Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[OpenMind4U]

Fleet says for sure John did not turn on light? Could he have turned it in as he slipped in? It's not a detail that would stick out fit me if I was looking for a missing child. Kwim?

Yes, Fleet was sure: John didn't turn the light! Please keep in mind that FW was the best Ramseys friend for many years before this morning. FW was the one and only one person among all these friend who arrived early in morning, who upon arriving start yelling, calling JonBenet name, searching house up and down, including basement. Why? Because he has daughter at almost the same age as JB (by the way, his daughter was the best JB friend also) and once before, his daughter was missing and he was worry, searching for her and founded her hiding in the basement....so, he was very much concern while searching for JB.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Thank you. I need to ponder a little bit. I appreciate the info. I'm trying to find time to read the case history.

 

[steff13]

Fleet says for sure John did not turn on light? Could he have turned it in as he slipped in? It's not a detail that would stick out fit me if I was looking for a missing child. Kwim?

I can't speak to that; I've never been in a position to be looking for a missing child, let alone one that was found deceased, so I don't know what details would stand out.

But, Fleet White did indeed say that John did not turn on the light.

 

[midwest mama]

Is that according to fleet whites account?

Your question jogged me. Did you mean that according to Fleet White's account of his first look through the basement, when he reported he opened the wine cellar door, looked in, but did not see anything?

Just as we consider the statements made everyone else as to their actions prior to police involvement, or not being in the company of a credible witness, shouldn't Fleet's "account" of his actions also be considered possibly tainted.

What if he really did NOT open that door? Or, he DID see the body in the room, but colluded with John from then on? Would that explain why he has done everything he's done up to now with regard to the R's? If he's under complete management of the RST, they could have something on him that would ruin him if he goes all out and talks. If he doesn't talk, there would be too much explaining that would have to be done by the RST if he shows up dead somewhere.

It would have only taken a few seconds for a statement like this from JR to Fleet that morning before he gave his account: You talk, and you're a dead man, accompanied by one of those same "looks" that shook Arndt. And, there was no other corroborating witness with them when they went to the basement together just before JR brought up JB. That whole scenario could have been bogus. Fleet may have been protecting himself and his family from the moment he made his first round through the house in the early morning? :moo:

 

[OpenMind4U]

Your question jogged me. Did you mean that according to Fleet White's account of his first look through the basement, when he reported he opened the wine cellar door, looked in, but did not see anything?

Just as we consider the statements made everyone else as to their actions prior to police involvement, or not being in the company of a credible witness, shouldn't Fleet's "account" of his actions also be considered possibly tainted.

What if he really did NOT open that door? Or, he DID see the body in the room, but colluded with John from then on? Would that explain why he has done everything he's done up to now with regard to the R's? If he's under complete management of the RST, they could have something on him that would ruin him if he goes all out and talks. If he doesn't talk, there would be too much explaining that would have to be done by the RST if he shows up dead somewhere.

It would have only taken a few seconds for a statement like this from JR to Fleet that morning before he gave his account: You talk, and you're a dead man, accompanied by one of those same "looks" that shook Arndt. And, there was no other corroborating witness with them when they went to the basement together just before JR brought up JB. That whole scenario could have been bogus. Fleet may have been protecting himself and his family from the moment he made his first round through the house in the early morning? :moo:

O dear MM,

Please-please, don't go there! Fleet White has suffered enough under Ramsey's bus! Fleet White is absolutely innocent. More so, he's the only one among all Ramsey's so called friends who fought for JonBenet justice without kissing Ramsey's s! He was the only one who tried to convince Ramseys to do the right thing, to cooperate with BPD! Fleet White was the only one friend who wasn't afraid to go in 'war' against RST (read his letter to the Boulder Government in regards of GJ) . So, please, let's not put any shadows on Fleet White!!!!

jmo

 

[dodie20]

Your question jogged me. Did you mean that according to Fleet White's account of his first look through the basement, when he reported he opened the wine cellar door, looked in, but did not see anything?

