Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[DIRK SCHILLER]

Storage Room Next to Laundry

Open Window. An open window with chair beneath was located in the storage room adjacent to the laundry and train room photo. As with many photos in this case, it is uncertain when this was taken and whether the window was actually open and the chair underneath it on the morning of 12/26/96.

http://www.acandyrose.com/window-basement1.jpg

 

[midwest mama]

As I understand it, this window led to an interior crawl space, so could not have afforded entry to an intruder.

Agree - can't bring up the exact quote, but remember reading it somewhere.

So, could this piece of evidence taken from the house come from THAT crawlspace, and not the one off the wine cellar?

Misc. Canvas bag in crawlspace 1 37 KKY

Open window, with chair below could mean someone tried to stash that bag as deep as they could into the space.

Next question, was the bag empty or did it contain something? If empty, could the interior have
been tested for fibers that might have been tied to the crime scene, i.e. cord, tape, blue cotton, brown cotton, etc??

 

[txsvicki]

Do we know if any other unlocked windows in any of the basement rooms were found by police? The suitcase was supposedly placed under the window during the exit and not used for entering. It would be inreresting to know if there was a space anywhere in that mess that the suitcase may have been pulled out of and how much dust was on it. I don't believe Linda could really know what all was down there or if the window may have been cracked because there was no way to vacuum that room due to stuff all over the floor.

 

[midwest mama]

If you haven't looked at this video recently, now might be a good time.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WomIOTN9UiQ&feature=related"]March 27, 2000 - YouTube[/ame]

Watch Patsy at time mark 4:15, and then thru her talking about reading the ransom note. Her hands mimic her activity of coming down the stair, and then also 'pat' in indication that there was a note laying there that she saw and scanned. Those hand motions seem to add to the authenticity of her statement. Have to admit her acting skills were more than extraordinary, if that is what she was doing.

Now, watch John at the 5:58 mark where he SAID he handed the police officer the note. If that is true, then it would not have been on the floor where Officer French said he was led to see the note by John Ramsey. I think we've brought out this lie before.

But, here's the comment, at the 6:43 mark, that takes the cake -- he says he found her LATER THAT MORNING. :what: But, hasn't it been well documented that it was after 1:00 pm when JR brought her up from the basement??

S. Long reported to Steve Thomas that JR had said he found JB around 11 am. Which was during the time frame he was absent from Det. Arndt's accountability. And also during the time he said he went back down to check for an intruder entry point, and found the train room window open, closed and latched it.

All I can say is, if I had innocently gone down in my basement, thinking my daughter had been kidnapped, to look for some signs of an intruder, and I would have then 'found' my daughter, I would have been screaming bloody murder for someone to come, I don't care what time of day it was. Knowing I had not done it, and could not believe my husband or son had done it, I would have then been sure an unknown intruder did it, and would have wanted to give as much assistance to the police that I could.

I wonder if this LATE MORNING TIME, now professed by John himself to two credible sources, was etched in his mind well enough to ' Freudian slip' out, because that is when he made the final check on JB and determined that everything was in place for her to be found by police. As time passed by, and he became more agitated and distressed, his sense of real time just did not register. Did the last pictures he had in his mind of seeing his little angel, as he later called her, just mess up his mind? And when he finally had an opportunity to find her in the company of a witness himself, is that what he did - to end his momentary remorseful mental misery and the drama of waiting? :moo:

 

[Chrishope]

Do we know if any other unlocked windows in any of the basement rooms were found by police? The suitcase was supposedly placed under the window during the exit and not used for entering. It would be inreresting to know if there was a space anywhere in that mess that the suitcase may have been pulled out of and how much dust was on it. I don't believe Linda could really know what all was down there or if the window may have been cracked because there was no way to vacuum that room due to stuff all over the floor.

We know that the police report -which presumably was written later that day, though exactly when I'm not sure- said there were no signs of forced entry.

LHP went down there earlier in Dec., along with her husband and some others to remove Christmas trees from the WC. She'd also be down there from time to time doing laundry. And she was down there the 23rd taking the paint tote to the basement. Certainly if the window had been broken during the summer LHP would have known about it. She says she wasn't aware of a broken window.

 

[Bonnette]

The main thing that stands out for me in the video clip is that neither of them can remember what happened the morning they "found" the note, because - as John says - it had been two years and they'd been over it a hundred times. You'd think practice would have made perfect.

 

[dodie20]

If you haven't looked at this video recently, now might be a good time.

March 27, 2000 - YouTube

Watch Patsy at time mark 4:15, and then thru her talking about reading the ransom note. Her hands mimic her activity of coming down the stair, and then also 'pat' in indication that there was a note laying there that she saw and scanned. Those hand motions seem to add to the authenticity of her statement. Have to admit her acting skills were more than extraordinary, if that is what she was doing.

