John Ramsey on Oprah

[angelwngs]

That is possible, but if she wore those size 12's to the party, then there goes the bedwetting theory, which is what I have believed in all of these years. Does anyone know if those size 12 bloomies had urine on them, like the longjohns did? If so, then maybe the urine, which was thought to have been released post mortem, actually was released when she wet the bed. Here's a thought....I do believe that JB was wearing that Red turtleneck when she went to bed that night, as Patsy has previously stated, before changing her story. What if she really did wear the size 12 bloomies and the longjohns under her velvet pants, to the party...and Patsy just changed her shirt and left the longjohns (and size 12 Bloomies) on her, and this is what she was wearing when she went to bed...and wet the bed. And this is the urine that was found. I have always thought that somehow JB fell into the side of the tub, or toilet...as Patsy was angrily trying to remove that turtleneck, possibly slinging JB around with the shirt, as she tried to pull if off, with JB's head still stuck in the collar of it. JB's head came out...and forcibly hit the tub, toilet or sink. But, there would have had to have been urine on the size 12 panties, for her wearing them to the WHite's and later to bed to make any sense.

OMG, Ames... PR was organizing the trip to Mich. and could have suggested putting on or wearing the red turtleneck again so they would "match" for the Mich. trip. It had already caused one altercation earlier that day, so had the My Twinn Doll... What if wearing the red turtleneck caused yet another controversy before bedtime???

 

[JMO8778]

good thought,angelwngs,I think Patsy sounded like someone who got her feelings hurt easily,esp. by her own daughter,whom she saw almost as a twin of herself.so she took it personally when JB didn't like the doll,rebelled over the pageants,and didn't want to wear the red shirt to match her,instead of just seeing it for what it was..normal 6 yo behavior.I think Patsy was emotionally immature like that,and maybe it was just all too much for her.

 

[Ames]

OMG, Ames... PR was organizing the trip to Mich. and could have suggested putting on or wearing the red turtleneck again so they would "match" for the Mich. trip. It had already caused one altercation earlier that day, so had the My Twinn Doll... What if wearing the red turtleneck caused yet another controversy before bedtime???

I wonder if Patsy forced her to wear it to bed to save time the next morning, and when she wet the bed the shirt got soaked too. And this made Patsy fly into her rage. The red turtleneck was found balled up on the bathroom counter. Patsy intially stated that JB was wearing the red turtleneck when she went to bed. This is ONE reason that I do not believe that JB was asleep when she came in, and that she was "zonked" like Patsy says, when she redressed her. Why would ANYBODY try to put a turtleneck on a SLEEPING child...OR LONGJOHNS for that matter. They are both skin tight. I believe that JB was awake, Patsy probably made her wear the red turtleneck, and helped her put it on...and she was probably already wearing the longjohns (imo, she had those on under her pants at the party).

 

[Ames]

good thought,angelwngs,I think Patsy sounded like someone who got her feelings hurt easily,esp. by her own daughter,whom she saw almost as a twin of herself.so she took it personally when JB didn't like the doll,rebelled over the pageants,and didn't want to wear the red shirt to match her,instead of just seeing it for what it was..normal 6 yo behavior.I think Patsy was emotionally immature like that,and maybe it was just all too much for her.

Yep, remember that Christmas morning pict. of Patsy grasping JB's arm? Her eyes were all swollen and her face was red (Patsy's), probably from crying and having a hissy fit because JB didn't like her MY TWINN doll.

 

[angelwngs]

good thought,angelwngs,I think Patsy sounded like someone who got her feelings hurt easily,esp. by her own daughter,whom she saw almost as a twin of herself.so she took it personally when JB didn't like the doll,rebelled over the pageants,and didn't want to wear the red shirt to match her,instead of just seeing it for what it was..normal 6 yo behavior.I think Patsy was emotionally immature like that,and maybe it was just all too much for her.

Exactly...

Have any of you read anything about JB previously kicking PR in anger? I read something today about it, but I can't find it now and I am not sure if it was fact or suggestion...

(Edited to add: I found it. It was a post by none other than one of our own WS posters posting under the same hat on another messageboard... She said it was common talk around Boulder about JB kicking PR in public at a previous pagent ....Interesting huh???)

 

[BBB167893]

it is,UK has a real knack for that.
I would venture to say Patsy was probably busy otherwise while John finished up w the staging,writing the ransom note would be my guess.

Right under our noses!

 

[angelwngs]

I wonder if Patsy forced her to wear it to bed to save time the next morning, and when she wet the bed the shirt got soaked too. And this made Patsy fly into her rage. The red turtleneck was found balled up on the bathroom counter. Patsy intially stated that JB was wearing the red turtleneck when she went to bed. This is ONE reason that I do not believe that JB was asleep when she came in, and that she was "zonked" like Patsy says, when she redressed her. Why would ANYBODY try to put a turtleneck on a SLEEPING child...OR LONGJOHNS for that matter. They are both skin tight. I believe that JB was awake, Patsy probably made her wear the red turtleneck, and helped her put it on...and she was probably already wearing the longjohns (imo, she had those on under her pants at the party).

I think you've probably hit the proverbial nail on the head...Your scenero makes perfect sense...

 

[angelwngs]

Had your 6 year old daughter been garrotted to death, could you have EVER used this teminology???

John Ramsey on Oprah:
Well, it was a rush to judgment. A cyberspace lynching, I guess. That would be a way to look at it. I got a lot of letters eventually from people who said, “Please forgive me, I thought you were guilty.” And I would write back, “How could you have thought anything else, based upon what you were told. So certainly I forgive you.”

Cold? Callous? Idifferent? :waitasec: Guilty...

 

[Ames]

I think you've probably hit the proverbial nail on the head...Your scenero makes perfect sense...

I just have a very hard time believing that John was molesting JB that night, and Patsy caught them, and either hit JB by accident while aiming at John, or on purpose. I mean, why in the world would he do that...with Patsy and Burke up, and an early trip the next morning? And I do believe that JB was probably previously molested by someone...probably her grandfather (Grand Paugh), but not John. I will go to my grave believing that a bed wetting incident led to this...not intentionally though.

 

[Ames]

Had your 6 year old daughter been garrotted to death, could you have EVER used this teminology???

John Ramsey on Oprah:
Well, it was a rush to judgment. A cyberspace lynching, I guess. That would be a way to look at it. I got a lot of letters eventually from people who said, “Please forgive me, I thought you were guilty.” And I would write back, “How could you have thought anything else, based upon what you were told. So certainly I forgive you.”

Cold? Callous? Idifferent? :waitasec: Guilty...

No, and if pineapple had of been found in my daughter's stomach...and I believed that an intruder had fed it to her (as Patsy suggested), then I wouldn't put up wallpaper in my kitchen with PINEAPPLE all over it, after I moved to Atlanta, either. But THEY did. :waitasec:

 

[angelwngs]

That is possible, but if she wore those size 12's to the party, then there goes the bedwetting theory, which is what I have believed in all of these years. Does anyone know if those size 12 bloomies had urine on them, like the longjohns did? If so, then maybe the urine, which was thought to have been released post mortem, actually was released when she wet the bed. Here's a thought....I do believe that JB was wearing that Red turtleneck when she went to bed that night, as Patsy has previously stated, before changing her story. What if she really did wear the size 12 bloomies and the longjohns under her velvet pants, to the party...and Patsy just changed her shirt and left the longjohns (and size 12 Bloomies) on her, and this is what she was wearing when she went to bed...and wet the bed. And this is the urine that was found. I have always thought that somehow JB fell into the side of the tub, or toilet...as Patsy was angrily trying to remove that turtleneck, possibly slinging JB around with the shirt, as she tried to pull if off, with JB's head still stuck in the collar of it. JB's head came out...and forcibly hit the tub, toilet or sink. But, there would have had to have been urine on the size 12 panties, for her wearing them to the WHite's and later to bed to make any sense.

I just ran across this to answer your question above as I was searching for something else...