Just as we consider the statements made everyone else as to their actions prior to police involvement, or not being in the company of a credible witness, shouldn't Fleet's "account" of his actions also be considered possibly tainted.

What if he really did NOT open that door? Or, he DID see the body in the room, but colluded with John from then on? Would that explain why he has done everything he's done up to now with regard to the R's? If he's under complete management of the RST, they could have something on him that would ruin him if he goes all out and talks. If he doesn't talk, there would be too much explaining that would have to be done by the RST if he shows up dead somewhere.

It would have only taken a few seconds for a statement like this from JR to Fleet that morning before he gave his account: You talk, and you're a dead man, accompanied by one of those same "looks" that shook Arndt. And, there was no other corroborating witness with them when they went to the basement together just before JR brought up JB. That whole scenario could have been bogus. Fleet may have been protecting himself and his family from the moment he made his first round through the house in the early morning? :moo:

I understand you wanting to explore all possibilities, but IMO, FW was tricked by the Rs into this situation. They called him for help and being a real man, he searched the house. Not his fault that he half-way fell into a trap. As far as JR threatening him? I doubt it very seriously. The Rs, especially JR, (and the last I read, he still is), had no problem throwing suspicion on FW. If JR had a single thing on FW, I have no doubt that he would have already shouted it from the rooftops. IMO, JR has been so relentless towards FW because of jealousy...FW is the man JR can never be. IMO, from what I've read, (and I'll admit it's not much), it looks like FW did everything in his power to help bring justice for JonBenet. IMO, he doesn't know what happened, so it's not like he can call a news conference and tell the story of who did what... no bombshells, just what he saw, (assaulted with, IMO), when JR "found" JonBenet. He might have an observational insight regarding that morning and of his party the night before, but If he does, I'm sure he shared the information with LE. moo

 

[midwest mama]

O dear MM,

Please-please, don't go there! Fleet White has suffered enough under Ramsey's bus! Fleet White is absolutely innocent. More so, he's the only one among all Ramsey's so called friends who fought for JonBenet justice without kissing Ramsey's s! He was the only one who tried to convince Ramseys to do the right thing, to cooperate with BPD! Fleet White was the only one friend who wasn't afraid to go in 'war' against RST (read his letter to the Boulder Government in regards of GJ) . So, please, let's not put any shadows on Fleet White!!!!

jmo

OM - I had no intention of casting any shadows on Fleet White as to him being involved in ANYTHING relating to killing JB. I apologize to any who may have read my post and interpreted it the same way as OM4U.

I just wondered if Fleet did check the WC, thought he saw something in the dark that looked funny, came up to discuss it with JR, and when JR realized he might know something, convinced him otherwise. You see, I think that JR was still hoping at that time (early in the morning) that he would have a chance to dump JB's body after the police finally left that morning. I don't think JR planned for them to stick around - thought they'd be off searching, leave once the call didn't come in, and then go away and wait for the next morning (the 27th) for the call according to the ransom note. He didn't plan on Arndt sticking around either, so he'd still have time to get rid of the body.

If Fleet had seen the whiteness of the blanket in the dark but no other outlines, JR could have convinced him it was just a pile of coverings left from the Christmas trees or ornaments or something like that. Granted, John may not have had to make actual death threats, so I will withdraw my comment about that, but he might have secured Fleet's help by discounting what Fleet thought he saw, and telling him to keep quiet, so the cops could concentrate on the kidnapping. Now, to me this explains why he would have been so unstrung when John actually did "find" JB, coming up and being unable to make the 911 call after all, then going back to the basement to recheck to see if what he saw the first time ended up being that blanket on JB, etc. He would have realized that John had duped him on purpose and knew the body was there all the time.

