John did not sexually abuse JonBenet

[Toltec]

Yes the grandfather, and I think he had begun on Patsy some 30 years earlier.

And what I forgot to put in my post was that I think it was when John was away that the abuse would take place because the abusers would have felt safer at these times. All the more reason for JonBenet to cry about her father being away so often which was where this thread began. Not only did she miss his loving attention when he was away but she got abused as well by opportunistic pedophiles IMO.

What opportunist pedophiles are you thinking of???

First of all, Patsy loved her daughter as did John. She would never allow men to molest her daughter...No pedophile ring, period.

The murder was an accident turned cover-up.

 

[aussiesheila]

What opportunist pedophiles are you thinking of???

First of all, Patsy loved her daughter as did John. She would never allow men to molest her daughter...No pedophile ring, period.

The murder was an accident turned cover-up.

I have mentioned the two who I believe were her most frequent abusers earlier in this thread. I theorise that Patsy allowed these men to look after her daughter and didn't consider what might have been going on while she was in their care and JonBenet was not going to tell Patsy and neither was anyone else and so the abuse went on for years. I don't know why you find it so improbable that Patsy was capable of behaving like this. Mothers who are caught up in the web of intra-family relationships and conflicts, not wanting to see things they don't want to see. It happens all the time and all the more likely in Patsy's case because IMO she was a victim of child sexual abuse at the hands of her father and had never dealt with it and seemingly didn't want to deal with it. In denying JonBenet's abuse she was protecting herself in a way.

I am not saying that the kind of sadistic and violent activity that occurred on the night of the 25th was what normally took place. Any abuse her regular molesters had inflicted left no tell tale signs other than trivial things like vaginal redness which everyone knows can be caused by bubble bath or urinary tract infections which she obviously got from not wiping properly.

I think the event on the 25th was actually organised by someone else, someone who had been dying to get his hands on JonBenet but had not had the opportunity before. I am talking about the person who said he was going to make a secret visit after Christmas. I think he got together his own little group and had not screened his choices adquately, one of them turned out to be a real sadist and I think it was because of him that she died.

 

[rashomon]

When "one" reads Steve's deposition , the line where he admits to being a liar is important. He calls his lies "factual errors".

Sissi, this info is not only in Steve Thomas' book (whom I would in no way call a liar), but can also be found in other sources on the internet. A panel of medical experts were shown slides of tissue, and if memory serves, five out of the seven experts agreed that some of the injuries in JB's vagina were 'old injuries'.
Cyril Wecht was among those who agreed, and also Dr. McCann, a world-renowned pediatric expert.
What remained of JonBenet's hymen was only a rim of tissue extending from the 10 o'clock position to the 14 o'clock position. This is highly unusual in a six-year-old child and points to chronic sexual abuse.

 

[Seeker]

rashmom, I believe in the autopsy report it says there is a rim of mucosal tissue (hymen) from the 2 o'clock position to the 10 o'clock position. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet4.html

That means she had about 3/4 of her hymen still intact. If she were the victim of ongoing sexual abuse why wasn't all of her hymen missing? Her vaginal vault was also normal (unremarkable) with that one small abrasion (probably from the digital penetration that night) at the 7 o'clock position.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet6.html

 

[Solace]

Sissi, this info is not only in Steve Thomas' book (whom I would in no way call a liar), but can also be found in other sources on the internet. A panel of medical experts were shown slides of tissue, and if memory serves, five out of the seven experts agreed that some of the injuries in JB's vagina were 'old injuries'.
Cyril Wecht was among those who agreed, and also Dr. McCann, a world-renowned pediatric expert.
What remained of JonBenet's hymen was only a rim of tissue extending from the 10 o'clock position to the 14 o'clock position. This is highly unusual in a six-year-old child and points to chronic sexual abuse.

Hi Rash,

Steve Thomas says he had a "panel" of experts who agreed that there was prior sexual abuse. He says this on Larry King Live and also in his book. Dr. Wecht delves into the abuse in two paragraphs towards the end of his book (which I do not have with me). He explains why some of the abuse is new (24 hrs.) and some within the past few days. Says some is chronic and some acute and he explains the difference. His explanation is what led me to believe that there is prior abuse.

JB did have chronic vaginitis. I do not know how this would effect her as far as infections (which would be chronic and painful). She would contstantly be scratching, but whether she could have inflicted this herself, I don't believe so. I think someone did the abuse thing on the 24th to make the scene look like an outsider and possibly to cover prior abuse, if there were prior abuse. I am leaning to there was.

