Judge Rules Family Can't Refuse Chemo for Child With Cancer

  • #181
For me the distinctin is pretty easy:

If it is a surgical life or death situation and without unforeseem complications the surgery has a 100% success rate then yes.

If the child is diabetic and they have a 100% chance of survival with insulin, then yes.

The problem with cancer treatements is that they are not a sure thing. Some people who refuse chemo get better "miraculously". Some who have a good chance at survival with chemo can die from the effects of chemo. CRAP SHOOT. At that point the parents and child can decide.

Anyone has the right to commit suicide (and I'm a conservative but I disagree with most on this); especially in cases of terminal illness. My spiritual beliefs would keep me from making that choice most likely, but others should be able to. Some people really need to move on I guess. Some people, even with medication, just can't seem to function. And perhaps that is the law of nature taking it's course. The weak in the heard do not have a natural enemy preditor except themselves.
 
  • #182
For me the distinctin is pretty easy:

If it is a surgical life or death situation and without unforeseem complications the surgery has a 100% success rate then yes.

If the child is diabetic and they have a 100% chance of survival with insulin, then yes.

The problem with cancer treatements is that they are not a sure thing. Some people who refuse chemo get better "miraculously". Some who have a good chance at survival with chemo can die from the effects of chemo. CRAP SHOOT. At that point the parents and child can decide.

Anyone has the right to commit suicide (and I'm a conservative but I disagree with most on this); especially in cases of terminal illness. My spiritual beliefs would keep me from making that choice most likely, but others should be able to. Some people really need to move on I guess. Some people, even with medication, just can't seem to function. And perhaps that is the law of nature taking it's course. The weak in the heard do not have a natural enemy preditor except themselves.

What about the tiny percentage of people whose surgery will go wrong? It's not 100% success rate - it's good but not that good. Nothing in this life will be that good and medicine cannot offer that either, even with procedures or other treatments that have a good success rate.

I really, really think that the number of patients with cancer who have gotten better "miraculously" without conventional treatment is much lower than is being stated on here. It's very anecdotal.

Sure, chemo isn't 100%. But IMO people are thinking about chemo for cancers that are caught late or have a bad prognosis for whatever reason. That's not what this boy has.

Also, medicine can simply not give you a 100% guarantee about anything. You are not going to find a doctor who will say if you have this treatment, this surgery, this chemo, this medication, I 100% guarantee you that you will be cured and not harmed. That's never going to happen. But people seem to want that guarantee and if it isn't given, then chemo is bad.
 
  • #183
What about the tiny percentage of people whose surgery will go wrong? It's not 100% success rate - it's good but not that good. Nothing in this life will be that good and medicine cannot offer that either, even with procedures or other treatments that have a good success rate.

I really, really think that the number of patients with cancer who have gotten better "miraculously" without conventional treatment is much lower than is being stated on here. It's very anecdotal.

Sure, chemo isn't 100%. But IMO people are thinking about chemo for cancers that are caught late or have a bad prognosis for whatever reason. That's not what this boy has.

Also, medicine can simply not give you a 100% guarantee about anything. You are not going to find a doctor who will say if you have this treatment, this surgery, this chemo, this medication, I 100% guarantee you that you will be cured and not harmed. That's never going to happen. But people seem to want that guarantee and if it isn't given, then chemo is bad.

I've worked in the medical industry and I realize there is no such thing as a guarantee. With the surgery, I said if there are no complications etc.

Since chemo is not a cure for cancer, I view it as legal experimentation, that's all.
 
  • #184
I don't know if there's a surgery that has a perfect 100% success rate even without complications. ???
 
  • #185
sorry, I'm not being clear...that barring complications it would be thought of as lifesaving, like removing a busting gall bladder or a tracheotomy(sp?).
 
  • #186
From the link above, the scans showed that his tumor has already grown. I was diagnoised last yr with breast cancer. I underwent the toughest chemo treatment out there for any type of cancer. Yes, the side effects are rough but they are so do able. Chemo isn't like it was 10 yrs ago or even 5 yrs ago. Most ppl don't even experience vomiting. If they believe in alternative medicine, I think that's a great supplement to conventional treatment. This child has a chance to live, why would they take that from him?!

