Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[UKGuy]

I've never really paid attention to the bowl of pineapple, but noticed that it says half eaten chunks of pineapple in the bowl. I wonder if someone got pissed if JonBenet.


Does anyone else worry about that walk in fridge where the pineapple was kept? What kept the door open for a little girl?

ILikeToBendPages,
These might have been the tough chunks, so JonBenet gave up on them, or she just decided she had had enough, or someone persuaded her to do something else?

There was also condensed milk in the bowl, a point always absent in other theories. Since the condensed milk along with the pineapple increase the likelyhood that it was prepared after they arrived home.

From Burke's fingerprints on the bowl you can infer his presence during the pineapple snack. Who knows he may even have served it up, opening up the condensed milk for JonBenet? The teabag inside the glass on the table corroborates the theory that Burke was present, since he was the resident tea-drinker.

Along with the pineapple residue found in JonBenet's stomach, partially digested, this offers a timeline prior to her death, and places JonBenet along with Burke in the breakfast bar at some point on returning from the White's.


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[midwest mama]

ILikeToBendPages,
These might have been the tough chunks, so JonBenet gave up on them, or she just decided she had had enough, or someone persuaded her to do something else?

There was also condensed milk in the bowl, a point always absent in other theories. Since the condensed milk along with the pineapple increase the likelyhood that it was prepared after they arrived home.

From Burke's fingerprints on the bowl you can infer his presence during the pineapple snack. Who knows he may even have served it up, opening up the condensed milk for JonBenet? The teabag inside the glass on the table corroborates the theory that Burke was present, since he was the resident tea-drinker.

Along with the pineapple residue found in JonBenet's stomach, partially digested, this offers a timeline prior to her death, and places JonBenet along with Burke in the breakfast bar at some point on returning from the White's.


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So, statement from PR and JR said she had gone to sleep, after putting JB down, and JR supposedly saw to getting Burke to bed, then he said he took a melatonin cap, and read for a while.

How about JR was awake reading, but heard the kids getting up. He went in to check on JB, turning on her bedside lamp. (Would have accounted for cops finding it on the next morning). Left it on to have light when she came back to bed. Checked Burke's room, no Burke, so he went downstairs to find them just having a bit of snack. 'Suggested' they get back up to bed, which Burke does, but JB still wired and whiney from Christmas want's Daddy to help her use the bathroom before going back to sleep. She was said to have wanted adults to help her, and especially was a Daddy's girl.

Well, JR decided he would, which led to ..................... the rest of the story with JR as her killer, if not a premeditated killing

I personally have other feelings why JR could have been the one to murder his daughter, if he had premeditated it. How about wanting to try to stop her from revealing the truth about their dirty household secrets, or he even had become involved in an outside group of pedo's who stood to be exposed?
There was a comment made, iirc, from someone who said Beth's death had changed John, and if he was already psychologically deviant, as there were rumors surrounding Beth's death suggested, it would have only gotten worse after her death.

And last but not least, maybe he had set up a last minute Christmas celebration for one (maybe even two) of his very best group members. Which is why he stayed up after the kids had gone to bed, and planned on getting JB back up, only to have the kids get ahead of him for the snack. Then he had to get Burke back up to bed, and the rest with JB could have unfolded. Still sketchy in thinking through the details, so won't lock myself into this theory just yet.

 

[DeeDee249]

So, statement from PR and JR said she had gone to sleep, after putting JB down, and JR supposedly saw to getting Burke to bed, then he said he took a melatonin cap, and read for a while.

How about JR was awake reading, but heard the kids getting up. He went in to check on JB, turning on her bedside lamp. (Would have accounted for cops finding it on the next morning). Left it on to have light when she came back to bed. Checked Burke's room, no Burke, so he went downstairs to find them just having a bit of snack. 'Suggested' they get back up to bed, which Burke does, but JB still wired and whiney from Christmas want's Daddy to help her use the bathroom before going back to sleep. She was said to have wanted adults to help her, and especially was a Daddy's girl.