 

[sharpar]

rashmom, I believe in the autopsy report it says there is a rim of mucosal tissue (hymen) from the 2 o'clock position to the 10 o'clock position. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet4.html

That means she had about 3/4 of her hymen still intact. If she were the victim of ongoing sexual abuse why wasn't all of her hymen missing? Her vaginal vault was also normal (unremarkable) with that one small abrasion (probably from the digital penetration that night) at the 7 o'clock position.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet6.html

So you agree with Nedra she was only a little abused ? A six year old should have her entire hymen intact. Are you not aware that sexual abuse can occur without any trauma ? There also shouldnt be any abrasions .
The fact they are there shouts abuse. The idea that it was bubble baths
or bike riding or whatever other excuses have been given is insulting and is one more injustice for that child.

 

[Solace]

So you agree with Nedra she was only a little abused ? A six year old should have her entire hymen intact. Are you not aware that sexual abuse can occur without any trauma ? There also shouldnt be any abrasions .
The fact they are there shouts abuse. The idea that it was bubble baths
or bike riding or whatever other excuses have been given is insulting and is one more injustice for that child.

Yes, I can see how bubblebaths really caused this chronic vaginitis. It had absolutely nothing to do with urine in her underwear basically pretty much all the time. What is a little urine turned to ammonia to a child's skin.

It has to be the bubblebath; bubble bath is much more caustic. And so what if she saw the doctor approximately 33 times in 3 years - As John Ramsey said, no big deal. And as Patsy said, no I don't recall discussing this with JB's doctor - I don't recall discussing this with anyone at all. What's all the fuss about, so she had a little vaginitis. Geez.

 

[Seeker]

So you agree with Nedra she was only a little abused ? A six year old should have her entire hymen intact. Are you not aware that sexual abuse can occur without any trauma ? There also shouldnt be any abrasions .
The fact they are there shouts abuse. The idea that it was bubble baths
or bike riding or whatever other excuses have been given is insulting and is one more injustice for that child.

No I don't agree with Nedra. I think she was probably just abused that last night. The autopsy states her vagina was "unremarkable". I don't assume that JB even had a whole hymen to begin with. It was very enlightening to find out that not all girls are born with a complete or intact hymen when this subject came up back in 2000 and was thouroughly researched by many members of FFJ.
They also found during research that sexually abused little girls are not outgoing or as talkative as JB was.
Little girls I knew that later told about their own sexual abuse by their dad (years after he died) were never outgoing or talkative either now that I think about it.

 

[truecrime]

check our www.coolnurse.com and type in hymen.
interesting reading.

 

[truecrime]

Take that back. Click on glossary, look up hymen and click on thin.
sorry..............

 

[twinkiesmom]

If you're going to go to the trouble of making theories, you should at least view the autopsy photos and get an MD's take on the autopsy findings.


The garotte was not just a staging devise, it was tightly wrapped around her neck while she was still alive. There are half moon like abrasions that could indicate that she had tried to loosen the garotte herself.

You can not have a head injury that severe (basically the whole top of her head fractured) with only a few teaspoons or tablespoons of blood with the heart still pumping blood to the head at the same time.

If you want to discount Wecht, fine, but come up with an explanation that doesn't defy physics and medicine.

 

[UKGuy]

If you're going to go to the trouble of making theories, you should at least view the autopsy photos and get an MD's take on the autopsy findings.

3/4 of the hymen was missing, not 1/4 lost.

The garotte was not just a staging devise, it was tightly wrapped around her neck while she was still alive. There are half moon like abrasions that could indicate that she had tried to loosen the garotte herself.

You can not have a head injury that severe (basically the whole top of her head fractured) with only a few teaspoons or tablespoons of blood with the heart still pumping blood to the head at the same time.

If you want to discount Wecht, fine, but come up with an explanation that doesn't defy physics and medicine.

twinkiesmom,

What you say seems quite sensible to me.

Do you have a source for :
The garotte was not just a staging devise, it was tightly wrapped around her neck while she was still alive.

The alive aspect is contentious unless you were actually there?

Also Dr John Meyer never explicitly stated she was asphyxiated by Ligature strangulation

If he had been confident that this had been the case it would have been stated in the autopsy!

.

 

[twinkiesmom]

The first page of the autopsy report documents ligature strangulation...the cause of death was asphyxia due to strangulation...They can tell the difference between trauma occurring while she was alive vs. after death.

