Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[UKGuy]

I don't think the "No DNA" finding means that she had been bathed. I think it means that there was no body fluids (semen, blood, saliva) from sources OTHER than JB herself. Patsy said she didn't recall when JB had been bathed last, but she was certain she hadn't been bathed Christmas Day before going to the White's. Then again, Patsy isn't a credible witness. One thing is certain- if she was bathed, it was BEFORE she was wiped down and before JR's shirt fibers got into her panties, or that evidence would have been washed away.
BTW, I can't believe Patsy truly didn't know when she last bathed her daughter.

DeeDee249,
Patsy would have been there to supervise JonBenet bathing, and to make sure she dressed as desired.

Patsy simply did not want to answer the underwear question, e.g. what color was the pair she took off, and did she dress in a clean new pair or redress in the original pair?

Same question as per putting JonBenet to bed, i.e. was she wearing underwear, she must have been since we would obviously noticed their absence.


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[SapphireSteel]

Ugh just...ugh....

Beyond belief. I can understand why people have so many problems believing seemingly upstanding parents can do something like this.

Extraordinary cruelty.

 

[txsvicki]

I wonder if the small bruises could tell whether a child did it or an adult. You'd think if a child was trying to subdue her that there might be some bruising to the shins or arms and maybe more than one on the labia. A child would also have to deal with her trying to scream. It just seems to me that the bruises could show an adult who had more control over Jonbenet. I believe patsy did say that there was a bath on the 23 rd and Jonbenet was not happy that night. Maybe some of the bruises were from that day.

 

[SapphireSteel]

There is no way on God's earth that Burke could hold a kicking, screaming 6 year old down to inflict these injuries.

Just - impossible. Literally impossible.

My friends 3 year old chucked a fit once, it took both of us to contain her, even then I copped a kick in the stomach.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hmmm..... If JB were being rinsed (bathed) down in her tub, to clean her up from having an 'accident' (especially if it involved feces), and there were vaginal injuries and a bruise on her inner thigh indicating force, maybe that all could have been caused from someone giving JB a douche as has been discussed before. If there was a good deal of rage at this time, there could have been some internal damage. And rage might have led someone to smear the feces on JB's candy box as retribution.

If JB was being 'muscled' back to her bed, and JB was fighting, could JB have fallen against, or been shoved against one of her end bed post legs, and then collapsed? Could she have been picked up then and laid in her bed against something that had a button or snap on it, which could have caused that abrasion/bruise on her right cheek if she laid there for a while before being redressed and taken to the basement to finish the staging?

The scenario you describe could have happened BUT- falling into a bedpost would never cause a depressed fracture like the one she had. Blunt Force Trauma- she was hit WITH something, not the other way around, and Kolar states in his book that was concluded by everyone who was involved in the case.
I also can't see anything making an abrasion simply by lying on it. Those round marks continue to be a puzzle. If you look at that cheek mark close up- it has layers in it- it isn't flat. The marks on her back seem to be flatter- possibly made by something different? Also livor mortis indicates without question that she wasn't moved, or at least not until it became fixed- hours after her death. The marks would be different if she were on something soft like her bed as opposed to the hard concrete floor of the wineceller. The white marks on her back come from her shirt folds pressing against her skin AFTER death, as she lay flat on her back on the floor.
What also has to be considered is that whatever made the marks on her cheek and back had to have happened while she was alive or they would also look different. A coroner would be able to tell whether the marks were made postmortem.
More than anything, I wish we knew definitively what made those marks!

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I just thought of something....

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.


If she's been hit and is down why would you need to force her legs apart? There would be no resistances if she was in a coma. I can see where someone would hold her legs (leg?) apart to jab her with something.

But if there was a bruise, could that of been someone using force when she was conscious and struggling? I mean as during a cleanup.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

DeeDee249,
Patsy would have been there to supervise JonBenet bathing, and to make sure she dressed as desired.