Now, watch John at the 5:58 mark where he SAID he handed the police officer the note. If that is true, then it would not have been on the floor where Officer French said he was led to see the note by John Ramsey. I think we've brought out this lie before.

But, here's the comment, at the 6:43 mark, that takes the cake -- he says he found her LATER THAT MORNING. :what: But, hasn't it been well documented that it was after 1:00 pm when JR brought her up from the basement??

S. Long reported to Steve Thomas that JR had said he found JB around 11 am. Which was during the time frame he was absent from Det. Arndt's accountability. And also during the time he said he went back down to check for an intruder entry point, and found the train room window open, closed and latched it.

All I can say is, if I had innocently gone down in my basement, thinking my daughter had been kidnapped, to look for some signs of an intruder, and I would have then 'found' my daughter, I would have been screaming bloody murder for someone to come, I don't care what time of day it was. Knowing I had not done it, and could not believe my husband or son had done it, I would have then been sure an unknown intruder did it, and would have wanted to give as much assistance to the police that I could.

I wonder if this LATE MORNING TIME, now professed by John himself to two credible sources, was etched in his mind well enough to ' Freudian slip' out, because that is when he made the final check on JB and determined that everything was in place for her to be found by police. As time passed by, and he became more agitated and distressed, his sense of real time just did not register. Did the last pictures he had in his mind of seeing his little angel, as he later called her, just mess up his mind? And when he finally had an opportunity to find her in the company of a witness himself, is that what he did - to end his momentary remorseful mental misery and the drama of waiting? :moo:

maybe, or, and I think this is a real possibility, he was suspicious so he checked the basement and found JB. Being positive that someone in the house was responsible, he sat on the information. I also think it's possible that during the 1st discovery, he might have unstaged a few things and moved JB to a more obvious location. When LE didn't find her, he might have gotten antsy, so he found her himself. moo

 

[midwest mama]

Do we know if any other unlocked windows in any of the basement rooms were found by police? The suitcase was supposedly placed under the window during the exit and not used for entering. It would be inreresting to know if there was a space anywhere in that mess that the suitcase may have been pulled out of and how much dust was on it. I don't believe Linda could really know what all was down there or if the window may have been cracked because there was no way to vacuum that room due to stuff all over the floor.

tsxvicki - In PMPT, pg 44, when White is in the basement looking for JB, this is the commentary: "It was so cluttered down there -- with boxes stacked everywhere and shelves overflowing with odds and ends -- that he could hardly see any open spaces where she might be."

I take it, that if there were no spaces that he thought would accommodate JB, it might have also been a tight squeeze for a suitcase, or, if the suitcase had been moved from another place in the basement, shouldn't it have left an open space where it would have been sitting?

This is a statement from Lou Smit:
Out of place: John Ramsey said the suitcase was not in that area of the basement before, suggesting that someone moved it there. In addition, if the suitcase had been under the window for a long time, dust and debris would have collected on it. But little was there.

Do these things help?

 

[midwest mama]

maybe, or, and I think this is a real possibility, he was suspicious so he checked the basement and found JB. Being positive that someone in the house was responsible, he sat on the information. I also think it's possible that during the 1st discovery, he might have unstaged a few things and moved JB to a more obvious location. When LE didn't find her, he might have gotten antsy, so he found her himself. moo

Do we agree that John knew there was no intruder? If he was positive that someone in the house, other than himself, killed JB, he would have strictly been covering for Burke as being the killer, since JR himself stated he would not have covered for Patsy.

If he was covering for Burke, he not only had a lot of damage control to do that day, but had to devise very clever means of keeping Burke and all of his activities under wraps for years down the road. The R's were high profile people - they were being watched like hawks by undercover reporters, suspicious friends, etc. etc. If the R's were working to get help for Burke, they became masters at keeping that disguised.

Here's a snip from an interview of the Ramseys by a reporter for the Rocky Mountain News printed on March 19, 2000:

Theories about the Ramseys' guilt tend to cast one of them as the accomplice who is protecting the perpetrator.

``Anybody who's ever had a child, and thinks that, has to have rocks in their heads,'' Patsy said. ``I mean, I love my husband. But I adore, passionately, my children. And if he ever laid a hand on them, I'd knock his block off. People just don't use their common sense.''

``The police asked me that question,'' John said. ``I had to think about it, because I'd never even thought about it. The police said, `Just what if Patsy had done this? Would you turn her in? Would you turn on her?' Of course I would. I would have to.''

Their son, Burke, who was 9 at the time of the killing, has been cleared by authorities. But both Ramseys agree it would be more tempting to cover up for your child than for your spouse.

``The love of a child is unconditional,'' John said. ``So that presents a much bigger dilemma, if you love that child unconditionally, and yet they've done this horrible thing. But if you love that child, you've got to get help for that child. It's a tougher question to think through.''