Well, the judge said that the boy did NOT have to submit to chemo if the chances of survival were not in his favor. Has the growth changed the 95% of successful treatment? I know many people see alternative approaches as supplements, but many people do not. Chemo kills the good along with the bad, and some alternative approaches "claim" to enhance the good and target only the bad.

In reference to your statement which I bolded above: my bil is fighting for his life right now. He has multiple myloma and I'm sure I misspelled that! but he is in the most important fight of his life right now. He is currently in hospital, where stem cells are being harvested. If they can get enough stem cells, and oh, Jesus, PLEASE let there be more than enough! then he will have one more massive chemo treatment, after which his stem cells will be replaced. He is going through all of this hoping to gain five years of life.

He is a wonderful young man. He and my sister are practically newly-weds, and they deserve decade upon decade together. We all support his decision to fight this terrible cancer, and we all are praying that the treatment will be successful.

It hasn't been easy on him, though. He does suffer from the chemo. He has no chance without treatment, sans miracle, and his choice is to avail himself with everything doctors have to offer. I would NEVER tell him not to fight. Even if the chance of success were half a percent, I wouldn't say a word if he decided to try it anyway. HE chose.

My only gripe with the current case is that the boy is of an age which our courts have deemed as old enough to be tried of crimes AS THOUGH an adult had committed the crime. I just can't comprehend that our courts can have such opposing views. ONE or the OTHER needs to change!

Thanks, Trino.

From the article:

".......they might be with a man named Billy Joe Best, who appeared at a news conference held by the family in early May to say he supported the Hausers. Best, who said he was from Boston, told The Journal of New Ulm then that he had also been diagnosed with Hodgkins lymphoma as a teenager and was cured by natural remedies.

Doctors have said that with treatment Daniel has an 80 to 90 percent chance of survival; without it he likely will die within five years."

80-90% chance...when does the percentage allow the family to make their own choices?

OK, his chances have gone down. At what percentage should the family be allowed to make their own choices? That's a HARD ONE, girl! I'd have to say that the age of the child factors into that decision. If this boy WANTED chemo and mommy said no, ABSOLUTELY the courts should step in and ensure his right to treatment. I wish I knew the answer to your question, I really do.

Since when did this become a "religious" thread.

People you are missing the point. Very much so. God does not trump the law, neither does faith. The law often trumps parents as the law is in place to protect members of the public and punish those who break the law.

Hiya, cyber! :bow: I hate to argue, I'm sorry in advance, ok? :blowkiss: To people of faith God and Faith DO TRUMP the law. Jesus taught to obey and submit to the authorities as long as it broke no spiritual law......if a country decided that everyone would eat shrimp three times a week, for instance, "some" Christians would refuse to obey because the Old Testament forbid shrimp as a food for God's chosen ones.

So while government and the law may believe they trump a person's religious beliefs, the person of faith would not believe so.

(respectfully snipped for length)

Would it be okay for the Judge to call this Mom negligent and force this boy to undergo chemotherapy he doesn't want if there was a 40% chance that the chemo would cure him?

Hell, no.


This link says they were confirmed in Cally and are possibly heading to Mexico for treatment: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520690,00.html.

This really reinforces my conundrum here! If they are TRULY seeking alternative treatment, then NO COURT should have the right to step in. Right?

What 13 yr old cannot read anything?

Pray the boy will be found in time.

There are some very interesting studies out there about reading and boys. Many boys have brains that aren't "ready" to learn to read until they are much older than what we accept as normal. (My own boys learned to read at ages three and four: we homeschooled and they WANTED to read so I taught them how!)

I think the man's last name was Moore, I'll search him out if you want to pursue this, but his studies showed that it is not uncommon for boys to resist reading. If forced to read, they will develop learning disabilities. If left on their own, they will refuse to read, even be unable to learn, for YEARS but if left on their own (with parents reading to them, of course) the boy will one day become interested and ASK someone to teach them to read.

I don't know if these parents follow this homeschooling approach or not. I hate the fact that they've joined a "religion" that was founded by a criminal. I question their judgement! But somehow, the fact that this child can't read doesn't bother me. He'll learn one day.
 
  • #187
......his studies showed that it is not uncommon for boys to resist reading. If forced to read, they will develop learning disabilities. If left on their own, they will refuse to read, even be unable to learn, for YEARS but if left on their own (with parents reading to them, of course) the boy will one day become interested and ASK someone to teach them to read....

This is exactly what happened with both of the sons of my friends who follow the "unschooling" method of homeschooling.

The not reading thing doesn't bother me either, but it seems to have factored into the opinions some have about this case.

Daniel and his Mother are indeed seeking treatment - they are just not bowing to the big hand of the state - I respect them both more than I can say and hope they find the results they seek.

Kgeaux, I will keep your bil in my thoughts and prayers.
 
  • #188
For me the distinctin is pretty easy:

If it is a surgical life or death situation and without unforeseem complications the surgery has a 100% success rate then yes.

If the child is diabetic and they have a 100% chance of survival with insulin, then yes.

The problem with cancer treatments is that they are not a sure thing. Some people who refuse chemo get better "miraculously". Some who have a good chance at survival with chemo can die from the effects of chemo. CRAP SHOOT. At that point the parents and child can decide.

That is a little generalized. Nothing is 100%, not even the insulin for the diabetic. About 15% of people with Type 1 Diabetes die before they are 40. It is nothing to take lightly, even with modern medical advances.
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/diabetes/page11_em.htm#Outlook


There are absolutely cancer protocols that have success rates in the 90% range, and types of cancer that don't even require chemo or radiation. Testicular cancer has a cure rate approaching 100% when it is caught early. Kidney cancer, which my FIL was diagnosed with last year, has a cure rate of over 95% if the cancer has not spread (which his has not). Chemo/radiation is not effective. Do you know what almost DID kill him? A kidney stone in the other kidney and an infection.

And Hodgkins, which Daniel has, is considered highly treatable, even after it has started to spread - which his has not yet, according to his doctors.


Nothing is 100%, but when you are talking about numbers like 80-90%, someone needs to pay attention.
 
  • #189
In reference to your statement which I bolded above: my bil is fighting for his life right now. He has multiple myloma and I'm sure I misspelled that! but he is in the most important fight of his life right now. He is currently in hospital, where stem cells are being harvested. If they can get enough stem cells, and oh, Jesus, PLEASE let there be more than enough! then he will have one more massive chemo treatment, after which his stem cells will be replaced. He is going through all of this hoping to gain five years of life.

He is a wonderful young man. He and my sister are practically newly-weds, and they deserve decade upon decade together. We all support his decision to fight this terrible cancer, and we all are praying that the treatment will be successful.

It hasn't been easy on him, though. He does suffer from the chemo. He has no chance without treatment, sans miracle, and his choice is to avail himself with everything doctors have to offer. I would NEVER tell him not to fight. Even if the chance of success were half a percent, I wouldn't say a word if he decided to try it anyway. HE chose.

(((Kgeaux))) just wanted to add a quick prayer for your BIL and word of reassurance. Our friend (my oldest son's best friend's dad) went through this same process last year after a recurrence of non-Hodgkins lymphoma. Since he was seeking treatment in Houston, he was away from his family and it was very tough on everyone, most of all him. It was a scary time, waiting for every test result, deciding to do "just one more round" of chemo before the big one, etc. A year later it is mostly a blur, and hard to believe it has passed so quickly. He is doing well, cancer gone as far as they can tell.

Tuesday we will watch our boys graduate from 8th grade together. I doubt you could offer him a free pass on all the vomiting, fever, or LPs to miss that day.

Tell your BIL to hang tough and know that there are strangers praying for him all over the world. It's amazing how much of a difference that makes.
 
  • #190
For me the distinctin is pretty easy:

If it is a surgical life or death situation and without unforeseem complications the surgery has a 100% success rate then yes.

If the child is diabetic and they have a 100% chance of survival with insulin, then yes.

The problem with cancer treatements is that they are not a sure thing. Some people who refuse chemo get better "miraculously". Some who have a good chance at survival with chemo can die from the effects of chemo. CRAP SHOOT. At that point the parents and child can decide.

Anyone has the right to commit suicide (and I'm a conservative but I disagree with most on this); especially in cases of terminal illness. My spiritual beliefs would keep me from making that choice most likely, but others should be able to. Some people really need to move on I guess. Some people, even with medication, just can't seem to function. And perhaps that is the law of nature taking it's course. The weak in the heard do not have a natural enemy preditor except themselves.


You do not get a 100% just because you take insulin. I am type 1 diabetic and I take my meds but yet I am having liver issues now.
 
  • #191
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/ap_on_re_us/us_forced_chemo

"There have been at least five instances in the U.S. in recent years in which parents fled with a sick child to avoid medical treatments.
They include the celebrated case of Parker Jensen, who was 12 when his family fled from Utah to Idaho in 2003 to avoid court-ordered chemo after doctors removed a small cancerous tumor under his tongue. Daren and Barbara Jensen pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor in a deal that brought no jail time or fines, and went on to lobby for legislation to strengthen the rights of parents. Parker survived without chemotherapy."
 
  • #192
About this boy not reading or being in therapy to learn, he will be grown in about 5 years, if he lives that long. How is he going to ever get a driver's license, read medication bottles, a magazine, make a grocery list, read his own child's medicine bottles (if he lives that long), fully enjoy the internet, or do all that everyone takes for granted. This family doesn't seem to think very longterm. What if there is no insurance coverage or school intervention IEP's when he finally decides to get serious about dyslexia treatment. Not that I should criticize because I'm going thru heck with a young teen right now and with his trying to make his own decisions, but at least it's not life or death ones.
 
  • #193
You do not get a 100% just because you take insulin. I am type 1 diabetic and I take my meds but yet I am having liver issues now.

That's a good point. I have a diabetic stepson type 1. He's 16 now and diagnosed since 7.

I meant that as a child there is imminent death without insulin. Not that you would never have related health issues.

As an adult, the disease takes it's toll. My SS is going to have to face very difficult health issues I'm afraid.
 
  • #194
Tuesday we will watch our boys graduate from 8th grade together. I doubt you could offer him a free pass on all the vomiting, fever, or LPs to miss that day.

Tell your BIL to hang tough and know that there are strangers praying for him all over the world. It's amazing how much of a difference that makes.

Thank you so much! I will share your friend's success story with my sister and bil.....it is so wonderful to hear!

Daniel and his Mother are indeed seeking treatment - they are just not bowing to the big hand of the state - I respect them both more than I can say and hope they find the results they seek.

Kgeaux, I will keep your bil in my thoughts and prayers.

First, thank you for the prayers. We can use them and are so grateful!

Secondly, I hope Daniel and his mom see good results, too. It is scary to think that the government can go beyond dictating that a person receive treatment, but can chose WHICH treatment. That is mind boggling.
 
  • #195
http://www.startribune.com/local/45554457.html?page=1&c=y

Nice little story going into more depth about the Hausners. Daniel had a tough birth and had to be revived twice, which may help explain some of his learning disabilities. It also touches on some of the family's distrust of Western medicine.

Daniel's Father said the Hausners wanted to propose a slower course of chemo to be done while they were pursuing other healing courses, but no one seemed willing to support this compromise. He thinks when his Wife found out at Monday's visit that the cancer seemed to be worse than it had been, she "freaked" and fled to get him as quickly as possible to places that could help him without the chemo.

Still no word from or sight of Daniel and his Mom.
 
  • #196
Two scenarios -
1) An 11-year-old boy has ACUTE appendicitis on the verge of rupturing. If is not taken to surgery immediately, it will rupture and he will die from peritonitis. The parents do not want to sign the consent for religious reasons of for whatever reason - Should anyone intervene or is it NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS?

2) An 87-year-old man who has Alzehimers needs to undergo a life saving procedure and is unable to sign of his own consent form - he has a major heart block and requires emergency stenting. Just to happens that they little old guy has quite a bit of money stockpiled - the family does not want to sign? Should anyone step in to help this poor old guy old or IS IT NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS?

To me both situations above are akin to murder and I see no difference in them than the one that is being discussed about in this thread about the little boy needing chemo. His mother has no right to chose whether he lives or dies.

Hey poco

The problem with your scenario #1 is that my experiences of families who do not use traditional Western medicine for their physical health needs is that if their 11-year-old had acute appendicitis, they wouldn't know that and may never get close enough to a doctor to know that. Most of us if we had an 11-year-old doubled over in pain and/or with a fever wouldn't hesitate to take the child to a doctor. People who rely on "faith healing" for lack of a better term, tend to rely on it for all things.

There is a woman on trial in MN right now because her daughter went into a diabetic coma and died. That's a pretty straightforward situation to deal with in Western medicine, but this woman didn't know that and she did what she believed was helping her daughter - she even thought her daughter was getting better. It was a super-sad case - I posted the link to the discussion we had about it earlier on this thread. IIRC, the woman said that had she known what she was doing wasn't working and had known docs could fix her right up, she would have taken her. But when you've used prayer and alternative healing for your family all their lives and it's worked, ythat's what you automatically turn to.

With scenario #2 - aren't acute lifesaving operations just done without anyone's consent? I don't know much about medicine, but I guess I've always assumed that if someone in acute need of surgery (car accident victim for example) arrives at a hospital and needs surgery to be saved, he's whisked into surgery. Perhaps I am wrong.
 
  • #197
That's a good point. I have a diabetic stepson type 1. He's 16 now and diagnosed since 7.

I meant that as a child there is imminent death without insulin. Not that you would never have related health issues.

As an adult, the disease takes it's toll. My SS is going to have to face very difficult health issues I'm afraid.


I'll keep him in my prayers. I know its so scary at times. I WISH they would come up with a cure.
 
  • #198
I am not up to date on the bible, but I do know that if you try to "explain" the action of saying "stoning" a women to death that has committed adultery in the USA, you can bet your bottom dollar "that the law" of man is in the books in every state. Those books will trump your assertion that "the law of God and the bible" trumps the law of man.

You will be tried for murder one, even though the bible says that a women should be stoned for the sin of adultery. So go ahead, try to use a religious defense, betcha it won't work. Also a child is a child. Until he is 18 he cannot make legal decision on his own concerning his death. He can't see 5 years, 10 years, 30 years into the future. The teenage brain is just not weired that way, yet.

As to trying kids as criminal. It depends on the crime. If the crime of the criminal is bad enough, then everyone wants them held to a degree of more responsibility and accountability for the crime.

But children are treated differently in most developed countries when it comes to crimes and no court in their wisdom is going to let an illerate 13 year old make life and death decision for himself.

Especially when this child does not seemt o have "much life" experience.

So again, ethics prevail. Is it better to allow a child to die of a treatable illness or to get this the treatment to live. It is a no brainer in the law, ethics and life.
 
  • #199
I am not up to date on the bible, but I do know that if you try to "explain" the action of saying "stoning" a women to death that has committed adultery in the USA, you can bet your bottom dollar "that the law" of man is in the books in every state. Those books will trump your assertion that "the law of God and the bible" trumps the law of man.

You will be tried for murder one, even though the bible says that a women should be stoned for the sin of adultery. So go ahead, try to use a religious defense, betcha it won't work. Also a child is a child. Until he is 18 he cannot make legal decision on his own concerning his death. He can't see 5 years, 10 years, 30 years into the future. The teenage brain is just not weired that way, yet.

As to trying kids as criminal. It depends on the crime. If the crime of the criminal is bad enough, then everyone wants them held to a degree of more responsibility and accountability for the crime.

But children are treated differently in most developed countries when it comes to crimes and no court in their wisdom is going to let an illerate 13 year old make life and death decision for himself.

Especially when this child does not seemt o have "much life" experience.

So again, ethics prevail. Is it better to allow a child to die of a treatable illness or to get this the treatment to live. It is a no brainer in the law, ethics and life.

Not much of an update from the Twin Cities news sources. IMO I hope the mother has a lot to think over while she's in jail because I think this may happen.
 
  • #200
Yeah well when she is in prison or jail, she can plan her son's funeral.........

Since when are parents "medical Doctors" and can treat their children for serious life threatening diseases.

It would be very obvious to parents say if their daughter is diabetic. She was be profoundly thirsty, fatigued, lose weight, frequent urination.

Then as the disease progresses.....the child has seizures and convulses...and looks pale, confused, vomiting.

Do you really expect me to believe that a "good" parent thinks in their mind that there is nothing wrong and that God will heal the child.

Sure and I swear next Christmas I am going to stay up all night just waiting for Santa to come down the fireplace. After all I prayed for that to happen and is that not what Santa does? I have read it somewhere so it must be true. Hey if it is in the bible then it must be true.....:rolleyes:
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
138
Guests online
4,560
Total visitors
4,698

Forum statistics

Threads
633,357
Messages
18,640,588
Members
243,503
Latest member
Taemaryee
Back
Top