Patsy simply did not want to answer the underwear question, e.g. what color was the pair she took off, and did she dress in a clean new pair or redress in the original pair?

Same question as per putting JonBenet to bed, i.e. was she wearing underwear, she must have been since we would obviously noticed their absence.


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Pasty didn't make her kids bathe regularly and I really don't see her as being that involved in it that much. At that age most kids want some privacy taking a bath, but then there is a six year old asking for help on the potty.
I know I kept the door open (and the shower curtain closed) to listen if they needed help or fallen and got hurt, other than that small invasion they could stay in there as long as they wanted .

Now the what to wear part, that was only for show JonBenet off. Other than that she could of cared less what her kids wore.


Did JonBenet wear nail polish a lot? I've saw her wearing it in the all white photos taken with Nedra, but wonder if she wore any or if when she didn't, did Pasty see,but never made her clean her nails. Pasty let JonBenet play with makeup (wasn't JonBenet told to take it off on Monday the 23rd?) so nail polish usually goes along with that.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

ILikeToBendPages,
Now McCann's findings might represent staging applied shortly before she was asphyxiated.

What do you think: two sexual assaults with one staged?

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Something happened to JonBenet before that night. The last assault was staged to hide previous molestations or rough cleanups.

 

[midwest mama]

I just thought of something....

McCann also noted that there appeared to be a bruise on the inner right thigh which he though might represent a thumb imprint from forcing the legs apart.


If she's been hit and is down why would you need to force her legs apart? There would be no resistances if she was in a coma. I can see where someone would hold her legs (leg?) apart to jab her with something.

But if there was a bruise, could that of been someone using force when she was conscious and struggling? I mean as during a cleanup.

Possibly during a cleanup, but also possibly during a forced assault.

Maybe the assault started as a 'game', but as the game got too rough and painful, JB might have begun to resist, causing the molester to become more violent. Maybe he needed to grab her and put his hand over her mouth so she would be silenced from screaming.

Then as he held her, maybe he had to drag her a bit (Autopsy report, pg 4: On the posterior aspect of the left lower leg, almost in the midline, approximately 4 inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored.) to enable him to get close enough to pick up a bash weapon? And maybe she was able to wriggle free enough to scream and started to bolt away, as the bash occurred to shut her up. :tears:

The worst of the wounds which caused erosion and blood were made during the staging "jab" as she lay dying in an attempt to hide all the past molestations? :sick:

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Possibly during a cleanup, but also possibly during a forced assault.

Maybe the assault started as a 'game', but as the game got too rough and painful, JB might have begun to resist, causing the molester to become more violent. Maybe he needed to grab her and put his hand over her mouth so she would be silenced from screaming.

Then as he held her, maybe he had to drag her a bit (Autopsy report, pg 4: On the posterior aspect of the left lower leg, almost in the midline, approximately 4 inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored.) to enable him to get close enough to pick up a bash weapon? And maybe she was able to wriggle free enough to scream and started to bolt away, as the bash occurred to shut her up. :tears:

The worst of the wounds which caused erosion and blood were made during the staging "jab" as she lay dying in an attempt to hide all the past molestations? :sick:

But wouldn't there be bruising on her arms and legs from the force it would take to hold her down?

 

[midwest mama]

But wouldn't there be bruising on her arms and legs from the force it would take to hold her down?

You'd think there might be more bruises, ........unless the molester had enough body strength and weight to hold her snugly enough during what might have only been less than a minute of resistance.........especially if he was able to subdue her from behind with one arm around her neck, causing the abrasion on the left front, and the other arm/hand from behind over her mouth, until he had to let go to grab the weapon.

 

[Flatlander]

We are all sitting here trying to figure out what actually happened Christmas night 1996 to little Johnnie B. The JonBenét Ramsey case is the second most famous murder mystery in the world, outranked only by Jack The Ripper.

