Karr delivered deceased twins

[SewingDeb]

OOPS!

Your right! Sorry

I wonder why they were born at home and if she had any OB care during the pregnancy??

All of their children were born at home (the twins and the 3 sons). I wonder about the OB care myself. She was a young teenager and carrying twins would have been a high risk situation. An OB/GYN would not have recommended a home birth.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>All of their children were born at home (the twins and the 3 sons). I wonder about the OB care myself. She was a young teenager and carrying twins would have been a high risk situation. An OB/GYN would not have recommended a home birth<


At first I thought perhaps it was an emergency birth. Twins often come early. However now it seems ALL of their children were born at home. I strongly suspect that he did not allow his wives to have pre-natal care. Just a hunch and I have no proof of that.

What leads me to think that however is that if this was an unplanned home birth and she had twins who died I would think they would be highly unlikely to want to deliver at home in the future. And I agree with you that if she knew before hand that she was having twins esp. a first time mom no midwife would agree to take that on. This is why I highly doubt she had any pre-natal care. They would have known she was having twins and she would have been having regular ultrasounds and checkups.

I think from what the wives said and some of the teachers about him being controlling, strict etc. I gather he was a man that very much wanted to control everything about his wife and children. Often abusers do not want spouses or children seeing physicians etc.

I really do not have a clue as to whether or not he killed JBR. However, this is a very twisted sick man and I think he is quite dangerous. Just looking at him and watching his actions, eye movements and persona gives me that "uh-ho" feeling. Something is not right there and it's good that he is off the streets for now. My biggest fear is that he gets a slap on the wrist for the Sonoma incident, they can't hold him for the JBR murder and he walks free. But you can't imprison someone just because they are creepy. You have to have something.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Apparantly Karr delivered the twins himself. They were born at home. They died. I don't know if they were born dead, full term or what have you.

I was reading the Justice Forum and got the link to the article from there.

http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=5296276&nav=8fap

The correct term is "stillborn".

 

[JBean]

The correct term is "stillborn".

I thought they died that day, were they stillborn?

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

We were talking about this yesterday and it was mentioned that perhaps he had the 3 boys in quick succession because he was trying to have a girl. It is reported that he had little or no interaction with his 3 boys.I have also read that he blamed the wife for the death of Angel and Innocence. Probably would have been his dream come true to have twin girls.

"Angel" and "Innocence".
Pedophiles are famous for using such highly idealized language re children.

 

[SewingDeb]

You are so right Sherlockmom. It is hard to carry twins full term (I had stillborn twins at 23 weeks along). It is so strange that she did not go to the hospital for the next birth because I remember being scared to death that the same thing would happen when I became pregnant again. I think it probably was his idea and a result of his control problem. He probably did not allow her to go to the doctor.

 

[blonde1]

You are so right Sherlockmom. It is hard to carry twins full term (I had stillborn twins at 23 weeks along). It is so strange that she did not go to the hospital for the next birth because I remember being scared to death that the same thing would happen when I became pregnant again. I think it probably was his idea and a result of his control problem. He probably did not allow her to go to the doctor.

She was evidently completely under his control -- if you've never had a creepy guy like this try to bring you into their psycho world, it's hard to believe the crazy stuff they try to insist on -- I had a crazy guy tell me that going to a gyno was "adultery," as would be childbirth in the presence of another man !
I imagine this was her fate, or something equally bizarre.
I'm sorry for her loss.
(I had twins and the docs were very careful -- no way they would have recommended a home birth.)

 

[Wrinkles]

Although I do not know this JMK, and suspect he had/has his problems, I have to wonder at how easily believed the words "he was controlling" were, from his first wife (who was, what, 14?)

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/0818karr.html

It says:

>>
In 1984, still in Hamilton, he married Quientana Shotts, who was 14 at the time. Karr was 19.

On Thursday, she described him as "different" and "possessive."

"I got scared by his ways," said Shotts, who was introduced to Karr by a friend when she was 13. "He never was real violent, just pushy."

Shotts said she was "wooed" by Karr, whom she described as romantic and sensitive during their brief courtship.