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/autopsy.html
JONBENET RAMSEY AUTOPSY REPORT

EXTERNAL EXAM:

The decedent is clothed in a long sleeved whit knit collarless shirt, the mid anterior chest area of which contains an embroidered silver star decorate with silver sequins. Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord is also frayed. There are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper anterior right sleeve contains a dried brown-tan stain measuring 2.5x1.5 inches, consistent with mucous from the nose or mouth. There are long white underwear with an elastic waist band containing a red and blue stripe. The long underwear are urine stained anteriorly over the crotch area and anterior legs. No defects are identified. Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band. The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension.

 

[DeeDee249]

When PR is discussing the possible purchase of 2 sets of Bloomies panties with LE, she doesn't mean that she bought two sets of size 12s. One set was size 12, admittedly bought for her niece Jenny, and one set was for JBR in her proper size (6). I don't recall seeing whether any size 6 Bloomies panties were ever found in the house either, so we don't know of PR bought them or not. That New York trip to Bloomies was NOT in the distant past- it was only a few weeks before JBR's death. Guaranteed, PR remembers exactly how many sets she bought, and whether she also bought one for JBR in her own size. Her vagueness under questioning is because she doesn't really know exactly what LE has found or whether they know she bought them or not. She isn't sure if they know, she she says she doesn't recall; she MAY have bought two sets, so that whatever the answer is, she's covered.

 

[angelwngs]

If the poster who said that it was widely reported in Boulder that JB publically kicked PR at a pagent was indeed correct, (and this poster who posted this on a post I found on another board is someone who we all respect here at WS), here is another thought on the urine stained undies and long johns, as well as the red turtleneck. Could there have been a late evening argument over the red turtleneck and PR's plans for JB to wear it to Mich as to match her outfit? And during this argument, JB fought back by intentionally wetting herself...

That would certainly have been a way to really make PR furious. Possibly furious enough to strike out at JB??..???...

(As SD says... Just spitballing here..)

 

[BBB167893]

Well, JonBenet had been trying her mom's patience lately: she would purposely hold it in until she was about to burst. Sometimes she wouldn't quite make it.

Speaking of spitballing: to whomever asked why John would do it that night, (not that I think he did, mind you), isn't it possible he'd had too much to drink that night and it destroyed his self-control?

 

[angelwngs]

When PR is discussing the possible purchase of 2 sets of Bloomies panties with LE, she doesn't mean that she bought two sets of size 12s. One set was size 12, admittedly bought for her niece Jenny, and one set was for JBR in her proper size (6). I don't recall seeing whether any size 6 Bloomies panties were ever found in the house either, so we don't know of PR bought them or not. That New York trip to Bloomies was NOT in the distant past- it was only a few weeks before JBR's death. Guaranteed, PR remembers exactly how many sets she bought, and whether she also bought one for JBR in her own size. Her vagueness under questioning is because she doesn't really know exactly what LE has found or whether they know she bought them or not. She isn't sure if they know, she she says she doesn't recall; she MAY have bought two sets, so that whatever the answer is, she's covered.

I thought the size 6 set was found-or at least some of them... in the house. Undies were listed as having been taken into evidence...

OMG...
If an intruder did do it and redressed JB from the size 6 Wednesday undies to the size 12 Wednesday undies, the size 6 undies, which might have contained DNA proof of his/her presence, would have most certainly been taken with the intruder and out of the house.

Also, if it was not an intruder and JB was indeed redressed due to the crime, the original size 6's would have needed to have been disposed of properly...for the same reasons above. (Like maybe stashed in a golf bag or burned in the furnace or fire place.

Reguardless, the size 6, Wednesday undies should not have been located in the house if she had them on that night. Right? Were the size 6, Wednesday undies found by LE?

And what the heck was wrong with JB that caused her to be confined to her room all Christmas Day??? (I don't buy the sniffles...a slight cold...either...)

Did this whole mess start with the My Twinn Doll and was she being punished on Christmas Day? Other chidren were allowed to visit her in her room but she could not go outside. (What about playing in other parts of the house??? Was she in her own room all day long on Christmas Day???)

 

[angelwngs]

Well, JonBenet had been trying her mom's patience lately: she would purposely hold it in until she was about to burst. Sometimes she wouldn't quite make it.