What is obvious is that all murder investigations start with looking at the family first??? Not this one, that's our problem! The R's household was cleaned while JB still lay cold in the basement. PR sister took 3 car's of evidence from the house. BR whom was suppose to be flying around 7 that morning (his fav. hobby); was obviously told to go to bed and pretend sleep until somebody came and got him. How could he have possibly sleep through all the commotion; honestly?? JR and PR started lying about the pineapple; so they lied from the beginning. Well I just can't remember anything that happened honestly even if I change my story upteen times; great defense and alibi. They ALL remain free from the judicial system today.

Oh how I wish justice for little Johnnie B. as we all do or we wouldn't be here together. She has brought us here. Maybe just maybe all is not lost. Think JR, BR or JAR will ever see :jail:? Me either but we can hope.

 

[midwest mama]

There has been a good deal of expert opinion regarding the head bash of JB occurring before the ligature strangulation, with the strangulation being part of staging.

There has also been much comment about the white ligature being a weapon of sexual torture used on JB, with the head bash occurring almost concurrently.

There has also been speculation about a separate partial hanging, or strangulation, due to the lower set of marks and the large abrasion on the anterior left of JB's neck.

The latest book out by A.James Kolar outlines a time delay of approximately 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation death.

The Autopsy of JB, page 3, final paragraph states:

The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of the midline, a roughly triangular parchment-like rust colored abrasion, which measures 1.5 inches in length, with a maximum width of 0.75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral. The remainder of the abrasions and petechial hemorrhages of the skin above and below the anterior projection of the ligature furrow are non-patterned, purple to rust colored, and present to the midline, right, and left areas of the anterior neck.

A thought........if we interpret the lower set of marks as one of two strangulations, maybe THAT LOWER SET OF MARKS was from the final strangulation that ended JB's life.

Maybe the ligature strangulation which remained on JB and was burrowed into her neck was the first, used as some sort of control maneuver - since the autopsy states ABRASIONS and petechial hemorrhages above and below the ligature cord. Could this have meant JB did struggle against the ligature strangulation, and scratched herself, as it was occurring, and the head bash was then done as an intent to end her?

And, if it was the first strangluation, not killing her, couldn't it have accounted for less blood being found from the head bash, by reducing blood flow? And for some of the other light areas of blood that were found in nose, ears and saliva?

The attacker might then have tried to see if she would revive by shaking and poking, and after waiting and still not seeing her die, might have then used a scarf, piece of soft cloth, or even other rope around the lower portion of her neck, knotting it tight enough to cause the large abrasion, and finally choke JB, until she stopped breathing. It could have remained in place for a time, causing the white blanched mark, before it was removed, since it might have been very recognizable.

The paintbrush handle could have been used as staging as it was noticed JB was very near death, to cover former molestation, then cleaned off and tied into the upper ligature cord after death as part of the staging to make the crime look more heinous, as if it were done by an intruder/predator.

And yes, FLATLANDER, with this sort of horrific murder of a young child, we can most certainly hope, that there is still a time of justice to come. lease:

 

[DeeDee249]

I think all the specialists who reviewed the autopsy concluded that she did not struggle, that she was already unconscious and they all agree the head bash came first. I think the other marks and ligature furrow are there simply because it was tightened more than once.
They also agree that there were no fingernail marks on her neck.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I think all the specialists who reviewed the autopsy concluded that she did not struggle, that she was already unconscious and they all agree the head bash came first. I think the other marks and ligature furrow are there simply because it was tightened more than once.
They also agree that there were no fingernail marks on her neck.

Interesting. Why do you think that could of happened?

 

[midwest mama]

I think all the specialists who reviewed the autopsy concluded that she did not struggle, that she was already unconscious and they all agree the head bash came first. I think the other marks and ligature furrow are there simply because it was tightened more than once.
They also agree that there were no fingernail marks on her neck.

OK......... so what caused the ABRASIONS on her neck above and below the ligature, in the midline, right and left?

