jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[maxfactor]

Yes, I bet all of us would like the death penalty back in cases like this. However, with mistakes being made aside, what would really change? It seems that in states that have the DP, the prisoner still spends decades on death row, often expending untold taxpayer dollars on appeals to boot. How is that different from a 25 year "life" sentence?

That's true enough, the process is a slow and very costly one. I think it's great that Charles Adler is taking this on, raising a stink. It's disgusting to me that you can get more time in Canada for selling pot than for molesting a child.It's really time for a change, whether it be the death penalty or automatic life sentence for child molestation. What I think would make a huge difference is if they weren't segregated and protected when they are incarcerated. I just appreciate very much that C Adler is at least trying to do something.

 

[antiquegirl]

Tori Stafford trial: McClintic’s claim she was killer contradicts previous statement



http://www.thestar.com/news/article...c-reviews-early-statement-made-to-police?bn=1


bbm

IMO, forensics will show that Rafferty & Tori's DNA is on the hammer and his shoes not McClintic's.

(BBM)

"Police never found that hammer, which they believe to be the weapon used"

http://www.am980.ca/Channels/Court/story.aspx/Story.aspx?ID=1665061

Adrian Morrow ‏ @AdrianMorrow

Crown says police never found the hammer or the rest of the clothes, but did find Terri-Lynn's discarded shoes.

Both of their shoes were allegedly tossed out the car window. We know that TLM's shoes have been found, but it hasn't been stated (yet) whether MTR's were. If they were, it is MOO that blood may be found on both pairs.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

Well put AG! I want to add to it:
SHE is the one who decided to implicate MR in the crime only AFTER he told her that he loved her, but was not IN LOVE with her.

Perhaps she was being, "mildly vindictive"?

Thanks, MD. Good point. Did LE also tell her during this interrogation that MTR was seeing other women, or was that just a rumour? We may hear about that during cross-examination.

JMO

 

[antiquegirl]

There was a break in testimony previously for a couple of days and now this break in testimony. Are there some holidays they are dealing with or is something else causing these breaks?

TIA

The breaks in testimony are to allow for voir dire - legal discussions among the lawyers and judge. The extra days are to give both sides time to prepare arguments and questions based on the previous days' testimony, and, I suspect, so that all involved can get a much-needed breather and some family time. (I'd bring up the subject of golf, but it's a little early in the season.)

JMO

Voir dire:

In the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada (and sometimes in the United States of America) it refers to a "trial within a trial". It is a hearing to determine the admissibility of evidence, or the competency of a witness or juror.[1] As the subject matter of the voir dire often relates to evidence, competence or other matters that may lead to bias on behalf of the jury, the jury is removed from the court for the voir dire.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire"]Voir dire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Talina]

The breaks in testimony are to allow for voir dire - legal discussions among the lawyers and judge. The extra days are to give both sides time to prepare arguments and questions based on the previous days' testimony, and, I suspect, so that all involved can get a much-needed breather and some family time. (I'd bring up the subject of golf, but it's a little early in the season.)

JMO

Voir dire:

Voir dire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I understand all that and I see it happen quite a bit in US trials that I follow. I just don't see it causing multiple day delays. It is usually one day or a late start time, late day at trial, etc but not several days off at a time like this.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[flipflop]

I agree with you on the townhouse issue and also think its unlikely that a discussion about kidnapping an adult female single mom would revolve around such a populated area. The only way this would be true in my opinion is if TLM was being, "mildly vindictive" towards someone in one of those homes.

TLM wants us to believe that she was in a drug induced mind altered state, but she can apparently recall all sorts of details such as where they went, who said what, who did what to whom etc. She lies and lies and lies!!
It has occurred to me that perhaps she suffers from some Dissociative Identity Disorder. Perhaps there is more than one mind controlling that woman's body. For those unfamiliar with what this is, or how it could apply to TLM, you can read more about it here:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-identity-disorder-multiple-personality-disorder

I agree with what you are saying in the bbm paragraph. However, once I saw the evidence pic of the map she drew of the area (where they left VS)
Her 2 drawings are evidence pic #37&38 which are done to perfection as to how the area looks. For someone who was supposedly in a drug induced mind altered state she remembered these finer details of this area and they are correct and match the said area (yes I have been there):