But, I have a difficult time thinking JR would have gone about 'unstaging' things and moving JB during that time span while he was not on Arndt's radar.

Wouldn't he have been concerned Arndt herself might have missed him and come looking for him, or sent one of their friends to find him? He supposedly went down innocently enough out of suspicion, so I doubt he would have asked anyone to watch to make sure Arndt or anyone else didn't come looking for him. It just doesn't wash very easily with me that he would risk any movements with JB's body that he might be caught in the middle of.

No matter which aspect you believe, JR was in it up to his eyeballs! And all this innocence junk he spews out in his books as he rakes in the bucks just makes me ill. :yuck:

 

[dodie20]

Do we agree that John knew there was no intruder? If he was positive that someone in the house, other than himself, killed JB, he would have strictly been covering for Burke as being the killer, since JR himself stated he would not have covered for Patsy.

If he was covering for Burke, he not only had a lot of damage control to do that day, but had to devise very clever means of keeping Burke and all of his activities under wraps for years down the road. The R's were high profile people - they were being watched like hawks by undercover reporters, suspicious friends, etc. etc. If the R's were working to get help for Burke, they became masters at keeping that disguised.

Here's a snip from an interview of the Ramseys by a reporter for the Rocky Mountain News printed on March 19, 2000:

Theories about the Ramseys' guilt tend to cast one of them as the accomplice who is protecting the perpetrator.

``Anybody who's ever had a child, and thinks that, has to have rocks in their heads,'' Patsy said. ``I mean, I love my husband. But I adore, passionately, my children. And if he ever laid a hand on them, I'd knock his block off. People just don't use their common sense.''

``The police asked me that question,'' John said. ``I had to think about it, because I'd never even thought about it. The police said, `Just what if Patsy had done this? Would you turn her in? Would you turn on her?' Of course I would. I would have to.''

Their son, Burke, who was 9 at the time of the killing, has been cleared by authorities. But both Ramseys agree it would be more tempting to cover up for your child than for your spouse.

``The love of a child is unconditional,'' John said. ``So that presents a much bigger dilemma, if you love that child unconditionally, and yet they've done this horrible thing. But if you love that child, you've got to get help for that child. It's a tougher question to think through.''

But, I have a difficult time thinking JR would have gone about 'unstaging' things and moving JB during that time span while he was not on Arndt's radar.

Wouldn't he have been concerned Arndt herself might have missed him and come looking for him, or sent one of their friends to find him? He supposedly went down innocently enough out of suspicion, so I doubt he would have asked anyone to watch to make sure Arndt or anyone else didn't come looking for him. It just doesn't wash very easily with me that he would risk any movements with JB's body that he might be caught in the middle of.

No matter which aspect you believe, JR was in it up to his eyeballs! And all this innocence junk he spews out in his books as he rakes in the bucks just makes me ill. :yuck:

just curious, because I can't remember. Did Arndt or anybody else say anything about JR's demeanor changing after 11?

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

As I understand it, this window led to an interior crawl space, so could not have afforded entry to an intruder.

thank you!
sorry the point was , was that the chair close to that window where the suitcase was standing? a what distance was the chair from that escape window? and why they took a photograph of a suitcase in the wrong position? If a was a perp, I´d put that suitcase in other position to get to that window and not in that position( on the side) to escape

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

What convinces me is simply that it's hard to believe they lived with a hole in the window for several months. Mice would come in, snow and rain would come in. Mosquitoes. They didn't even try to cover the hole with a piece of cardboard or something. It's just not credible.

Then there is the security issue. It's one thing for a man JR's size and age to try to get through that window well. But a prowler in his teens or early 20's?

Then there are the few pieces of glass. If it were broken in August the glass would be cleaned up -completely.

Then there is LHP, who doesn't remember a broken window. Something I'd expect a housekeeper would notice. Plus if I recall LHP's husband and some others (son in law?) helped take Christmas trees out of the WC and set them up in various rooms. They would have noticed the window, and had to have been asked about it.

It would be nice to have forensic proof of a fresh break, but I don't think we really need it to figure out what happened and what didn't.

would some of you live
as a rich man in
a mansion
with two women in the house
and another child
knowing that a rapist,
kidnapper or thief
could enter through that window?

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

why would JR go to check possible points of entry and exit
exactly to that room where JB was found
where there was no window
or am I wrong?

 

[Bonnette]

just curious, because I can't remember. Did Arndt or anybody else say anything about JR's demeanor changing after 11?

I think she said he got unusually quiet and sat at a table removed from the others, looking at some mail...which is why she assumed he'd gone to the mailbox during his absence.