"I thought he was very good-looking," she said. After they married, he became overly controlling, Shotts said.

Their marriage ended after nine months and was annulled in March 1985.

In a complaint filed in Marion County, Ala., on Feb. 26, 1985, Shotts claimed Karr forced her to marry through use of "intimidation and fear." The complaint goes on to say that Shotts was fearful for her life and safety.
<<

So...he was "just pushy." He was romantic and sensitive. But...she says he became overly controlling and said he forced her to marry through use of "intimidation and fear." She was fearful for her life and safety.

But...the article also says:

>>
Larry Shotts, Quientana's father, said he never met Karr. In Alabama at that time, minors 14 and older could marry with a parent's consent.

"I didn't even know they got married," he said. "She had lied about her age to get married.

"We've tried to put this behind us but now this brings back a lot of bad memories," he said. "It was a trying time, a tragic time."
<<

Did the father know that this kid was being wooed? He didn't know Karr? He didn't know they got married? She had to have lied about her age or permitted someone to lie for her. Where was this father in such a "small town" where often everyone knows everyone elses business? Just how old did she say she was in order to get married (what was the legal age then)? How old did this girl look to the people who issued the marriage license?

If you have a dad who doesn't even know some guy who you have been hanging with since 13, if you get married and your dad doesn't know (and you are only 14), if you lie or let some one lie for you about your age to get married...then I have a few questions:

1. Who was assisting to guide and control your life as a child?
2. It seems reasonable, in looking at this scenario, that there was a lack of parenting going on. It seems reasonable to assume that this 13 year old was given far more liberty than I have seen other 13 year olds given. Or was this girl sneeky? If this kid escaped her home with a beau at 14, lying or being lied for, if she had the type of liberty that pulled off what occurred, wouldn't she be bugged by any type of authority figure (like a husband)? Wouldn't it have seemed like "controlling?"

Was this father not around? Where was the mother? The father said it was a trying time, a tragic time, a time they tried to put behind them. It sure would have been. Are we going to blame this whole happenstance on a 19 year old "boy"? My "step dad" (who loved me) would have taken that guy and made a toothpick out of him the minute he started hanging out with me at 13.

So...do we believe a girl who lied about her age or had someone lie for her? Do we believe a girl who had so little communication with her parents that they didn't know she was falling in love? Was this girl rebellious? Mentally under par?

If she wanted her marriage annulled, she was going to have to write something that got her that annulment (there are rules). Was what she wrote proven? That dad didn't say his daughter had been beaten, or that they had to put her through counseling for many months after the marriage. He didn't slam JMK. He didn't say he had to pull out the shotgun to keep JMK away after the annulment. He said it was a tragic time. He could have said so much more and he either didn't, or wasn't quoted as doing so.

This was about a year of a girl's life with a 19 year old. This was a 13/14 year old girl's perception. Maybe a rebellious girl? A girl so demure that she had no control over her life? Who knows what this girl was like back then, did they trust her perception? But...we believe her based on a few lines in a news article?

Can someone tell me where the 2nd wife said terrible things about JMK? I haven't read that yet.

Wrinkles

 

[close_enough]

These are the last two lines of the article:

Former Sheriff A-C Tice says the twins were born at home.

Probate Judge Annette Bozeman says Karr apparently delivered his children.

yikes!!...

 

[Sherlockmom]

>Can someone tell me where the 2nd wife said terrible things about JMK? I haven't read that yet<


Well she did say he was caught with kiddie . I guess some people would think that wasn't a compliment

"Also in the divorce petition, Lara Karr wrote that her husband was never physically violent with her but that he was "very controlling" of her. "

This was his second wife. You can read the article here but I've read the same statement by her several other places as well.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/18/KARR.TMP

I believe she also said that an FBI agent or another LE person counseled her to request a restraining order against him to protect her children as they felt Karr was a danger. Another article I read said that he violated this order.

The above article may also be the one where a townsperson interviewed said that Karr "used to lead his young wife around town by the hand".