To me, it also explains why he went and had a confrontation with JR about working with police, making statements that he "would have to think about protecting himself", etc. Fleet told officers he'd checked the WC and had seen nothing, remember? If he HAD talked it over with JR and JR poo-pooed the contents of the WC into being just "old coverings", and he thought it best to err on the side of his friend, FW might have decided to simply tell police he didn't see anything unusual in the WC. Maybe he thought police would think he was in tandem with trying to hide the body, when it really was just his innocent allegiance to his friend that led him to make that statement to police.

Then, after the whole thing played out, and FW came to realize what he must have seen, and tried to get JR to come clean with what he might have thought was an accident the R's were trying to cover up, Fleet became even more driven. I think FW had an inkling about the previous molesting that was going on with JB. Remember the party on the 23rd, when he was the one who took the rap for making the 911 call by mistake. My thought was that somehow he found out about the kids "playing doctor" too rough with JB, and he and Susan "fixed" that for the R's. I think FW wanted the R's to disclose what he thought was the truth, and when JR went into complete damage control mode, Fleet began to suspect John and/or Patsy had more complicity than he could have ever imagined. And that's when Fleet started going bananas to get them investigated.

So, OM, what I meant was that Fleet also became a victim of this crime. He thought he was simply helping out his friend, only to quickly realize what horrible reality had happened in that house on 15th St.. Once JR realized Fleet might have been able to damage the Ramsey plan, he found a way to permanently crush him coming forward. And I think that is why Fleet has not actually cooperated fully through disclosures to LE, but instead has seemed so adamant to do just enough to encourage investigation and suspicion of the R's.

You are right, Fleet has been horribly mistreated by the RST, and is yet another casualty of this crime. :moo:

 

[DeeDee249]

I had read that JR saw JB before he turned on the light, but he DID turn on the light. FW couldn't find the light switch on his first trip to the basement beaucause it was in an odd place- on an opposite wall and lower on the wall than usual for a light switch.
I also think I read that when police did their test of the light that shone from the area outside the wine cellar into the dark wine cellar with the white blanket on the floor that they determined that you COULD see the blanket (and as follows, JB's body wrapped in it) IF it had been there when FW looked in that morning. In other words, FW should have been able to see her, even without turning on the light, if she was there- because there was enough light shining in from the area he was standing in. If you look at the floor plan for the wine cellar, it is "L" shaped. As you stand in the doorway, to see into the room you actually have to step inside the room and look to the left. FW did not do this, he simply stood in the doorway.
I have always felt that the single livor pattern on JB, as well as the position she was fixed in by rigor mortis, indicate she was placed on her back in the position she was found in within 10-15 minutes of death- or else we would KNOW- there would be a second livor pattern. I STILL believe this. However, the ONE possibility for her to have been moved is if she were further back into the wine cellar 'around the corner" from that doorway. (the long part of the L-shape). She could have been exactly as she was found- lying on her back on the white blanket, head cocked to the right, legs out straight, arms bent at the elbows, and up in front of her head. All JR would have had to do is pull her along the floor to the position closer to the doorway- where she was when JR and FW "found" her. I believe JR did this during the 2 hours he was "missing" from Arndt's sight. Not that it took him 2 hours to do that, but because no one had yet seen the body, we don't know whether he did anything else. I doubt he did any redressing- manipulating her body at that time of the morning (10AM- 12 Noon) would have broken rigor. Once broken, it will not re-form. And she was in FULL rigor at 1PM when she was brought up. There is simply no other way she could have been moved, and remember, the wine cellar was the only place NOT looked into that day (until JR & FW found her).