-paved road
-drew the laneway with the bend at the top
-laneway kind of hidden
-lane had slight decline then inclined
-gravel/dirt laneway
-rock pile and trees
-she labels which kind of tree was where (called them leafless trees and green trees which I think she meant coniferous and deciduous) as this is what matches the area.
-rough looking fence
-swampy area
-trees line the field
-can't see house from top of laneway
-creek approx 1 foot wide
-silo couple of fields over
-silo and red barn in another direction
-open fields beyond the rock pile
-house across road
-stone light coloured
-modern one floor bungalow
-house slightly raised from road
-on angle, angle driveway with incline
-trees behind house
-shallow peaked roof
-big front window
-possible ditch

Each item is labeled on the map in the correct location. From being out there myself, I cannot think of one other detail which could have been added...she left nothing out!
For a drug induced mind...these details are all correct. She drew this map on June 1.

Yes she has lied about who used the hammer, but from this, I do believe other things she has said. I believe this is why the jury is going to this site as it really is unbelievable how her map exactly matches this area.

pics are here 37 & 38
http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

 

[matou]

We will all get more insight who this BA woman is....

@AM980_Court is that guy/girl who sold the perks, going to take the stand to verify that did in deed happen. That would put mike in the car

the Crown indicated during its opening statement this individual would be taking the stand as a witness at some point.

Thanks ff, I wanted to know about AG's statement of what BA did as a regular profession. SHe was not able to say where she got that info, she already answered.

 

[margaret_diane]

I have heard people wondering whether MR maybe went back later and collected evidence that was scattered about the sides of the 401... To me, that is completely implausible! Can you really imagine him driving down the 401 going at least somewhere between 80-100kms per hour, trying to catch sight along the side of the road (from the driver's side no less) things they might have left behind all while trying to drive safely enough not to get himself killed?? I believe it was the clothes they threw out the window. Not sure whether these would have been in garbage bags or not?

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...cclintic-describes-how-they-covered-up-murder
“When I got into the car, I took my clothing off,” she said. They threw the clothing out the window as they cruised down Hwy. 401 on way back to Woodstock.

The same article notes other evidence was thrown into a dumpster - how would he have gone back to get that? Did he go dumpster diving? I'm not sure if the evidence would still have even been there because it would depend on when the dumpster was collected by the company that owns the bin. Maybe this is one reason why the police were searching landfills - perhaps they were looking for the things that TLM says were tossed in the dumpster?

 

[margaret_diane]

I agree with what you are saying in the bbm paragraph. However, once I saw the evidence pic of the map she drew of the area (where they left VS)
Her 2 drawings are evidence pic #37&38 which are done to perfection as to how the area looks. For someone who was supposedly in a drug induced mind altered state she remembered these finer details of this area and they are correct and match the said area (yes I have been there):

-paved road
-drew the laneway with the bend at the top
-laneway kind of hidden
-lane had slight decline then inclined
-gravel/dirt laneway
-rock pile and trees
-she labels which kind of tree was where (called them leafless trees and green trees which I think she meant coniferous and deciduous) as this is what matches the area.
-rough looking fence
-swampy area
-trees line the field
-can't see house from top of laneway
-creek approx 1 foot wide
-silo couple of fields over
-silo and red barn in another direction
-open fields beyond the rock pile
-house across road
-stone light coloured
-modern one floor bungalow
-house slightly raised from road
-on angle, angle driveway with incline
-trees behind house
-shallow peaked roof
-big front window
-possible ditch

Each item is labeled on the map in the correct location. From being out there myself, I cannot think of one other detail which could have been added...she left nothing out!
For a drug induced mind...these details are all correct. She drew this map on June 1.

Yes she has lied about who used the hammer, but from this, I do believe other things she has said. From this, I believe this is why the jury is going to this site as it really is unbelievable how her map exactly matches this area.

pics are here 37 & 38
http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

I actually haven't looked at the pictures you've mentioned, but since you've so kindly provided a link, I'll do so now. Thank you. :seeya:

 

[matou]

I have heard people wondering whether MR maybe went back later and collected evidence that was scattered about the sides of the 401... To me, that is completely implausible! Can you really imagine him driving down the 401 going at least somewhere between 80-100kms per hour, trying to catch sight along the side of the road (from the driver's side no less) things they might have left behind all while trying to drive safely enough not to get himself killed?? I believe it was the clothes they threw out the window. Not sure whether these would have been in garbage bags or not?

http://www.thestar.com/news/article...cclintic-describes-how-they-covered-up-murder
“When I got into the car, I took my clothing off,” she said. They threw the clothing out the window as they cruised down Hwy. 401 on way back to Woodstock.

The same article notes other evidence was thrown into a dumpster - how would he have gone back to get that? Did he go dumpster diving? I'm not sure if the evidence would still have even been there because it would depend on when the dumpster was collected by the company that owns the bin. Maybe this is one reason why the police were searching landfills - perhaps they were looking for the things that TLM says were tossed in the dumpster?

I sure can. He was free for 6 weeks. I'm sure he went back to some areas to get rid of stuff that could have been found, especially near the end before he was arrested. JMO

 

[nonfictionrocks]

That's true enough, the process is a slow and very costly one. I think it's great that Charles Adler is taking this on, raising a stink. It's disgusting to me that you can get more time in Canada for selling pot than for molesting a child.It's really time for a change, whether it be the death penalty or automatic life sentence for child molestation. What I think would make a huge difference is if they weren't segregated and protected when they are incarcerated. I just appreciate very much that C Adler is at least trying to do something.

BBM

I think that would be the biggest deterrent for a would-be child molester or murderer.

I wonder when TLM returns to prison after the trial if they will have to move her to a securer living quarter. Up until the trial started she lead everyone to believe MTR was a child murderer when in fact she is the child murderer. I wonder how her pals in prison are going take to this new development.

 

[antiquegirl]

Yes she has lied about who used the hammer, but from this, I do believe other things she has said. From this, I believe this is why the jury is going to this site as it really is unbelievable how her map exactly matches this area.

(Respectfully snipped and BBM)

TLM's credibility has definitely been called into question. I fail to see how any conversations that purportedly transpired between her and MR, or her and Tori, will be possible to prove or disprove. No denying that her memory of the location was a darned good one. As to the rest of her testimony, it's obvious from the posts here that each of us will believe what we want to believe and that sometimes even that will fluctuate. That's natural, but not important, nor will it change the outcome of the verdict. What is important is what the jury will believe. ITA that the drugs she took seemed to have little or no effect on her memory.

JMO

 

[matou]

I wonder what kinds of questions TLM was asked on her polygraph, the day she was arrested (May 19th 2009) and if she was being truthful? JMO

http://www.cbc.ca/news/pdf/agreed-statement-fact-mcclintic-stafford.pdf

 

[margaret_diane]

I did notice in the link provided above by FlipFlop that the Shaq shoes photo shows a plastic shopping bag - the shoes are either in / on top of the bag in one of the photos. I wonder if the shoes were found inside the plastic bag?

 

[Hello_Kitty]

The crown did say that the jury does not need to determine who did what!!!!! I guess that is because no one can figure that out and it does not matter as they are both guilty for being there when VS was raped and murdered!

I suppose that's why the crown stressed the fact that the DNA evidence would be very important.

 

[matou]

I did notice in the link provided above by FlipFlop that the Shaq shoes photo shows a plastic shopping bag - the shoes are either in / on top of the bag in one of the photos. I wonder if the shoes were found inside the plastic bag?

That bag is spotless. I doubt it. JMO

 

[nonfictionrocks]

I did notice in the link provided above by FlipFlop that the Shaq shoes photo shows a plastic shopping bag - the shoes are either in / on top of the bag in one of the photos. I wonder if the shoes were found inside the plastic bag?

The bag looked relatively clean. I know TLM said she threw her shoes out the window but perhaps she is mistaken and threw them out in this bag into a dumpster or garbage can.

Can someone please tell me how it is possible to know MTR's DNA is on a hammer that we have been told has not been found, especially since TLM said several times she was the one who purchased it and then used it herself? :coffeews:

 

[matou]

Exactly how did MR's blood become mixed with Tori's blood? JMO

 

[matou]

Was MR wearing boots or running shoes on the day of the abduction?

 

[matou]

I wonder if impressions of bone breakage of Tori's ribs can show the outline of a shoe or boot imprint and shoe size can be determined from this?