 

[sissi]

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...+two+oclock&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6&ie=UTF-8

Note 1: The sulcus is the area around the glans of the clitoris. Redness here means nothing.
Note 2: These are common normal variants, like having a split in your chin. If the bump is about the same color as the nearby tissue, it can't be a scar. I would have added that notches in the anterior half of the hymen (i.e., 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock with the patient supine) mean nothing.

Note 3: The anterior hymenal rim may be very slim or absent as a normal variant; this was the case with JonBenet Ramsey and the pathologist recognized it as normal.

Note 4: I read testimony of one examiner who said that thickening implied scarring and thus prior abuse. This flunks introductory "Pathology" in medical school. Scar usually contracts. Estrogen renders the hymen thicker and more redundant / wrinkly so it stretches easier.

 

[rashomon]

rashmom, I believe in the autopsy report it says there is a rim of mucosal tissue (hymen) from the 2 o'clock position to the 10 o'clock position. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet4.html

Thanks Seeker for pointing that out. I had misread it.
From the autopsy report:

"The hymen itself is represented by rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 position."

So this would in fact mean that two thirds of JB's hymen were still intact.

 

[truecrime]

I hope that you all didn't mind that I posted that web on the hymen. I thought it was very interesting reading. I want to tell you all that I am really thankful to be reading something on the web about this case. I didn't think to check into a forum. I have been following this case for many years. Seems like the last couple of years I have had other things on my mind like many different family deaths. I'm blabbling, Just wanted to say thanks for the reading and insight. I just purchased two books mention around JonBenet (Steve Thomas) and Who killed JonBenet Ramsey by the doctor. :doh: I didn't realize these two books were even out. Thanks Again.:clap: :woohoo:

 

[rashomon]

I hope that you all didn't mind that I posted that web on the hymen. I thought it was very interesting reading. I want to tell you all that I am really thankful to be reading something on the web about this case. I didn't think to check into a forum. I have been following this case for many years. Seems like the last couple of years I have had other things on my mind like many different family deaths. I'm blabbling, Just wanted to say thanks for the reading and insight. I just purchased two books mention around JonBenet (Steve Thomas) and Who killed JonBenet Ramsey by the doctor. :doh: I didn't realize these two books were even out. Thanks Again.:clap: :woohoo:

It is we who have to thank you, truecrime, for directing us to the excellent website www.coolnurse.com. This is a very informative site.

 

[UKGuy]

The first page of the autopsy report documents ligature strangulation...the cause of death was asphyxia due to strangulation...They can tell the difference between trauma occurring while she was alive vs. after death.

twinkiesmom,

Yes the autopsy documents Ligature Strangulation, which is unremarkable given a ligature has been looped around her neck.

But Dr John Meyer does not state that Ligature Strangulation was the cause of death.

His report concludes:

CLINOCOPATHOLIGICAL CORRELATION:

Cause of death of this six year old female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma.

Coroner Meyer on issuing this report would be fully aware of precisely what he was releasing, with possible requests to withold or redact particular details. This is not an uncommon practise.

This is why Detective Linda Arndt's recollection that Coroner Meyer used the phrase digital penetration in the affidavit is important, since it references opinion not stated in the autopsy report.

.

 

[aussiesheila]

I suspect the grandfather as well, but not FW, and really aussiesheila, I'd love to hear why you suspect FW so much. What is it about him that makes you think he was molesting JonBenet? Opportunity? JB was around him a lot because his daughter was her best friend. Was he part of the ring of pedophiles? You do know he and his family were cleared, don't you?

Nuisanceposter, in answer to your question about FW, I have started another thread. I do know he and his family were cleared, but it was because he fronted up at the DA's office and demanded to be. I think they did it to get him off their backs and privately one of them said that they would just 'unclear' him if the need ever arose.

 

[LinasK]

Wecht, like all of us, has feet of clay, as well.

He had a theory that the garrote was a sex game gone wrong. He believes that someone was using that choking game on JB during sex play and she died. So he naturally then concludes the head blow came last, for cover up.

But the truth is the swelling in the brain and the contracoup (that may be the wrong word/spelling, but it's something like that, meaning the brain was damaged by the impact, like shaken baby syndrome) injuries prove JB was alive after the head blow. The amount of blood is debatable in a time frame, with some experts saying she could have died up to an hour and a half after the head blow.

This poster at Forums for Justice has confirmed that Cyril Wecht agrees with my theory!:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: