John did not sexually abuse JonBenet

[aussiesheila]

The Maglite really makes me wonder. The Rs didn't recognize it, but they would have tried to claim to not recognize JonBenet herself if that would have made them look less guilty.

They owned a flashlight very similar, if not the same.

The Maglite at the scene had been thoroughly wiped down, including the batteries inside, which indicates to me that it may have very well been the instrument that fractured JonBenet's skull.

The hardest thing for an RDI like me (I subscribe closely to ST's theory - I believe she was hit first then strangled, but what hit her?) to figure out is - if the killer was a Ramsey, why would s/he have the flashlight on hand to crack JB's skull with, if indeed that was the item?

Perhaps Patsy went to have JonBenet use the toilet during the night as was her custom and had the flashlight for that, instead of turning on lights when people are asleep. But then I think, wasn't there a bathroom right off JonBenet's room? Was it Burke's custom to have his bedroom door shut while he was sleeping? Would having a light on even have bothered him?

What about JonBenet's personal flashlight? I believe I read, and I'll go check DOI as soon as I get done with this, that JB had a flashlight in her room that was kept there for if she needed it.

Now I keep wondering about the sequence of events. I used to think JB was strangled, then hit...then I changed my mind and now I think it looks more like she was hit and then strangled. If she was strangled first then I could see the flashlight - the killer choked her near to death and then got the flashlight in consciousness of guilt and desire to be secretive and then cracked her head...but if she was hit first and then strangled, I have to wonder how the flashlight, if indeed the weapon, plays into it.

Sorry to ramble but there's so much endless odd stuff about this case that I can't help but ponder it all again and again.

Nuisanceposter, if it helps, as I remember it, Patsy was shown a photo of the Maglite that had been found on their kitchen counter in one of her police interviews but didn't recognise it as belonging to them because it was discoloured from the chemicals it had been treated with to try to get fingerprints. I think she agreed that the Maglite was theirs when this was explained to her in the interview.

WRT fingerprints, I think that if it is reported that no fingerprints were identified on an item at a crime scene it does not necessarily mean that there was a complete absence of any traces of any fingerprints on the item or that all traces of fingerprints had been wiped from it. I think it means rather, that there was an insufficient area of a complete print from any one finger or set of fingers to be adequately compared to a complete print or set of prints from a suspect to get 12 points of agreement or whatever the standard of requirement is for a match.

 

[aussiesheila]

I've been reading the autopry report and trying to make sense of the head injury. I see the part which mentions the 7-8ccs of blood, but it also mentions "extensive" haemorrhaging no the brain covering an area 7x4 inches. Do these both refer to the same area of bleeding?

Jayelles,

Referring to the external area of JonBenet's scalp, Meyer described 'an extensive area' of hemorrhage on the outside of the scalp 'measuring approximately 7 x 4 inches' around a fracture that 'measures approximately 8.5 inches in length'.

Beneath the dura mater, one of the membranes covering the brain 'a thin film of subdural hemorrhage measuring approximately 7-8 cc'.

Going deeper again to the arachnoid mater; beneath this membrane 'a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere'.

On the brain itself, 'the right cerebral hemisphere underlying the previously mentioned linear skull fracture is an extensive linear area of purple contusion'.

It all refers to the same area, each area underlies the other.

In terms of amounts of bleeding it is all minimal wrt what is possible, suggesting that at the time of the blow, the blood supply to the head was restricted because either there was something tied tightly around the neck or the heart had stopped beating or both.

 

[BBB167893]

"The three separate areas of bleeding were one underneath the other SuperDave, JonBenet was only hit over the head once."

I don't think I said otherwise, aussiesheila.

"Toltec, do you really think that an injury like that could have been made by a flashlight, even a large heavy one wielded by a strong person?"

You're obviously not familiar with the MagLite line of flashlights. These things are built like tanks! They run over them with trucks and drop them from buildings to test their durability! (Some of the commercials show this.)

"Wouldn't either the mass or the velocity have had to be very large to create a wound like that? I am having difficulty believing the force required could have been achieved with a torch and an arm swing."

There's one thing you left out: leverage. A person swinging at a target of equal height will produce a point of impact different from a target that's lower. Let me elaborate:

Let's say i come up behind someone with a baseball bat. I'm about 6'1", 235 lbs. Let's say target is same. Now, if I swing for his head, I'll swing from behind my right shoulder to my left (I'm right-handed), shifting my weight from back foot to forward foot.

BUT, if the target is much shorter, like a small child or a man on his knees, the swing will be different. I will plant both feet firmly in a wide stance with good balance, raise the object over my head like an ax, and bring it straight down on my central line, putting my back and shoulders into it with both arms exuding equal force.

Have I made my point?

"In terms of amounts of bleeding it is all minimal wrt what is possible, suggesting that at the time of the blow, the blood supply to the head was restricted because either there was something tied tightly around the neck or the heart had stopped beating or both."

There's one thing that doesn't wash with that: the autopsy revealed that the brain was swollen so greatly it had started to press against the skull, That takes time, and does not occur in a dead person.

 

[rashomon]

I've been reading the autopry report and trying to make sense of the head injury. I see the part which mentions the 7-8ccs of blood, but it also mentions "extensive" haemorrhaging no the brain covering an area 7x4 inches. Do these both refer to the same area of bleeding?

I'm not quite sure if I remember correctly, but I think this was in fact two areas: one where 'subdural bleeding' had occurred (the 7-8 ccs of blood?), and another area where 'subarachnoid bleeding' had occurred (the area covering 7x4 inches?). I think it is mentioned in Dr. Meyer's autopsy report.

 

[rashomon]

"The three separate areas of bleeding were one underneath the other SuperDave, JonBenet was only hit over the head once."

I don't think I said otherwise, aussiesheila.

"Toltec, do you really think that an injury like that could have been made by a flashlight, even a large heavy one wielded by a strong person?"

You're obviously not familiar with the MagLite line of flashlights. These things are built like tanks! They run over them with trucks and drop them from buildings to test their durability! (Some of the commercials show this.)

"Wouldn't either the mass or the velocity have had to be very large to create a wound like that? I am having difficulty believing the force required could have been achieved with a torch and an arm swing."

There's one thing you left out: leverage. A person swinging at a target of equal height will produce a point of impact different from a target that's lower. Let me elaborate:

Let's say i come up behind someone with a baseball bat. I'm about 6'1", 235 lbs. Let's say target is same. Now, if I swing for his head, I'll swing from behind my right shoulder to my left (I'm right-handed), shifting my weight from back foot to forward foot.

BUT, if the target is much shorter, like a small child or a man on his knees, the swing will be different. I will plant both feet firmly in a wide stance with good balance, raise the object over my head like an ax, and bring it straight down on my central line, putting my back and shoulders into it with both arms exuding equal force.

Have I made my point?

"In terms of amounts of bleeding it is all minimal wrt what is possible, suggesting that at the time of the blow, the blood supply to the head was restricted because either there was something tied tightly around the neck or the heart had stopped beating or both."

There's one thing that doesn't wash with that: the autopsy revealed that the brain was swollen so greatly it had started to press against the skull, That takes time, and does not occur in a dead person.

There is also this picture of Dr. Spitz on the net where he shows how the blow with the maglite probably was delivered: by a person who was standing over JB, who was in a sitting positon.

 

[BBB167893]

I think he meant to show the person was standing over her, period.

 

[Solace]

Sorry. A few years of this have made me a bit sensitive. I used to be an RST, you know.

But you give me an idea. That's probably the one thing I haven't tried yet!

What is an RST?

 

[BBB167893]

What is an RST?

RST- Ramsey Spin Team. Not to be confused with IDI-Intruder Did it. What separates the IDI from the RST is that the RST are basically attack dogs against anyone who would DARE accuse this loving, wealthy, white couple of anything other than being saints!

 

[Solace]

RST- Ramsey Spin Team. Not to be confused with IDI-Intruder Did it. What separates the IDI from the RST is that the RST are basically attack dogs against anyone who would DARE accuse this loving, wealthy, white couple of anything other than being saints!

Thanks SuperDave; I love your posts!

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks!