 

[OpenMind4U]

I had read that JR saw JB before he turned on the light, but he DID turn on the light. FW couldn't find the light switch on his first trip to the basement beaucause it was in an odd place- on an opposite wall and lower on the wall than usual for a light switch.
I also think I read that when police did their test of the light that shone from the area outside the wine cellar into the dark wine cellar with the white blanket on the floor that they determined that you COULD see the blanket (and as follows, JB's body wrapped in it) IF it had been there when FW looked in that morning. In other words, FW should have been able to see her, even without turning on the light, if she was there- because there was enough light shining in from the area he was standing in. If you look at the floor plan for the wine cellar, it is "L" shaped. As you stand in the doorway, to see into the room you actually have to step inside the room and look to the left. FW did not do this, he simply stood in the doorway.
I have always felt that the single livor pattern on JB, as well as the position she was fixed in by rigor mortis, indicate she was placed on her back in the position she was found in within 10-15 minutes of death- or else we would KNOW- there would be a second livor pattern. I STILL believe this. However, the ONE possibility for her to have been moved is if she were further back into the wine cellar 'around the corner" from that doorway. (the long part of the L-shape). She could have been exactly as she was found- lying on her back on the white blanket, head cocked to the right, legs out straight, arms bent at the elbows, and up in front of her head. All JR would have had to do is pull her along the floor to the position closer to the doorway- where she was when JR and FW "found" her. I believe JR did this during the 2 hours he was "missing" from Arndt's sight. Not that it took him 2 hours to do that, but because no one had yet seen the body, we don't know whether he did anything else. I doubt he did any redressing- manipulating her body at that time of the morning (10AM- 12 Noon) would have broken rigor. Once broken, it will not re-form. And she was in FULL rigor at 1PM when she was brought up. There is simply no other way she could have been moved, and remember, the wine cellar was the only place NOT looked into that day (until JR & FW found her).

DD, you're absolutely correct on BBM. To see the blanket on the floor WITHOUT turning light - someone need to STEP INSIDE into WC.

- FW didn't step inside and he didn't turned the light;
- according to FW testimony, as soon as JR opened WC door, he starts screaming. JR didn't step inside and he didn't turned the light. Therefore, it raised FW concern. According to FW account, JR did exectly what FW did 6 hours earlier. Except, FW didn't find JB, JR did!;
- test performed by BPD (which I referenced in my prior post) was to proof that FW was saying the truth. They did exectly what FW did and saw nothing! Yes, without STEPPING INSIDE - you'll see nothing.

BPD has spended time (not enough, IMO!) questioning JR on this subject. From what I read in PMPT, ST, Police Files and in Kolar's book - JR's 'finding' JB using the same 'search' pattern as FW was using - raised 'red flag' among many investigators.

jmo

 

[cynic]

DD, you're absolutely correct on BBM. To see the blanket on the floor WITHOUT turning light - someone need to STEP INSIDE into WC.

Hey OM4U, have a look at this thread:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129344"]The Wine Cellar - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[OpenMind4U]

Hey OM4U, have a look at this thread:
The Wine Cellar - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thank you cynic! Exectly what I thought! Great pictures to proof the point: without getting inside AND without light = you see NOTHING!!!!!

In addition, interesting contradicting accounts by JR and PR in regards to wooden latch...unbelievable how they got FREE! Only in Boulder!

 

[UKGuy]

OM - I had no intention of casting any shadows on Fleet White as to him being involved in ANYTHING relating to killing JB. I apologize to any who may have read my post and interpreted it the same way as OM4U.

I just wondered if Fleet did check the WC, thought he saw something in the dark that looked funny, came up to discuss it with JR, and when JR realized he might know something, convinced him otherwise. You see, I think that JR was still hoping at that time (early in the morning) that he would have a chance to dump JB's body after the police finally left that morning. I don't think JR planned for them to stick around - thought they'd be off searching, leave once the call didn't come in, and then go away and wait for the next morning (the 27th) for the call according to the ransom note. He didn't plan on Arndt sticking around either, so he'd still have time to get rid of the body.

If Fleet had seen the whiteness of the blanket in the dark but no other outlines, JR could have convinced him it was just a pile of coverings left from the Christmas trees or ornaments or something like that. Granted, John may not have had to make actual death threats, so I will withdraw my comment about that, but he might have secured Fleet's help by discounting what Fleet thought he saw, and telling him to keep quiet, so the cops could concentrate on the kidnapping. Now, to me this explains why he would have been so unstrung when John actually did "find" JB, coming up and being unable to make the 911 call after all, then going back to the basement to recheck to see if what he saw the first time ended up being that blanket on JB, etc. He would have realized that John had duped him on purpose and knew the body was there all the time.

To me, it also explains why he went and had a confrontation with JR about working with police, making statements that he "would have to think about protecting himself", etc. Fleet told officers he'd checked the WC and had seen nothing, remember? If he HAD talked it over with JR and JR poo-pooed the contents of the WC into being just "old coverings", and he thought it best to err on the side of his friend, FW might have decided to simply tell police he didn't see anything unusual in the WC. Maybe he thought police would think he was in tandem with trying to hide the body, when it really was just his innocent allegiance to his friend that led him to make that statement to police.

Then, after the whole thing played out, and FW came to realize what he must have seen, and tried to get JR to come clean with what he might have thought was an accident the R's were trying to cover up, Fleet became even more driven. I think FW had an inkling about the previous molesting that was going on with JB. Remember the party on the 23rd, when he was the one who took the rap for making the 911 call by mistake. My thought was that somehow he found out about the kids "playing doctor" too rough with JB, and he and Susan "fixed" that for the R's. I think FW wanted the R's to disclose what he thought was the truth, and when JR went into complete damage control mode, Fleet began to suspect John and/or Patsy had more complicity than he could have ever imagined. And that's when Fleet started going bananas to get them investigated.

So, OM, what I meant was that Fleet also became a victim of this crime. He thought he was simply helping out his friend, only to quickly realize what horrible reality had happened in that house on 15th St.. Once JR realized Fleet might have been able to damage the Ramsey plan, he found a way to permanently crush him coming forward. And I think that is why Fleet has not actually cooperated fully through disclosures to LE, but instead has seemed so adamant to do just enough to encourage investigation and suspicion of the R's.

You are right, Fleet has been horribly mistreated by the RST, and is yet another casualty of this crime. :moo:

midwest mama,

So, OM, what I meant was that Fleet also became a victim of this crime. He thought he was simply helping out his friend, only to quickly realize what horrible reality had happened in that house on 15th St.. Once JR realized Fleet might have been able to damage the Ramsey plan, he found a way to permanently crush him coming forward.

This is my thinking also. FW probably returned to the wine-cellar because he could not believe what had just taken place. i.e. he looked earlier and saw nothing, JR looked and immediately saw JonBenet!

Remember the party on the 23rd, when he was the one who took the rap for making the 911 call by mistake.

Sure and what was all that about, a man of his means using a friends phone to access important medication, duh?

JonBenet's chronic abuse has been dated back to the 23rd Dec, not proof by any means but highly coincidental.

So firstly we have Susan Stine answering the door with some explanation, later it is Fleet White who allegedly dialled or misdialled, I forget, but more importantly, why did Fleet White himself not answer the door, after all he is allegedly the responsible party?

I'll say it again. I reckon there is a conspiracy of silence regarding the events of that night. For whatever reason the parents fixed the situation with some ad-hoc explanation. Later after JonBenet's death, various parents stated they had intended to discuss particular issues regarding JonBenet's behaviour with Patsy. The RST morphed that into Patsy too enthusiastically promoting JonBenet as a pageant participant.

None of those parents were concerned about JonBenet participating in pageants. Why should they care at all?

It could be that Fleet White colluded with the Ramsey's on the night of 12/23? I doubt this would prevent him from stating his case, but who knows, there might be more we are not aware of? I think there is.

I think FW wanted the R's to disclose what he thought was the truth, and when JR went into complete damage control mode, Fleet began to suspect John and/or Patsy had more complicity than he could have ever imagined.

ITA 100%. Fleet White, minimum, would question how John Ramsey, he of very bad eyesight, so bad he requires an airplane pilot, could see JonBenet, when he could not earlier that day?

If events of 12/23 are as I suspect, then it will be for this reason that Fleet White is maintaining his silence. He will have taken legal advice and probably been told, that it is highly relevant to any future prosecution.

Somebody should file a FOI for the GJ evidence so we know the basis of their decision.


.

 

[midwest mama]

Thank you Cynic and UK Guy! Just one comment, which is my opinion, but in the WC photos where the door is cracked open and the light is shining in from the hall, I think I see the light switch box there on the right hand wall, with an exposed power cable coming down from it? Agree that the darkness inside would mask nearly any explicit shape, especially without stepping inside. But I wonder why, with that switch box being somewhat illuminated as it is in the photo, Fleet said he couldn't find it? I don't know, since his testimony cannot be validated by another source one way or another, I think it's possible he could have looked inside, but was misled to believe what he saw had nothing to do with being JB.

Here's a thought: It was reported there were two blankets in the WC (another one besides the white one on JB). DeeDee has presented the possibility that JB could have been moved from a corner into the place where she was found without disturbing the livor pattern. Is it possible that is what happened? Maybe JB's body was far into the corner with the other blanket over her as an additional 'masking' of her being wrapped up. The fiber reports listed other fibers, etc. being found on the blanket, which might be some of the redacted info. So, if FW took a step into the doorway, flipped the switch, saw only the lump of blankets in the corner, thinking they had no possibility of being JB. He was looking around, calling out her name, as if he expected to see a LIVE JB, just as he had found his own daughter. That corner lump would not have looked like what he was expecting to find, and when he went back up, might have mentioned it to JR, only to have JR totally discount the corner lump as being old tree coverings?

I might be reaching, and the whole thing did happen without FW turning on the switch and actually looking, just as he testified. But with that switch box being gently illuminated in the photos Cynic posted (if that's the right switch box), it leaves question in my mind. And, no matter what, I do wonder about that second blanket found being used as an overlay of JB if she was stashed in the corner and later dragged out for JR to 'find'.

 

[OpenMind4U]

MM, the 4th picture on cynic post shows clearly that when person is standing BY THE ENTRANCE his shadow overlays the visiability of switchbox. In addition, like it was stated by ST, the switch was in unusual place, way from the standard code for placement of any electrical light switch. Looks to me that this switchbox was the temperarly placement and electrician never finished his work. So, I have no doubts that FW was saying the truth and he did everything he could in these circumstances.

In regards of the blanket, it's still bothering me the situation with JAR's duvet. It was stated that fibers from duvet was found on JB. Just recently, I brought this subject on with suggestion that JB could possibly be covered with/IN this duvet first... but DeeDee said that she never heard about these fibers. And who knows better all FACTS than her?

So, if duvet fibers were REALLY founded on JB then it opens much bigger can of warms. Who and when takes duvet from WC and put it in suitcase? I kind of know the answers...but, want to make sure that FACTS are true before making any speculations.

Something else, while talking about CANS. Depends on the cans size and their quantity in WC, they can very well be used to abstruct the view of the body. I simply don't believe that JR 'found' JB at 1:00pm. All FACTS point to him lying! Even without FW's prior search! It would be plenty enough to have FW testimony on HOW JR founds the body without getting inside and without turning the light.

jmo

 

[midwest mama]

MM, the 4th picture on cynic post shows clearly that when person is standing BY THE ENTRANCE his shadow overlays the visiability of switchbox. In addition, like it was stated by ST, the switch was in unusual place, way from the standard code for placement of any electrical light switch. Looks to me that this switchbox was the temperarly placement and electrician never finished his work. So, I have no doubts that FW was saying the truth and he did everything he could in these circumstances.