Well, JR decided he would, which led to ..................... the rest of the story with JR as her killer, if not a premeditated killing

I personally have other feelings why JR could have been the one to murder his daughter, if he had premeditated it. How about wanting to try to stop her from revealing the truth about their dirty household secrets, or he even had become involved in an outside group of pedo's who stood to be exposed?
There was a comment made, iirc, from someone who said Beth's death had changed John, and if he was already psychologically deviant, as there were rumors surrounding Beth's death suggested, it would have only gotten worse after her death.

And last but not least, maybe he had set up a last minute Christmas celebration for one (maybe even two) of his very best group members. Which is why he stayed up after the kids had gone to bed, and planned on getting JB back up, only to have the kids get ahead of him for the snack. Then he had to get Burke back up to bed, and the rest with JB could have unfolded. Still sketchy in thinking through the details, so won't lock myself into this theory just yet.

I just don't see the "group" session with JB on a night when in just a few hours the whole family would be up getting ready to fly out. That night is also a night when kids stay up later playing with their presents (as JR himself stated BR did) and Patsy would have been up and about doing last minute stuff for the trip.
I also have a hard time with the pedo ring stuff. Not per se, but with this case. That is something that is hard for a kid to hide, though the secretive "Monday morning " visits with the school nurse tell me that someone was abusing her on the weekends. JAR comes to mind there, as he came to the house on weekends but stayed on campus during the week.
By all accounts, JB did not have the withdrawn, secretive, almost wistful mannerisms of a kid being sexually assaulted by a large number of people.
The whole issue about the withheld medical records stink to me. The reaction of the pediatrician stinks even more. Your patient is sexually abused and killed and you threaten to "lock up the medical records in a safe" if you have to to keep investigators away??? What part of that sound like there is nothing to hide? FACT- there is SOMETHING to hide- or else why hide it? Why keep it from the very people who are trying to solve the child's murder? And the "island of privacy" the parents demanded regarding the family medical records (specifically BR's) screams something to hide as well.

 

[UKGuy]

So, statement from PR and JR said she had gone to sleep, after putting JB down, and JR supposedly saw to getting Burke to bed, then he said he took a melatonin cap, and read for a while.

How about JR was awake reading, but heard the kids getting up. He went in to check on JB, turning on her bedside lamp. (Would have accounted for cops finding it on the next morning). Left it on to have light when she came back to bed. Checked Burke's room, no Burke, so he went downstairs to find them just having a bit of snack. 'Suggested' they get back up to bed, which Burke does, but JB still wired and whiney from Christmas want's Daddy to help her use the bathroom before going back to sleep. She was said to have wanted adults to help her, and especially was a Daddy's girl.

Well, JR decided he would, which led to ..................... the rest of the story with JR as her killer, if not a premeditated killing

I personally have other feelings why JR could have been the one to murder his daughter, if he had premeditated it. How about wanting to try to stop her from revealing the truth about their dirty household secrets, or he even had become involved in an outside group of pedo's who stood to be exposed?
There was a comment made, iirc, from someone who said Beth's death had changed John, and if he was already psychologically deviant, as there were rumors surrounding Beth's death suggested, it would have only gotten worse after her death.

And last but not least, maybe he had set up a last minute Christmas celebration for one (maybe even two) of his very best group members. Which is why he stayed up after the kids had gone to bed, and planned on getting JB back up, only to have the kids get ahead of him for the snack. Then he had to get Burke back up to bed, and the rest with JB could have unfolded. Still sketchy in thinking through the details, so won't lock myself into this theory just yet.

midwest mama,
Well that JonBenet was denied medical assistance definitely suggests someone preferred her silence to her life.

Why go to such an extreme if there was no sexual assault and it was all staging?

With Dr Beuf refusing access to JonBenet's medical records, thats another red flag!

Seems like JonBenet was being sexually abused and one consequence was all those visits to the school nurse and Dr. Beuf?

The Pedo Ring thing is, I reckon, a bit fanciful, but something less structured might have played a role. There is the extended family and the pageant circuit, which not many have detailed or factored in. That is could JonBenet's pageant activity be correlated with subsequent medical visits or appointments with Dr. Beuf?

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[txsvicki]

I've never really paid attention to the bowl of pineapple, but noticed that it says half eaten chunks of pineapple in the bowl. I wonder if someone got pissed if JonBenet.


Does anyone else worry about that walk in fridge where the pineapple was kept? What kept the door open for a little girl?

What says half eaten chunks were in the bowl? I've read that the rind was left on pieces but not the half eaten ones being in the bowl. Also, PAtsy could have called the doc in december wanting some magic medicine to keep Jonbenet performing as she was said to have done during the chickenpox illness.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

What says half eaten chunks were in the bowl? I've read that the rind was left on pieces but not the half eaten ones being in the bowl.

The Bonita Papers Is where this can be found.

The gingerbread houses made by JonBenet and Burke at the family party only two days before still sat on the dining room table – a melancholy reminder of the laughter and innocence of childhood that had filled the home so recently. Also visible on the dining room table was a bowl of half-eaten pineapple chunks and an empty glass – apparently a late-night snack left from someone the night before.

Now they could of been the hard rind parts. I always thought the half eaten was the bowl of pineapple not the chunks.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

ILikeToBendPages,
These might have been the tough chunks, so JonBenet gave up on them, or she just decided she had had enough, or someone persuaded her to do something else?

There was also condensed milk in the bowl, a point always absent in other theories. Since the condensed milk along with the pineapple increase the likelyhood that it was prepared after they arrived home.

From Burke's fingerprints on the bowl you can infer his presence during the pineapple snack. Who knows he may even have served it up, opening up the condensed milk for JonBenet? The teabag inside the glass on the table corroborates the theory that Burke was present, since he was the resident tea-drinker.

Along with the pineapple residue found in JonBenet's stomach, partially digested, this offers a timeline prior to her death, and places JonBenet along with Burke in the breakfast bar at some point on returning from the White's.


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I think Pasty left it out from their Christmas morning feast. John said JonBenet was underfoot and helping make pancakes, and Burke may of been helping Pasty set the table and his prints are from then. We've heard about Pasty housekeeping skills so it's not hard to see that option.

The glass with the teabag...in PMPT the Pastor said he was heating up a glass in the microwave when Fleet White came running past him ,and yelled for them to call for an ambulance.

 

[UKGuy]

I think Pasty left it out from their Christmas morning feast. John said JonBenet was underfoot and helping make pancakes, and Burke may of been helping Pasty set the table and his prints are from then. We've heard about Pasty housekeeping skills so it's not hard to see that option.

The glass with the teabag...in PMPT the Pastor said he was heating up a glass in the microwave when Fleet White came running past him ,and yelled for them to call for an ambulance.

ILikeToBendPages,
What the R's say is debatable, did they video their Christmas Morning gift exchange etc, or were the batteries not charged?

In general there might be an infinity of reasons why the teaglass was sitting on the table, why fibers from Patsy's jacket were deposited into the wine-cellar, why a bowl of pineapple sat on the breakfast bar table, why Patsy said she placed 7 pairs of size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, why the R's never factored the pineapple snack, including Burke Ramsey, into their version of events.

That is Pasty's housekeeping skills are the norm, secondary transfer is less probable than primary transfer, fingerprints suggest something that their absence does not, was the Pastors glass the same glass?

The only reasons I am interested in are those that are consistent with a RDI, since we already have prima fascie evidence that the R's are complicit, all three.

So all this stuff about fibers floating through the air, or via secondary transfer, or Patsy telling lies, JonBenet eating hours old pineapple, Pastor Haverstock heating a glass, is interesting but actually does not explain the inconsistencies in either the R's version of events or members favorite theories, since both normally cannot be reconciled.


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[claudicici]

If she left it out in the morning it would be a bit too much of a coincidence that something similar was found in Jon Benet and was said to be eaten no more than 2 hours ( I think it was) before her death IMO

 

[UKGuy]

If she left it out in the morning it would be a bit too much of a coincidence that something similar was found in Jon Benet and was said to be eaten no more than 2 hours ( I think it was) before her death IMO

claudicici,
But why should Patsy's lax housekeeping transfer over into a homicide staging, which also includes the addition of Condensed Milk, or was that also left over from the morning?

Somehow I think not!


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[claudicici]

exactly,I don't think so either.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Also, patsy never did housework so she could have put dirty sheets from the 24th back on the bed to make it appear that jonbenet was in her bed that night and had wet.

If Pasty did put the dirty sheets back on JonBenet's bed, that would point to something happening to her in a clean up in the bathroom where the red turtle neck was found in a ball that night. Much like what was found that morning. I think JonBenet never went to bed that night. No, I think someone overlooked those sheets. Much like the pineapple.

Does anyone know if (other than her dirty fingernails) if it looked like JonBenet had been "bathed or rinsed off" before someone wiped her down? Or did she smell like dirty sheets?


Such a shame for a little girl to still be going though after all these years.

 

[midwest mama]

If Pasty did put the dirty sheets back on JonBenet's bed, that would point to something happening to her in a clean up in the bathroom where the red turtle neck was found in a ball that night. Much like what was found that morning. I think JonBenet never went to bed that night. No, I think someone overlooked those sheets. Much like the pineapple.

Does anyone know if (other than her dirty fingernails) if it looked like JonBenet had been "bathed or rinsed off" before someone wiped her down? Or did she smell like dirty sheets?


Such a shame for a little girl to still be going though after all these years.

I read on another site about NO DNA being found on JB's body, indicating maybe she had been bathed. And if that were true, it would have had to be before she was wiped down, leaving behind the fiber evidence and the additional blood evidence on her thighs.

Was there later proved to be DNA evidence found anywhere else on her body, other than her own through the blood evidence or the specimens collected from under her fingernails? Or could we speculate that perhaps she was bathed prior to the assault and redressing? :dunno:

 

[DeeDee249]

I read on another site about NO DNA being found on JB's body, indicating maybe she had been bathed. And if that were true, it would have had to be before she was wiped down, leaving behind the fiber evidence and the additional blood evidence on her thighs.

Was there later proved to be DNA evidence found anywhere else on her body, other than her own through the blood evidence or the specimens collected from under her fingernails? Or could we speculate that perhaps she was bathed prior to the assault and redressing? :dunno:

I don't think the "No DNA" finding means that she had been bathed. I think it means that there was no body fluids (semen, blood, saliva) from sources OTHER than JB herself. Patsy said she didn't recall when JB had been bathed last, but she was certain she hadn't been bathed Christmas Day before going to the White's. Then again, Patsy isn't a credible witness. One thing is certain- if she was bathed, it was BEFORE she was wiped down and before JR's shirt fibers got into her panties, or that evidence would have been washed away.
BTW, I can't believe Patsy truly didn't know when she last bathed her daughter.

 

[midwest mama]

I don't think the "No DNA" finding means that she had been bathed. I think it means that there was no body fluids (semen, blood, saliva) from sources OTHER than JB herself. Patsy said she didn't recall when JB had been bathed last, but she was certain she hadn't been bathed Christmas Day before going to the White's. Then again, Patsy isn't a credible witness. One thing is certain- if she was bathed, it was BEFORE she was wiped down and before JR's shirt fibers got into her panties, or that evidence would have been washed away.
BTW, I can't believe Patsy truly didn't know when she last bathed her daughter.

Right! So could this denial be another attempt to confuse the scene from the time they arrived home from the White's? No bath, per Patsy for how long, getting on a plane to Michigan early on the 26th? You'd think Patsy would have wanted to give JB a bath that night yet, which could have made JB even the more cantankerous and crabby to get on Patsy's nerves?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Right! So could this denial be another attempt to confuse the scene from the time they arrived home from the White's? No bath, per Patsy for how long, getting on a plane to Michigan early on the 26th? You'd think Patsy would have wanted to give JB a bath that night yet, which could have made JB even the more cantankerous and crabby to get on Patsy's nerves?

I don't mean as a "bath" but as rinsing her off in the tub if there had been (like from the waist down) an accident that night. The a wipe down if she was still bleeding. Wouldn't they be able to smell her if she hadn't been bathed? And did they look for touch DNA on her body at coroners office?

In rereading the autopsy report I wonder about the time frame of the jab and the time of death. Only because of the swelling of the vaginal injuries.

"McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area."

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful
because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.