 

[aussiesheila]

"The three separate areas of bleeding were one underneath the other SuperDave, JonBenet was only hit over the head once."

I don't think I said otherwise, aussiesheila.

"Toltec, do you really think that an injury like that could have been made by a flashlight, even a large heavy one wielded by a strong person?"

You're obviously not familiar with the MagLite line of flashlights. These things are built like tanks! They run over them with trucks and drop them from buildings to test their durability! (Some of the commercials show this.)

"Wouldn't either the mass or the velocity have had to be very large to create a wound like that? I am having difficulty believing the force required could have been achieved with a torch and an arm swing."

There's one thing you left out: leverage. A person swinging at a target of equal height will produce a point of impact different from a target that's lower. Let me elaborate:

Let's say i come up behind someone with a baseball bat. I'm about 6'1", 235 lbs. Let's say target is same. Now, if I swing for his head, I'll swing from behind my right shoulder to my left (I'm right-handed), shifting my weight from back foot to forward foot.

BUT, if the target is much shorter, like a small child or a man on his knees, the swing will be different. I will plant both feet firmly in a wide stance with good balance, raise the object over my head like an ax, and bring it straight down on my central line, putting my back and shoulders into it with both arms exuding equal force.

Have I made my point?

"In terms of amounts of bleeding it is all minimal wrt what is possible, suggesting that at the time of the blow, the blood supply to the head was restricted because either there was something tied tightly around the neck or the heart had stopped beating or both."

There's one thing that doesn't wash with that: the autopsy revealed that the brain was swollen so greatly it had started to press against the skull, That takes time, and does not occur in a dead person.

Thanks for all your replies SuperDave I'm happy with all of them. Except for the last one - the swelling of the brain. I know there were 2 versions of the autopsy that came out, the first one wasn't complete and that might be the one I've got, but I can't find where it says the brain was swollen.

 

[aussiesheila]

Thanks SuperDave; I love your posts!

I must say I'm a bit partial to them as well. Wish we could get his brother on too.

 

[aussiesheila]

Yes, Aussie is correct, the amount of bleeding totaled 7cc, a teaspoon is 5cc.

Yeah, but I stuffed up a bit on where the scalp bleeding was and it's too late to edit the incorrect posts where I said the scalp bleeding was external to the scalp, I should have said it was 'underlying the scalp'

 

[aussiesheila]

The Maglite really makes me wonder. The Rs didn't recognize it, but they would have tried to claim to not recognize JonBenet herself if that would have made them look less guilty.

They owned a flashlight very similar, if not the same.

The Maglite at the scene had been thoroughly wiped down, including the batteries inside, which indicates to me that it may have very well been the instrument that fractured JonBenet's skull.

The hardest thing for an RDI like me (I subscribe closely to ST's theory - I believe she was hit first then strangled, but what hit her?) to figure out is - if the killer was a Ramsey, why would s/he have the flashlight on hand to crack JB's skull with, if indeed that was the item?

Perhaps Patsy went to have JonBenet use the toilet during the night as was her custom and had the flashlight for that, instead of turning on lights when people are asleep. But then I think, wasn't there a bathroom right off JonBenet's room? Was it Burke's custom to have his bedroom door shut while he was sleeping? Would having a light on even have bothered him?

What about JonBenet's personal flashlight? I believe I read, and I'll go check DOI as soon as I get done with this, that JB had a flashlight in her room that was kept there for if she needed it.

Now I keep wondering about the sequence of events. I used to think JB was strangled, then hit...then I changed my mind and now I think it looks more like she was hit and then strangled. If she was strangled first then I could see the flashlight - the killer choked her near to death and then got the flashlight in consciousness of guilt and desire to be secretive and then cracked her head...but if she was hit first and then strangled, I have to wonder how the flashlight, if indeed the weapon, plays into it.

Sorry to ramble but there's so much endless odd stuff about this case that I can't help but ponder it all again and again.

I wouldn't expect any RDI theorists to agree with this but I think the baseball bat should be given equal rating as the implement likely to have been used to inflict the head wound.

There was a non-Ramsey baseball bat found discarded in an area of the garden where the children did not play and it had fibres from the basement on it. Also I have much more confidence in the belief that this item was heavy enough to have caused the enormous damage to the skull bone. I just don't see this as being true for the Maglite, even if it was the largest size in the range and no matter how it was swung and no matter how strong or how mad the person who used it was.

I don't know why I singled out your post Nuisanceposter, for my reply as most people seem to be thinking along your lines. I guess the idea just came to me as I was reading your post.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I don't mind at all. =)

Perhaps the bat was just flung to where it was found by careless children. Who said it was non-Ramsey, the Rs themselves? I would think it would be theirs if it had their carpet fibers on it.

Why would the killer leave the bat behind?

 

[BBB167893]

Why, indeed, since he must have taken the cord, tape and stun gun with him, yet left the body!

"Thanks for all your replies SuperDave I'm happy with all of them. Except for the last one - the swelling of the brain. I know there were 2 versions of the autopsy that came out, the first one wasn't complete and that might be the one I've got, but I can't find where it says the brain was swollen."

Okay, here goes. In the autopsy report copy I have, it's quite a ways into it. It comes between the part about the subdural hemorrhage and the subarachnoid hemorrhage.

"I must say I'm a bit partial to them as well. Wish we could get his brother on too."

He'll think about it, but I don't know.

"I wouldn't expect any RDI theorists to agree with this but I think the baseball bat should be given equal rating as the implement likely to have been used to inflict the head wound."

Well, it's not that we don't think about it, but if you'll remember, Werner Spitz did several tests and found that the flashlight fit the wound perfectly. So, I guess you could say it has priority.

 

[aussiesheila]

I don't mind at all. =)

Perhaps the bat was just flung to where it was found by careless children. Who said it was non-Ramsey, the Rs themselves? I would think it would be theirs if it had their carpet fibers on it.

Why would the killer leave the bat behind?

In one of her interviews Patsy was shown a photo of the side of the house showing the baseball bat on the ground. She said it was most unusual for a bat to be there and that the children would not have left it there.

I could just see one of the perpetrators picking the baseball bat up from the floor (if it had been lying nearby) and hitting JonBenet over the head with it in absolute fury after she screamed, then storming out of the house carrying it with him, then once outside, realising he still had it in his hand, tossing it aside into the bushes, then continuing on across the road to his bedroom in the house opposite. That was all.

And I still have trouble believing that even the largest Maglite, could have made that huge break in her skull. For a Maglite to have been used to generate the force sufficient to create that break, it would need to have been swung at an extremely high speed IMO, one that I don't think any human is capable of getting their arm to travel at. I wish someone could work the physics out for me. And then to leave the Maglite on the kitchen bench, if indeed it was the murder weapon, just doesn't seem right somehow.

 

[aussiesheila]

"I wouldn't expect any RDI theorists to agree with this but I think the baseball bat should be given equal rating as the implement likely to have been used to inflict the head wound."

Well, it's not that we don't think about it, but if you'll remember, Werner Spitz did several tests and found that the flashlight fit the wound perfectly. So, I guess you could say it has priority.

Which end of the Maglite fitted perfectly? Did he test any other implements to see whether they fitted perfectly? Did he test any baseball bats for instance? Besides, he was presumably quite highly motivated to demonstrate a perfect fit with his chosen murder weapon as publicity to boost sales of his book.

 

[BBB167893]

"I wish someone could work the physics out for me."

I think Spitz did.

"Which end of the Maglite fitted perfectly?"

The light end, I think.

"Did he test any other implements to see whether they fitted perfectly? Did he test any baseball bats for instance?"

He might have.

"Besides, he was presumably quite highly motivated to demonstrate a perfect fit with his chosen murder weapon as publicity to boost sales of his book."

Didn't know he had one!

 

[Nuisanceposter]

In one of her interviews Patsy was shown a photo of the side of the house showing the baseball bat on the ground. She said it was most unusual for a bat to be there and that the children would not have left it there.

Did anybody other than Patsy ever say the same thing?

I place as great a value on what Patsy Ramsey says as you do on what Steve Thomas says, aussieshelia. She's proven herself to be unreliable.