KC's "Brain Development"

[ynotdivein]

Link to Danziger/Weitz thread here.

 

[gamom]

even the simplist of minds can understand right from wrong. I am not buying the brain development or "lack there of"

 

[Teresa]

I have worked with children who have autism. Casey does NOT have autism. It sorta angers me to even suggest such a thing. Casey knows how to manipulate people and situations to meet her needs. A person with autism wouldn't have a clue how to make things happen to meet their needs. They know what THEY want but are clueless how to make it happen. Casey know what she wants and how to make it happen. Stealing checks, forging grandmas account and such. The only disease Casey has is she just doesn't give a fig about anyone but herself.

Teresa

 

[MissJames]

Casey from all accountss seemed quite socialable. I though anyone affected by asperger's syndrome's is anti-social.

It's not that they are anti-social,they just don't always have the typical social skills. Asperger's is on the Autism spectrum and there are varying degrees .
SOME people with Asperger's don't "read" social cues the way most people do. They may appear rude or uncaring because they don't process other peoples reactions . Some of their responses to situations can appear inappropriate,like laughing during a serious situation.

 

[jenlara420]

I don't think of "brain development" as being related to Casey's intelligence. I think it's possible that AF is referring to a possible brain anomaly like Asperger's or Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. jmo

My daughter has asperger's, crazy has nothing like that! Moo

 

[NocturnalLady]

I have to step out here for a bit but I really want to poke around in Danziger and Weitz's threads and review their studies. Something is telling me that AF may be referencing that her brain development was normal intellectually, but physiologically diferent in some way that impacted processing of emotions or recognizing risky behavior? :waitasec:

If they have actual proof of any physiological deficits in Casey's brain I will be happy to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe that she had some physical problem which contributed to her crimes. If they are just going to point to the seizure I'd call foul. Absent actual MRI's and comparative studies of Casey's brain I don't really give the "brain development" angle the time of day. I'm pretty sure we'd know if they had done any such studies of Casey so I'm not too worried anything will come of this except more defense hot air.

 

[NocturnalLady]

My son has full custody of the children, but the NARC continues to haunt us. She didn't want the children & gave them up willingly about 2 years ago.

The children refuse to visit with her, so she has now started another court proceeding, trying to get visitation.

The judge ordered a psychological eval on her & so far, the PHD doing the eval, sees what she is & will likely be denied any visitation at all.

We do not see her or talk to her. She is CRAZY and like most narcissists, blames my son for everything & also wants revenge on him.

She's getting it, he is financially ruined with all the legal fees.

This makes her HAPPY even though all his financial problems, affect the children & limit what they can do (activities) and any other need they may have.

We're hoping (finally) that the courts decision will finally STOP her, but who knows.

Narcissists will not be denied what they want & right now she will not accept that the kids absolutely HATE her. She is determined to FORCE them to see her (not going to happen) but in her mind, she is not the problem.

IF the court decides she cannot see them, we plan to move to another state to get away from her. Sad, isn't it, but that is what we have decided is our only course of action, since she is relentless.

She's also an alcohlic, like many narcissists, they have addictive personalities & turn to alcohol & drugs.

They are very dangerous, so be careful if either of these people are still in your life in any way. They are also stalkers, but seems you found that out already.

Seperating from them can be dangerous, so watch your back.

Just MO from dealing with my own rageful narcissist...but I think the only hope for escaping a narcissist is -
1. Hope and Pray that they come across something or someone else that distracts them and absorbs their attention away from you.
2. Do not feed them by giving them any attention of any kind ever.
3. Move away from wherever they live as quickly and as quietly as you can as soon as their back is turned.
You are absolutely right that they easily turn into stalkers. I hope that your ex-DIL finds a new relationship that distracts and feeds her long enough for your grand kids to get away.

Sheesh when I start thinking of it in these terms I almost feel sorry for Casey dealing with Cindy. Problem is I think they are both narcissists so I think the blame goes both ways!

 

[NocturnalLady]

I just want to add something about brain development. It has been proven that the brain is not fully developed at the age of 20 and it takes a few more years to do that. Meaning that teenagers and young adults DO NOT consider the ramifications of their actions. An e.g. of that is a young man who went to jail for some 15 years for killing his girlfriend's father (who she said was sexually abusing her - which was untrue). The young man, who is now a lawyer, said he NEVER once considered the ramifications when he waited for the father outside of his house and shot him dead. I think that is extremely important. Anyone who has children will understand that when they have to tell a teenager over and over again, think about what you are doing. And they never seem to. Having said all that, I think she is a sociopath and as this trial has gotten underway and I have watched practically evertything, I believe in my heart that Cindy and George have had a monumental lapse in their parenting to the point of the detriment of KC. E.g. letting her steal upwards of 3000 a month starting (that I know of) in January 2008, for two months and then several hundred for months after. Letting her do this, but be home on time with the baby. LEtting her lie about going to work, but be home on time with the baby. We all know she was staying atj Ricardo's some five days a week for a few months starting in Feb. 2008. Cindy lied about this. I believe Ricardo. So stay out five nights a week, rob me blind, lie about work, BUT TAKE GOOD CARE OF THE BABY. This in no way excuses the crime. She is a sociopath and I believe the time to fix that is over. But this is not a death penalty case. It is a lwop case., imo. And if she were to get off, I am going to say, there is a possibility she could do it again, if she felt she needed to and got awy with this. But I believe wholeheartedly that Cindy bears responsibility for this coming to pass. Children are not born knowing the right thing. They are taught it and she was allowed to lie, steal, to an incredible magnitude and leave havoc in her way. No one reined her in. It is extremely sad on all fronts. I cannot imagine how George and Cindy are going to react to being accused of everything under the sun. They are gong to be. No doubt. But it appears that they are denying sexual abuse. So they are not willing to go that far for her. Things could change dramatically when George gets up there on the stand.

Very good point about brain development in terms of age. I wonder what AF was getting at was as simple as that?

I agree with everything else you said as well except that I would say the blame lies with Cindy AND George. Casey was lucky enough to have two parents (unfortunately two really bad ones) and they both are responsible for the parenting they did or failed to do. I think George just gets a pass too easily on this one most of the time because I think it's human nature to feel like mothers bear the ultimate responsibility for child raising.

 

[NocturnalLady]

MOO- 21 years in pediatrics tells me LA has asperger's with almost certainty. My dad has it
and graduated from GA TECH
It's more of a social disorder than intelligence.
ICA runs more in the spectrum of high functioning autism.BUT I can only base my opinion on what I have witnessed on TV.
I. see ZERO indication of fetal alcohol syndrome. GOOGLE IT! ICA looks NOTHING like FAS.
JMOO!

Wow - great thought about Lee. ITA that could be what is going on. There are plenty of people with Aspergers that you would never be able to tell unless you knew them really well and were sensitive to it and looking for it. I know many many people who have it and never even thought of that in relation to Lee until you mentioned it but it makes sense.

 

[DawnTCB]

It has been my impression throughout the jury selection so far that the elaboration on the mitigating factors were more to plant seeds of possibility in these jurors minds. Of course, I understand they have to discuss the possible mitigating factors, but JB has pointed out that this is their only chance to talk to these jurors 1:1, and the way these possible mitigating factors have been brought up is very interesting. In the ones I have heard, she has started with age... whether someone thinks her age should be a mitigating factor or not, there is no question that she WAS young. Then they bring up lack of maturity, which, even if no one ever mentions the word "immature" in the entire trial, that will be obvious even to someone who might want to acquit. Then after some discussion they bring up other possible mitigating factors: impulse control problems, abuse, and things about brain disorders. It made me wonder if they have no intention of attempting to prove ANY of these, but they list them as possibilities right after her age, which is not disputable and her immaturity which is virtually indisputable, in the hopes that some jurors may be influenced to believe the other factors were true too.

I don't think she had a brain disorder, and I don't think they will try to prove she did. I think they will just let this possibility linger in the minds of these jurors, in the hopes that it might make a difference.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

:waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

Does ICA even have a brain ? Seriously ... IF she even has "half a brain" ... she would tell the TRUTH and "plea" before she gets a "death sentence".

Back to the question: KC's "Brain Development" ... just more BS the DT is throwing out there in mid-air to see if it will fly ... The DT must be really "desperate" !

I'm not buying it ...

:cow::cow::cow:

 

[cuppy199]

I dont think there was anything wrong with ICA Brain Development. I guess the DT still believe in this day and age its easier for a jury to believe a pretty young girl like ICA has something medically wrong. Now a days through more and more jury's know pure evil when they see it :twocents:

 

[Caligram]

The DT is acknowledging ICA is guilty by focusing so desperately on any "excuse" for the murder of Caylee Marie. They seem to hope that the jury panel will believe JB when he splains all about ICA's mental disadvantages, and they will say "Aha, now I get it. Now I understand." Hopefully ICA will get it, as will JB when the Florida bar catches up with him, along with CA and GA. People should get what they deserve. Absolutely.

 

[Firefly]

It's not that they are anti-social,they just don't always have the typical social skills. Asperger's is on the Autism spectrum and there are varying degrees .
SOME people with Asperger's don't "read" social cues the way most people do. They may appear rude or uncaring because they don't process other peoples reactions . Some of their responses to situations can appear inappropriate,like laughing during a serious situation.

They could go with some kind of Brain Disorder. Aspberger's will NEVER fly with all of the calculated lying, stealing, bumping and grinding...er....dancing ICA did.

If you want a very close example of an Aspberger's personality, you must need to YouTube the SHELDON character from BIG BANG THEORY. He has all the social quirkiness of the syndrome. Casey is no where near being Asberger's (I have had experience with autistic children) or any Autistic spectrum disorders for that matter. JMHO.

 

[dodie20]

I think there's something wrong with her, but I don't know if there's a name for it. Yes, she's spoiled, selfish, a control freak, a criminal, probably a narcicist and a sociopath, but why is she those things? because of the way she was raised? or something medical? I have a niece who is very much like KC and I've spent years trying to figure her out. She was raised by her grandparents and has never, not once, been made to suffer the consequences of her behavior. Once when she was about 12, a mother at Mcdonalds complained to the grandma because she was hitting her 5 year old son. Grandma got furious with the mother for telling. typical reaction. She has been caught stealing, being mean to the neighbors, being promiscuous with the weirdest guys she can find, (one was in trouble for beastiality), all of her pets 'mysteriously' died, she would go to viewings whenever a child would die...she's just a mean person and runs that house. In her mother's defense, she did try to discipline her at times, but the grandmother wouldn't have it. The grandma treated my daughter, her grandaughter too!!! like a rival. IDK what's going to happen to her. She's 21 and her grandparents are getting old. I don't think she'll ever change. I don't think she CAN change. Was she born this way? I don't think so, but somewhere along the line, her brain got messed up by the way she was raised, and I truly believe it's irreversible. I think it's too late. anyway...that's my 2 cents.

 

[Whisperer]

Haven't read much yet on this thread and am sorry if it has been discussed. When I worked in MH, Organic Brain Damage had to be dx'd prior to the age of 13 to collect any kind of disabilityand it is a disability. ICA shows no sign of disability. Her parents have said she has never been in counseling. Perhaps things have changed or are different from state to state and a DX isn't necessary but I doubt it. She doesn't show any signs, symptoms of Organic Brain Damage.

Since they have not offerred up any information and the State has not be allowed to examine her, I doubt they can testify to anything of sorts. I assume all the hoopla is, as we all think, a distraction and a looking glass into the wonderful world of mitigating factors in the Penalty phase. It appears to me that the DT believe that ICA is going to be convicted. None of these mitigating factors will be considered because the aggravating factors outweigh them.

 

[Whisperer]

If the DT had any solid evidence of ANY brain disorder, it would have been shouted from the rooftops. They have not shared any discovery on her MH to my kge.

They will try to bring in Jesse Grund to talk about Cindy and also Casey..imo. He has a lot to say concerning casey after the birth of Caylee. He was kind and spoke well of casey. He wanted to marry her. He did not like cindy and according to him cindy was very much in control and did not like Jesse. I suspect CA didn't like him because he was a big threat. If he married ICA, she would lose Caylee. In cindy's mind, she WAS the mother of Caylee.

The only DXs I see that Casey may have is Bipolar disorder Axis I and Borderline personality Axis !!. She exhibits Extreme Narcissism. Her mother also exhibits these traits. I see CA and ICA as a reflection of each other and would say they are enmeshed. Lee and GA have learned to deal with them and have brought their own quirks into this chaos.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Interesting. Do you still talk/see to your DIL? How does one separate from someone like this? Who protects the kids if this is not a recognized mental health disorder?
I've met two in my life. One was a boss- finally had to quit to regain some control- other was a friend I ended up changing phone numbers and hoping for the best.

My step father was dx'd ASPD- the only way we got him out of our life was him dying.

 

[Just Jayla]

It has been my impression throughout the jury selection so far that the elaboration on the mitigating factors were more to plant seeds of possibility in these jurors minds. Of course, I understand they have to discuss the possible mitigating factors, but JB has pointed out that this is their only chance to talk to these jurors 1:1, and the way these possible mitigating factors have been brought up is very interesting. In the ones I have heard, she has started with age... whether someone thinks her age should be a mitigating factor or not, there is no question that she WAS young. Then they bring up lack of maturity, which, even if no one ever mentions the word "immature" in the entire trial, that will be obvious even to someone who might want to acquit. Then after some discussion they bring up other possible mitigating factors: impulse control problems, abuse, and things about brain disorders. It made me wonder if they have no intention of attempting to prove ANY of these, but they list them as possibilities right after her age, which is not disputable and her immaturity which is virtually indisputable, in the hopes that some jurors may be influenced to believe the other factors were true too.

I don't think she had a brain disorder, and I don't think they will try to prove she did. I think they will just let this possibility linger in the minds of these jurors, in the hopes that it might make a difference.

BBM-Not too long ago, children were expected to be out of the house at 18 and off to start their lives, if nothing else but to ease the burden on their parents. My father traveled from Memphis to California, to Detroit and back in those late teen years, on his own with no one back home to support him.
I had my own child at 19 years old, like KC, and got a job, an apartment and left an abusive baby-daddy all on my own by 21.
Mark Zuckerberg founded Facebook at 20 years old, was a billionaire (and a sued individual) shortly thereafter, which requires great responsibility.
There is nothing about being 22 years old that makes you less protective of life, less accountable, less capable-It is all about, IMO, how you were raised, your values, and your integrity.
KC was mature enough to know that the body had to be hidden, excuses made for decomp smell, her parents and authority avoided, how to work friends into giving her a place to stay, forging checks, etc. Not to say that she did these things well, but she knew there were several important steps in covering up a crime. THAT is not a sign of naivete-It is a sign of a calculated murderer, a rookie murderer, yes-but a calculated, delete-all-from-the-PC and crash-the-laptop murderer.

 

[mankato64]

As having taught special ed kids in the past, ICA does not have Aspbergers, that is how I spell it. More like Social Behavior Disorder. She simply does not believe that the rules of society apply to her...nuff said.