I think she very well could of been put in her bed until someone came up with a better plan.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I joined FFJ quite awhile ago, but can't respond or post and I have a question. In the photo that BobC posted of the area below JonBenet's bedroom, is the house in the background the Stantons? I know it's posted as facing west towards the Ramsey's and one house down? Mrs. Stanton bedroom window would be the one in the photo?

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't mean as a "bath" but as rinsing her off in the tub if there had been (like from the waist down) an accident that night. The a wipe down if she was still bleeding. Wouldn't they be able to smell her if she hadn't been bathed? And did they look for touch DNA on her body at coroners office?

In rereading the autopsy report I wonder about the time frame of the jab and the time of death. Only because of the swelling of the vaginal injuries.

"McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area."

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful
because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.




I think she very well could of been put in her bed until someone came up with a better plan.

There was also a bruise on the labia- it seems like the bruising there along with the bruise on the inner thigh point to someone manually separating the labia, just as mentioned.
We really have no way of knowing whether JB was rinsed off, bathed, etc after an accident (toilet or otherwise). All the coroner noted was that she had been wiped down with a cloth. He did not note feces or anything else in or on her body. We can only speculate bout whether there would have been sufficient body odor to be noticeable. Children of that age as a rule do not sweat the way adults or adolescents do, and usually do not have body odor. However, if she had fecal matter that had not been cleaned away obviously that would have resulted in an odor that anyone would notice. I don't think that was the case- even Det. Arndt noted only an "odor of decay" when JR brought up her body. This is an unmistakeable odor that most police are trained to spot, and is very different than an odor from fecal matter or urine, though JB was wearing clothing stained with dried urine, so that would have been part of it too.

He DID find a partial fingerprint on the body which he decided not to mention....

 

[midwest mama]

I don't mean as a "bath" but as rinsing her off in the tub if there had been (like from the waist down) an accident that night. The a wipe down if she was still bleeding. Wouldn't they be able to smell her if she hadn't been bathed? And did they look for touch DNA on her body at coroners office?

In rereading the autopsy report I wonder about the time frame of the jab and the time of death. Only because of the swelling of the vaginal injuries.

"McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area."

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful
because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.




I think she very well could of been put in her bed until someone came up with a better plan.

Hmmm..... If JB were being rinsed (bathed) down in her tub, to clean her up from having an 'accident' (especially if it involved feces), and there were vaginal injuries and a bruise on her inner thigh indicating force, maybe that all could have been caused from someone giving JB a douche as has been discussed before. If there was a good deal of rage at this time, there could have been some internal damage. And rage might have led someone to smear the feces on JB's candy box as retribution.

If JB was being 'muscled' back to her bed, and JB was fighting, could JB have fallen against, or been shoved against one of her end bed post legs, and then collapsed? Could she have been picked up then and laid in her bed against something that had a button or snap on it, which could have caused that abrasion/bruise on her right cheek if she laid there for a while before being redressed and taken to the basement to finish the staging?

 

[UKGuy]

I don't mean as a "bath" but as rinsing her off in the tub if there had been (like from the waist down) an accident that night. The a wipe down if she was still bleeding. Wouldn't they be able to smell her if she hadn't been bathed? And did they look for touch DNA on her body at coroners office?

In rereading the autopsy report I wonder about the time frame of the jab and the time of death. Only because of the swelling of the vaginal injuries.

"McCann also noted that in children of this age group the labia, or vaginal lips, remain closed until literally manually separated. In order for there to be an injury to the hymen without injuring the labia, the labia would have to be manually separated before the object was inserted. The examination also indicated that the assault was done while the child was still alive because of the redness in the surrounding tissue and blood in the area."

McCann stated that this injury would have been very painful
because the area of the injury as indicated by the bruise was at the base of the hymen were most of the nerve endings are located. Such an injury would have caused a six year old child to scream or yell. The doctor also stated that he assumed the object did not have jagged edges because there were no evidence of tears in the bruised area.

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.




I think she very well could of been put in her bed until someone came up with a better plan.

ILikeToBendPages,
Now McCann's findings might represent staging applied shortly before she was asphyxiated.

What do you think: two sexual assaults with one staged?

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