Of all of Mr. Karr's faults, I believe he would be least offended by mentioning that he may have been controlling of his young wives. Controlling men often like very young women who they can push around. But I believe in Mr. Karr's case he was just a pediophile.

As I said originally, it was just a guy feeling but it was based on several facts I had read to form an opinion about Mr. Karr.

 

[Sherlockmom]

>As I said originally, it was just a guy feeling but it was based on several facts I had read to form an opinion about Mr. Karr.<<


Oops, meant to say a GUT feeling not a GUY feeling LOL!! Another point you mentioned is the parents not mentioning that they were all that upset by it. In that same article i believe they DO mention they were quite upset and had called the police but the police didn't seem eager to help them. He took her to another state to do this.

So I think my opinion of Mr. Karr and the situation in relationship to both of his x-wives was based on things I had read and statements from others. That is what helped me form my opinion. But I respect your vehement and passionate defense of Mr. Karr.

 

[blonde1]

Although I do not know this JMK, and suspect he had/has his problems, I have to wonder at how easily believed the words "he was controlling" were, from his first wife (who was, what, 14?)

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/0818karr.html

It says:

>>
In 1984, still in Hamilton, ...
Can someone tell me where the 2nd wife said terrible things about JMK? I haven't read that yet.

Wrinkles

Really interesting article about the first wife and family.
I think that these types of controlling guys typically look for youngsters in order to "mold" them to whatever weirdness they're in to -- children, and sometimes adults, don't always perceive the danger of control freaks - they usually have a sensitive/romantic side that manipulates and sets the trap for the unsuspecting mate -- when the truth becomes painfully obvious, the mate ends up in court, seeking protection and divorce from the person. I can sympathize with the 1st wife's family wanting to put the whole thing behind them.
It's important to the controller to have total obedience, especially in matters like childbirth, when the mate might form an alliance with a child that threatens the crazy guy.
Interesting that he even allowed the wife to have children, but maybe that's because he saw his wife getting older and really wanted children for his own purposes.

 

[newtv]

OB/Gyn search for Hamilton, Alabama

As of today, unless the search missed it, closest docs are in Winfield, 19 miles away?

GP search for Hamilton, Alabama

As of today, unless the search missed it, one doctor appears to be in Hamilton, the rest appear to be 20+ miles away.

So if your wife, pregnant with twins, goes into hard labor, do you cut out hoping to get to a hospital? Hope you don't have to pull over on a somewhat less travelled road or on a highway to try and deliver the babies? How long would it take for an ambulance to arrive to your home in Hamilton? In 1989 at the age of 24, do you own a cell phone?

her lawyer said they were dirt poor-so maybe he didnt have the money..

 

[SewingDeb]

She was evidently completely under his control -- if you've never had a creepy guy like this try to bring you into their psycho world, it's hard to believe the crazy stuff they try to insist on -- I had a crazy guy tell me that going to a gyno was "adultery," as would be childbirth in the presence of another man !
I imagine this was her fate, or something equally bizarre.
I'm sorry for her loss.
(I had twins and the docs were very careful -- no way they would have recommended a home birth.)

Blonde1,

I hope you were not married to the crazy guy! That is too wierd for words.

Multiples do have to be handled differently. So many things can go wrong during delivery.

I don't think doctors would go along with a home birth for a teenager either.

 

[SewingDeb]

More info on the first wife:
Williams assumed Karr graduated with the Class in 1983, but Marion County School System Superintendent Bravell Jackson said Karr left Hamilton High School in the fall of his senior year.

A short time later, Karr met a young girl named Quientana Shotts.

Shotts told the Atlanta Journal- Constitution she was 14 at the time, but her mother, Melissa Shotts, said her daughter was 12. Quientana Shotts said she is 35 now.

The two met through friends. In mid-1984, Melissa Shotts said, Karr took Quientana across the state line to Georgia, where they were married.

Melissa Shotts, who said the marriage happened without her knowledge, declined to offer many details. But she said the ordeal was traumatic.

"No one can understand what we went through at the time," she said. "This happened 20 years ago, and to see him on the news, we were shocked."