In regards of the blanket, it's still bothering me the situation with JAR's duvet. It was stated that fibers from duvet was found on JB. Just recently, I brought this subject on with suggestion that JB could possibly be covered with/IN this duvet first... but DeeDee said that she never heard about these fibers. And who knows better all FACTS than her?

So, if duvet fibers were REALLY founded on JB then it opens much bigger can of warms. Who and when takes duvet from WC and put it in suitcase? I kind of know the answers...but, want to make sure that FACTS are true before making any speculations.

Something else, while talking about CANS. Depends on the cans size and their quantity in WC, they can very well be used to abstruct the view of the body. I simply don't believe that JR 'found' JB at 1:00pm. All FACTS point to him lying! Even without FW's prior search! It would be plenty enough to have FW testimony on HOW JR founds the body without getting inside and without turning the light.

jmo

Good post - helps me to remember we must deal with the known public statments and facts. My sleuthing mind goes Columbo on me and helps me speculate all sorts of things at times.

BBM above: JR stated he moved the suitcase to the basement.

OM, there's a bit of Columbo in you too, since the cans might have been stacked behind the body? I admit to not remembering if photos depicted which position the cans might have been in. But thanks for reminding me they were there. After looking at the photos in Cynics post, I spaced them off.

Of course if the cans were stacked in front of the body or around it, and that other blanket was over it as well, maybe JB wouldn't have had to be dragged out of the corner to be 'found'. JR could have simply moved the cans to whatever location, lifted off the other blanket, and there she was - in position to be 'found'. Good example of how seeing so many bits of things in this case can scramble thinking at times. :juggle:

Anyway, I do agree that JR already knew her body was in the WC - very elementary speculation, I fear.

 

[UKGuy]

MM, the 4th picture on cynic post shows clearly that when person is standing BY THE ENTRANCE his shadow overlays the visiability of switchbox. In addition, like it was stated by ST, the switch was in unusual place, way from the standard code for placement of any electrical light switch. Looks to me that this switchbox was the temperarly placement and electrician never finished his work. So, I have no doubts that FW was saying the truth and he did everything he could in these circumstances.

In regards of the blanket, it's still bothering me the situation with JAR's duvet. It was stated that fibers from duvet was found on JB. Just recently, I brought this subject on with suggestion that JB could possibly be covered with/IN this duvet first... but DeeDee said that she never heard about these fibers. And who knows better all FACTS than her?

So, if duvet fibers were REALLY founded on JB then it opens much bigger can of warms. Who and when takes duvet from WC and put it in suitcase? I kind of know the answers...but, want to make sure that FACTS are true before making any speculations.

Something else, while talking about CANS. Depends on the cans size and their quantity in WC, they can very well be used to abstruct the view of the body. I simply don't believe that JR 'found' JB at 1:00pm. All FACTS point to him lying! Even without FW's prior search! It would be plenty enough to have FW testimony on HOW JR founds the body without getting inside and without turning the light.

jmo

OpenMind4U,
This is the first I've heard about those duvet fibers, confirm them and you have a case.

Even still, JR vanishing around the ransom deadline appears highly suspicious, you might think he would want to be next to a phone?

JR either moved JonBenet from one point in the wine-cellar to another, or as some theories suggest, moved JonBenet from another location in the basement. Due to livor-mortis considerations the latter might not be very realistic, but who knows, as JonBenet would have been dead nearly 12 hours come midday.

Considering FW vs JR's perception. The obvious answer is JR did not need to look as he knew in advance JonBenet's precise location.

 

[midwest mama]

OpenMind4U,
This is the first I've heard about those duvet fibers, confirm them and you have a case.

Even still, JR vanishing around the ransom deadline appears highly suspicious, you might think he would want to be next to a phone?

JR either moved JonBenet from one point in the wine-cellar to another, or as some theories suggest, moved JonBenet from another location in the basement. Due to livor-mortis considerations the latter might not be very realistic, but who knows, as JonBenet would have been dead nearly 12 hours come midday.