Speaking of spitballing: to whomever asked why John would do it that night, (not that I think he did, mind you), isn't it possible he'd had too much to drink that night and it destroyed his self-control?

Humm... He did drink at the dinner at the Whites, correct? And was it true that he drank rather heavily the 25th after the deadline had come and gone? Or was that after he got to the Fernies???

(My brain is scrambling...Sorry...)

 

[Ames]

Well, JonBenet had been trying her mom's patience lately: she would purposely hold it in until she was about to burst. Sometimes she wouldn't quite make it.

Speaking of spitballing: to whomever asked why John would do it that night, (not that I think he did, mind you), isn't it possible he'd had too much to drink that night and it destroyed his self-control?

That was me that asked that, SD. Drunk or not, he would have had to be pretty stupid to do such a thing with his wife and son up. He said that he only had a couple of glasses of wine, and I am sure that the other party goers were questioned about that. Was John or Patsy drunk when they left the party? I believe that Patsy was a little tipsy too, and probably on some sort of medications, and that is what caused her to fly into a rage so easily over the bedwetting. Patsy was up half the night packing...or so she says. I just don't believe that John was molesting JB. I am still sticking to the bedwetting scenario.

 

[BBB167893]

Humm... He did drink at the dinner at the Whites, correct? And was it true that he drank rather heavily the 25th after the deadline had come and gone? Or was that after he got to the Fernies???

(My brain is scrambling...Sorry...)

The party, yes. Both of them did.

Don't know about the rest.

 

[DeeDee249]

Underwear WAS taken from the house into evidence. ALL of JBR's panties were removed from her drawers, even from the laundry. None were mentioned as being Bloomies Day-of the Week panties like the ones she was found in, size 6 or otherwise. It may be that LE did remove size 6 Bloomies, but they have never stated this as fact. If she was wearing a size 6 Bloomies Wednesday pair that became stained with her blood, or other incriminating matter, that would be a reason for changing her into a clean pair of Bloomies Wednesday panties, of which the only other pair available like that was the size 12 that was supposed to be Jenny's gift.
If there were 6 pairs of Bloomies size 6s and the Wednesday pair was missing, that would be a huge red flag about whether her size 12s were staging and would put the end to PR's claim that she gave the size 12 set to JBR and she dressed herself in them. Even if that were the case. JBR was known to not be able to read- even the name tags on the Christmas presents that morning. So she'd never pick out the Wednesday pair (Christmas was a Wednesday that year) and random choosing of the Wednesday pair is just too much of a coincidence.
No, that Wednesday pair on her is staging. PR would never allow her to wear such an ill-fitting pair. It defeats the whole purpose of underwear in the first place - to keep the clothes clean.

 

[angelwngs]

Underwear WAS taken from the house into evidence. ALL of JBR's panties were removed from her drawers, even from the laundry. None were mentioned as being Bloomies Day-of the Week panties like the ones she was found in, size 6 or otherwise. It may be that LE did remove size 6 Bloomies, but they have never stated this as fact. If she was wearing a size 6 Bloomies Wednesday pair that became stained with her blood, or other incriminating matter, that would be a reason for changing her into a clean pair of Bloomies Wednesday panties, of which the only other pair available like that was the size 12 that was supposed to be Jenny's gift.
If there were 6 pairs of Bloomies size 6s and the Wednesday pair was missing, that would be a huge red flag about whether her size 12s were staging and would put the end to PR's claim that she gave the size 12 set to JBR and she dressed herself in them. Even if that were the case. JBR was known to not be able to read- even the name tags on the Christmas presents that morning. So she'd never pick out the Wednesday pair (Christmas was a Wednesday that year) and random choosing of the Wednesday pair is just too much of a coincidence.
No, that Wednesday pair on her is staging. PR would never allow her to wear such an ill-fitting pair. It defeats the whole purpose of underwear in the first place - to keep the clothes clean.

Maybe she couldn't read, but Kindergarten age children can 'match'. If she took off the size 6 Wednesday undies, she could easily match them with the size 12 Wednesday undies.

But if all her undies were taken, even the ones in the laundry, then the size 12's had to be staging if no other size 12's from the set were removed from he house by LE.

That was a HUGE screw up by the killer....