went in lol I didn't know they were witnesses at the time. I actually talked to all three of them (the ones from Mesa, not the friend from Utah). I do have his business card, though!

eta: should say the first recess after lunch. I wasn't there this a.m., I was here !

I may try to attend one day. Thanks for the info.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Do we have witness lists from the defense?

Her sister, domestic violence expert, maybe 4 year dude....

Who else?

 

[bobloblaw]

I have hated that the sex seems to have become such an issue in this case. These were two consenting adults. The religious aspect is entered in this case for no other purpose than to victimize the victim all over again. He was a Morman but he was also a healthy 30 year old man with human weaknesses. Big deal... that makes him just like a lot of other people who sin everyday but still believe in God.

I think she was the great manipulator. She thought if she could lure him into becoming addicted to her sex ploys that he would be controlled by her and stay with her but even he knew Jodi Arias was not what he really needed in a wife. All she was ........was easy peasy shoving 'it" in his face and coming through doggie doors to creep into his bed as he lay sleeping.

I dont blame Travis whatsoever for his own death. He did the right thing......even talking her into moving far away from him. They both knew the attraction was nothing more than a sexual attraction even though Jodi tried to pretend there was more there than there was. Jodi knew it and he did too ....both felt like sex toys. But in Jodi's obsessed (Glenn Close) mind she really thought she could use sex as a control tool to snare the man she wanted because Travis's future was bright, exciting, and promising and her life without Travis was mundane and average at best.

FGS! They just dated for 5 months and werent even engaged. He really had no committment to her whatsoever.

IMO

I'm surprised she didn't try to lure him with pregnancy...

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm surprised she didn't try to lure him with pregnancy...

Trap?

Shiver....

 

[MsCharlieChan]

Yes I wonder, running away, sexual promiscuity, was she sexually abused?

Agree. Whether she was possibly molested doesn't matter in this trial. But as a society, we'd benefit from learning something like this.

Unfortunately, we're seeing sexual predators are everywhere, and can be just about anybody -- holy priests, revered football coaches, lovely high school teachers, you name it.

If Jodi is sick due to having been sexually abused as a child, this would be a teachable moment for all of us. Parents, in particular, need to see how screwed up their children can become if they let sneaky weirdos get a hold of them.

 

[Linda7NJ]

She totaled his car! The BMW...and he handled it great! Only asked her to pay $100 a month!

But he was going to KILL her over a camera?

It's laughable!

 

[LaneGirl]

But like Christianity there is a way to make up for it, right?

I'd still bet there are a Ton Of Mormons running around that aren't virgins. After all, human beings are sexual beings.

Please any Mormons correct me if I'm wrong....

Making up for it is really difficult. I think they have to confess if found out. Also there is shunning involved even family members will shun them.

I'm sure there are some that aren't virgins but I believe most are encouraged to marry soon after adulthood to prevent premarital sex. If one's work/social/family life is closley tied to their religious beliefs I could totally see where anyone would try to keep that secret so they weren't shunned. Also if they truely held these beliefs I could see confict from within. Powerful natural urges vs. beliefs. Much stricter than most religions.