Considering FW vs JR's perception. The obvious answer is JR did not need to look as he knew in advance JonBenet's precise location.

UKGuy:

Steve Thomas Deposition (Atlanta, Georgia)
Wolf vs Ramsey Civil Action File No. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)
(Fiber Discussion)

8 A. Whether artifact or evidence, yeah,
9 there were a number of hair and fiber pieces
10 in this case that I know they, Trujillo and
11 CBI, were trying to source.
12 Q. And as of August of '98 had not
13 been able to do so, true?
14 A. That's my understanding.
15 Q. And CBI had at one point come up
16 with a conclusion that there was a
17 consistency between fibers found on a blanket
18 in the suitcase that matched fibers on
19 JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is
20 that the right term?
21 A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth
22 refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever
23 offer a report or an explanation concerning
24 that.
25 Q. But the FBI disagreed with the

247
1 CBI, didn't they?
2 A. On what point?
3 Q. On the question of whether there
4 were fibers inside materials found in the
5 suitcase found under the window in the
6 basement consistent with fibers found on
7 JonBenet?
8 A. No, I'm aware of Smit and DeMuth's
9 position or stating this consistency of these
10 fibers, but I'm not aware of a disagreement
11 between the FBI and that finding.



Does this help?

 

[redheadedgal]

completely OT: a funny


i've been reading this forum for so long now and so often that the other day i clicked on a job site, read the title across the top and was like "huh, jonbenet? what does jonbenet have to do with my job search?"



webpage title: JobNet



:floorlaugh:

 

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,
This is the first I've heard about those duvet fibers, confirm them and you have a case.

Even still, JR vanishing around the ransom deadline appears highly suspicious, you might think he would want to be next to a phone?

JR either moved JonBenet from one point in the wine-cellar to another, or as some theories suggest, moved JonBenet from another location in the basement. Due to livor-mortis considerations the latter might not be very realistic, but who knows, as JonBenet would have been dead nearly 12 hours come midday.

Considering FW vs JR's perception. The obvious answer is JR did not need to look as he knew in advance JonBenet's precise location.

UKGuy,

As have been asked by you, here is 'confirmation' in addition to MM post above (thank you MM for help!). I don't know how reliable it is but....

The suitcase contained a pillow sham, duvet and Dr. Seuss book. These items belonged to defendants, but they have indicated that the items were not normally stored in the suitcase. (SMF P 146; PSMF P 146.) A lab report indicated that fibers from the sham and duvet were found on the shirt that JonBenet was wearing when she was found in the wine cellar. (SMF P 147; PSMF P 147.)" (Carnes 2003:Note 32).

If above is the FACT than we have problem properly understanding the true meaning of duvet INSIDE of suitcase.

jmo

 

[midwest mama]

UKGuy,

As have been asked by you, here is 'confirmation' in addition to MM post above (thank you MM for help!). I don't know how reliable it is but....

If above is the FACT than we have problem properly understanding the true meaning of duvet INSIDE of suitcase.

jmo

From your reference, OM: These items belonged to defendants, but they have indicated that the items were not normally stored in the suitcase.

A couple of thoughts, with the duvet found inside the suitcase. It could have been put in there, then JB placed inside, and if it was found she wouldn't fit properly (though I have seen a sketch demonstration some where showing she might have), she was taken back out, but the duvet left there.

Or, she could have been wrapped in the duvet and carried from wherever she was felled to whatever the next step was in the crime, and then the duvet stuffed into the suitcase in an attempt to hide it.

Or it could have been in use wherever the molestation that occurred that night happened, or even during a former molestation, and was put into the suitcase to keep it out of sight. The lab analysis thought there was molestation approximately 72 hours prior to her death, as well as previous chronic molestation.

The duvet connects to the overall scenario in one way or the other, IMHO