Quientana Shotts, who later remarried, becoming Quientana Ray, told the Journal-Constitution in Atlanta that she was "wooed" by Karr, but that he became overly controlling.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4926207,00.html

 

[Wrinkles]

Hiya SherlockMom,

You wrote:
>>But I respect your vehement and passionate defense of Mr. Karr.<<

Well, honestly, I don't want to vehemently or passionately defend this man. Even so, I suppose that I feel there is a lot of jumping to conclusions (rather than just speculating) and it is fairly well slaying this guy. Does he deserve to be slain? Perhaps he does. Granted, he apparently has some BIG problems, but the extent of what they are just isn't entirely clear to me yet. I'm trying to put together the quotes of those who have known him, but I am also trying to consider the sources of those quotes.

SM, at the moment, I'm leaning towards thinking that this guy is just really very very very mentally ill. I'm not totally convinced about a number of things yet, need more evidence. At this point, I am feeling like this guy is a very sad, tragic figure. I haven't moved from that sadness to an anger yet, because all I have heard are allegations. If proofs come out on any number of things, I assure you...I will be moving to anger and outrage.

The defensiveness you sense is a bit of playing devil's advocate, or trying to look at both sides of the coin.

Thanks to you and to SewingDeb for sharing certain information which you have found. It is much appreciated.

Wrinkles

 

[pinto]

....
(I had twins and the docs were very careful -- no way they would have recommended a home birth.)

No kidding ... my sister-in-law actually was supposed to move in with my mom during the last few weeks of her pregnancy with twins. She lived in the mountains (but close to the hospital in Summit County, CO, which isn't exactly backwoods), yet they wanted her in Denver. She ended up getting put on bedrest, even before that, so she was in Denver for longer than expected.

These doctors wanted not only a hospital birth, but a BIG URBAN HOSPITAL birth.

 

[Sherlockmom]

Another opinion from someone who knew them. There is more in the article at the link. This, if it can be believed, paints a pretty bleak picture of this man.

"John Mark Karr was so smothering and jealous that friends say when Lara became pregnant with twins, which the couple wanted to name Angel and Innocence, he refused to take her to the hospital. The twins died in childbirth.


"He was afraid the doctors would ogle her," said a classmate who lived nearby and would only be identified as Renae. "She was very pretty and he was obsessed with her. He had to be right next to her at all times."

Shortly after their wedding, Karr brought Lara back to the town he grew up in, Hamilton, Ala. - much to her parents' alarm.



Although Karr projected an easygoing persona to some, pals who knew the couple in the tiny northwest Alabama town said he had a dark side that exploded in private.

They say he didn't work and they suspected he used drugs.

After the birth of the couple's first son, John, Karr threatened to kill Lara and the child, says Renae.

She often escaped to a nearby graveyard.

"Lara would run up into Rocky Grove cemetery at night and hide from him," she said. "Other times she'd come over to my house crying. She'd bring some cookies or fudge, but would be afraid to eat them. She thought he was trying to poison her."

"He was so obnoxious and controlling," said Renae. "Once, after their third son was born, I went over there and he was so zonked out it took him 10 minutes to answer the door." He also forced her to scrimp - although he tried to put on a successful image for outsiders"

More here:

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/from_cradle_to_the_grave_nationalnews_philip_recchia.htm

 

[SewingDeb]

No kidding ... my sister-in-law actually was supposed to move in with my mom during the last few weeks of her pregnancy with twins. She lived in the mountains (but close to the hospital in Summit County, CO, which isn't exactly backwoods), yet they wanted her in Denver. She ended up getting put on bedrest, even before that, so she was in Denver for longer than expected.

These doctors wanted not only a hospital birth, but a BIG URBAN HOSPITAL birth.

I had a big urban hospital birth and still lost both of mine. Carrying multiples is high risk and many of the babies don't make it.

 

[BirdieBoo]

Dear lord, what was he doing to make his young wife feel that she was safer hanging out in a graveyard at night than being with him?

This just gave me the bad heebie jeebies.