 

[txsvicki]

I'm not so sure John didn't suspect Patsy. In one of their media interviews (don't remember which one) he was answering questions about a spouse killing a child. He answered as if talking to a spouse " you kill my my child, I don't love you anymore". It may have been the same interview as mentioned above. I wanted to find it to see if Patsy had any sort of facial clues at all as he spoke.

 

[midwest mama]

just curious, because I can't remember. Did Arndt or anybody else say anything about JR's demeanor changing after 11?

This is from Kolar's book, pg 37: "Supervisors and detectives had convened at the Police Department following the passage of the ransom hour, and Arndt found herself to be the sole police officer remaining at the home. She had observed a marked difference in John Ramsey's mood when he re-surfaced at noon. He was anxiously pacing around the house shortly before 1300 hours, and in attempt to kieep his mind occupied, Arndt suggested that he check the house from 'top to bottom' for anything unusual".

I wonder if once all the police officers left to go back to the station, JR became even the more agitated that there would be no officers checking around through the house that might 'find' his daughter? :moo:

 

[midwest mama]

why would JR go to check possible points of entry and exit
exactly to that room where JB was found
where there was no window
or am I wrong?

JR SAID he wanted to go back down to the basement to check for points of entry by an intruder, and stated in several sources that he went in to the Train Room to look around. The Train Room was closer to the bottom of the stairwell than the Wine Cellar was, and it falls into place easily he could claim to have gone into the Train Room as a starting point of his search.

In DOA, published in 2000, JR said "That entry point needs to be looked at...the pane is still broken and the window is open, with a large old Samsonite suitcase sitting under it. Odd, I think. This doesn't look right. This suitcase is not normally kept here.

Then in 2001, during a deposition he gave in a civil trial, he said this:
Questioned as to why he went to the basement, John states: 'I was trying to determine how someone could have gotten into our house.' He had a vague recollection of mentioning the broken window to Detective Arndt, but had explained his earlier summer entry to the house.

FW had told officers about finding the broken window (Kolar book, pg 84) that morning. If JR would have then told Arndt about it again, after his trip down, I think Arndt herself would have at least wanted to inspect that window. :moo: And there was never an account of that.

JB was not found in the Train Room. Her body was in the Wine Cellar.

JR, the owner of the house, one of the few people who even knew the WC room was there, since it was in the farthest corner of his house, only talks about checking out the Train Room, looking for an intruder point of entry, and did so during a time he 'slipped away' from the group upstairs. He never reported checking through any of the other rooms for anything that would be telltale of an intruder. Yet, Arndt noticed his demeanor to be changed when he returned from the basement. Just from looking over a window?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

just curious, because I can't remember. Did Arndt or anybody else say anything about JR's demeanor changing after 11?

There were several post earlier this month on this thread about John before he went missing and after.

I posted this....John was fairly calm, smiling and even joking....until he went missing that morning. After that he was seen sitting at the dining room table alone, his head in his hands and jiggling his foot.

Something made John Ramsey very unsettled after he went missing. What would do that?

Also, I was at Half Price books looking to see if anyone had passed on their copy of James Kolar's book and picked up DOI to look at the photos it had of JonBenet. One was of Burke and JonBenet in the spring of 1996 with Burke and a baseball mitt raised up over his head and JonBenet on a bike next to him. It gave me a better understanding of the differences in height between them. And the possibility of Burke standing behind JonBenet with something in hand and how it was about where something could of landed on her head.

I still am not ready to commit to Pasty or Burke yet. I do think John came in the mix later and from that point on it was to save Burke.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

would some of you live
as a rich man in
a mansion
with two women in the house
and another child
knowing that a rapist,
kidnapper or thief
could enter through that window?

It wasn't a mansion. It was an old house in a affluent neighborhood that Pasty tried to make into one and it still wasn't one.

It might look impressive, but it's really smaller than you think. If anyone wanted in that house to steal or take someone from it than there were many many other places that could of been used to enter and exit on the first and second floors.

John Ramsey had a window (to his left as he stood before that window well and grate) that he could of broke into much easier. It was right next to the door that led out onto the brick patio.

John and Pasty didn't seem to have any fears about strangers coming to call, and they sure didn't like being woke up or put out if their alarm system went off so they left it unarmed.

 

[dodie20]

I'm not so sure John didn't suspect Patsy. In one of their media interviews (don't remember which one) he was answering questions about a spouse killing a child. He answered as if talking to a spouse " you kill my my child, I don't love you anymore". It may have been the same interview as mentioned above. I wanted to find it to see if Patsy had any sort of facial clues at all as he spoke.

what a weird way to word that phrase. IMO, he was talking to PR. What other spouse did he have? I wonder why he didn't say, 'If my spouse killed our child', etc. And saying he wouldn't love her anymore is weird too. I mean, duhh, but what, besides withholding his love, would he do about it? moo