Have there been comments made by the experts as to their conclusion on what may have caused them? And, please help me with any references that account for the conclusions, since I must not be very thorough in my reading about some of those aspects.

 

[UKGuy]

OK......... so what caused the ABRASIONS on her neck above and below the ligature, in the midline, right and left?

Have there been comments made by the experts as to their conclusion on what may have caused them? And, please help me with any references that account for the conclusions, since I must not be very thorough in my reading about some of those aspects.

midwest mama,
Nobody knows. Some suggest it was the application of the garrote, moving it about etc.

I reckon there was more than one strangulation episode, and both the garrote and genital injury have been inflicted simply to both stage and mess up the forensic evidence?

I do not see anyone posting on the number of sexual assaults that took place that night?

Its the head bash that confuses me, everything can be explained away or slotted into some RDI theory.


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[DeeDee249]

OK......... so what caused the ABRASIONS on her neck above and below the ligature, in the midline, right and left?

Have there been comments made by the experts as to their conclusion on what may have caused them? And, please help me with any references that account for the conclusions, since I must not be very thorough in my reading about some of those aspects.

Hard to say. We only know they weren't fingernail scratches. As I look at the photos, I see the petechiae, and some of the reddish areas that I assume are the abrasions. I would say that they were caused by the application of the cord before it was tightened and pulled so deep it caused the furrows. It may have caused the abrasions from rubbing her throat as the garrote was made. Ot they could have been made by the hand of the person who wound the cord around her neck.
My references came from Kolar's book- he stated that the coroner and other specialists concluded that she did not struggle, and was unconscious when the garrote was applied, as well as the tape. He also said that there was agreement on this among the specialists who reviewed the autopsy report and photos. Mayer was said to have stated that the circumferential nature of the furrow was one of the indications that she was never suspended in any way and that she wasn't moving when the cord was tightened.
Unfortunately, I no longer have the book in my possession, as I borrowed it, or I would be able to provide pages. Hopefully I will get my own copy soon.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Hard to say. We only know they weren't fingernail scratches. As I look at the photos, I see the petechiae, and some of the reddish areas that I assume are the abrasions. I would say that they were caused by the application of the cord before it was tightened and pulled so deep it caused the furrows. It may have caused the abrasions from rubbing her throat as the garrote was made. Ot they could have been made by the hand of the person who wound the cord around her neck.
My references came from Kolar's book- he stated that the coroner and other specialists concluded that she did not struggle, and was unconscious when the garrote was applied, as well as the tape. He also said that there was agreement on this among the specialists who reviewed the autopsy report and photos. Mayer was said to have stated that the circumferential nature of the furrow was one of the indications that she was never suspended in any way and that she wasn't moving when the cord was tightened.
Unfortunately, I no longer have the book in my possession, as I borrowed it, or I would be able to provide pages. Hopefully I will get my own copy soon.

OK, I know you're doing a big post and discussion of FFJ today and I've been over there reading about the window in the train room. If you look in the photos of the shelf in the train room, under the Death on the Nile poster, there is a can of Dr. Pepper. Something like that could break a window and make a mark. Just how big is the hole in the window? Big enough for a mans hand to reach through? At that angle? Without getting cut?

 

[DeeDee249]

OK, I know you're doing a big post and discussion of FFJ today and I've been over there reading about the window in the train room. If you look in the photos of the shelf in the train room, under the Death on the Nile poster, there is a can of Dr. Pepper. Something like that could break a window and make a mark. Just how big is the hole in the window? Big enough for a mans hand to reach through? At that angle? Without getting cut?

JR said that he did reach though the hole with his hand and unlocked the window, so assuming he actually did that, it is possible.
As for the soda can- I suppose it could have broken the window, but it would have been dented or damaged in some way. I'll gave to take a look over there and see what the can looks like.
I suppose you could say that ANYTHING at all could have broken the window- I don't think it was the soda can. If you were outside breaking it, you'd simply pick up a rock. If you were inside...well the basement is crammed with things that could have been used.