Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

Who do you believe killed JonBenet?

  • Patsy

    Votes: 168 25.0%
  • John

    Votes: 44 6.6%
  • Burke

    Votes: 107 15.9%
  • an unknown intruder

    Votes: 86 12.8%
  • BR (head bash), then JR

    Votes: 4 0.6%
  • BR (head bash); then JR & PR (strangled/coverup)

    Votes: 113 16.8%
  • Knowing all I know, still on the fence.

    Votes: 55 8.2%
  • John, with an 'inside' accomplice

    Votes: 11 1.6%
  • I think John and Patsy caught him and he made her cover up

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • I still have no idea

    Votes: 57 8.5%
  • patsy and john helped cover it up

    Votes: 9 1.3%

  • Total voters
    671
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I remember reading from an observer after JB was reported kidnapped, that the Rs had very little interaction, that they seemed angry with each other, and they seemed more like a couple who were divorcing, than the parents of a kidnapped child. I don't remember if the observer was a part of LE or someone else. I was wondering if this lack of interaction started that day, or if someone at F and PW's party, (the night before), noticed it. Were they already at odds with each other or did they act like a happy couple?

Iirc, according to Thomas's book, it was one of the officers sent to the house early that morning who noticed that John and Patsy were not comforting each other or even staying in the same room together.

Linda Huffman-Pugh, iirc, wrote in the first chapter of her book (which I think is available at Forums For Justice) that she never saw the first sign of love or affection exchanged between John and Patsy the entire time she worked there.

Photos make interesting studies. In seeing photos of the two of them with or without friends or family members, I see signs of phoniness and lack of affection. They come across as smarmy in my opinion
 
I remember reading from an observer after JB was reported kidnapped, that the Rs had very little interaction, that they seemed angry with each other, and they seemed more like a couple who were divorcing, than the parents of a kidnapped child. I don't remember if the observer was a part of LE or someone else. I was wondering if this lack of interaction started that day, or if someone at F and PW's party, (the night before), noticed it. Were they already at odds with each other or did they act like a happy couple?

What do the parents of a kidnapped child look like? My dh and I are happy. Been together 22 years. We love each other. We also get each other. We don't grieve together though. We tend to deal alone and then come together later. We need to deal with our own feelings first. I can not imagine the shock and horror that they must have felt.

I don't decide people guilt or innocent based on reaction. I just have seen to many people who have been through terrible things, react so completely differently.
 
What do the parents of a kidnapped child look like? My dh and I are happy. Been together 22 years. We love each other. We also get each other. We don't grieve together though. We tend to deal alone and then come together later. We need to deal with our own feelings first. I can not imagine the shock and horror that they must have felt.

I don't decide people guilt or innocent based on reaction. I just have seen to many people who have been through terrible things, react so completely differently.

100% agree. However, you said yourself: 'We tend to deal alone and then come together later.'...ALONE. Could you imagine to invite bunch of your neighbors and friends to help you 'DEAL' with your grief???????.....

Of course, nobody should decide guilt or innocents based on this behavior element only.....BUT, unfortunately, there were many-many others 'red flags' of Ramseys behavior.....

jmo
 
But the thing is that I am not unfamiliar with it. I see it all and still see an intruder. I think some of the evidence is definitely up to interpretation.

It is your opinion, that there is no intruder, It is my my opinion that it was an intruder. I believe that completely. Not just with blind faith or trust in a report, But reading the facts and interpretations of facts or evidence it still sits with me that there was someone other than the family that committed this crime.

I've looked at the other side and it just does not sit well with my soul.

Pirplegrl, thank you. You are living, breathing, posting proof that one can hold an opinion that is in the minority and not be hostile or defensive. You are polite, ask good questions and you made a particular statement that really grabs my heart: "I think some of the evidence is definitely up to interpretation."

I totally get this point of view. When I look back at things that I study in history, I have to look at the available evidence. I am looking at the same other evidence that other historians are using, and sometimes we simply do not agree. Oh, I'm not talking about people like Irving or Atweil or other self-styled historians who look at evidence and deliberately skew thier interpretation of evidence to fit their particular agenda, but I mean other scholars who may have a premise in mind, but who work within the evidence to go where that takes them, even if it means that the premise they originally had in mind isn't supported. I wrote a paper a few years back for one of my classes about Caligula and his alleged insanity. I looked at the same sources other historians use, and came to a slightly different conclusion (i.e. that Caligula was "crazy like a fox" and showed forethought of malice rather than just ordinary crackers due to the fever he suffered early in his reign.) I also consulted a physician who was interested in the subject and he led me to looking at the widespread prevalance in the use of lead in Roman waterworks and the affect that this could have on the brain, an area a few other historians have covered as well. So compared to many of my classmates, I had a different opinion. Historians also have to judge the reliability of source material itself. We have to look at factors like timing, agenda, background, etc. of the author. A good example is with someone like Suetonius. He was the "Kitty Kelly" of his day-- always good for a salacious story or wild tale. Yet we still have to use him for a source at times. When applicable, I would take the writing of other contemporaries of Suetonius with a bit more weight usually, unlesss for some reason I judge their postion or bias as perhaps not the most reliable for the aspect in question. Sources need to be looked at in context, and evidence as well. Currently I am toying with the idea of taking on the fires of Rome in 69CE as a future topic of research. I have a theory that is quite controversial-- only one or two other historians share my opinion, or aspects of that opinion. I expect to be told I am wrong, frequently and vociferously. But I am willing to give the exploration of my theory a go, and if the further evidence leads me away from what I currentlysuspect, so be it. But maybe it won't-- and like you, my minority view might be the right one.

That said, I appreciate that you put your ideas out there. I get that if something doesn't sit right in your gut, it is worth looking at. I'm not trying to change your mind or anything, I am just pleased that you expressed yourself so well. As I've said elsewhere and others have said-- we don't all have to agree. If done with the grace you have shown, re-examining all theories can add new info, take all of us in directions we may not have considered, or solidify aspects of our theories. Sure I am in the RDI camp, but my take on what happened to JBR is a bit different than what others think. But I still appreciate reading any & all theories to re-examine what I know, and what I think I know. I know I could be wrong, and my theories over the years about JBR have changed. Justice for JBR is my main goal, but I like the side lessons I get in this community: appreciating diversity of opinion, seeing the unflagging efforts of so many and getting inspiration from the tenacity of fine people in the name of justice, seeing that even though there can be disagreement, most people here value what I do: truth & justice.

So thank you again. :)
 
100% agree. However, you said yourself: 'We tend to deal alone and then come together later.'...ALONE. Could you imagine to invite bunch of your neighbors and friends to help you 'DEAL' with your grief???????.....

Of course, nobody should decide guilt or innocents based on this behavior element only.....BUT, unfortunately, there were many-many others 'red flags' of Ramseys behavior.....

jmo

Yes. Because I can relate differently to other people than my husband. I don't know how to explain it, But when I am falling apart, I tend to talk to my mom or my aunt. Cry on their shoulder. Dh deals with things completely differently than I do but I bet he would want my dad or our Pastor. We would almost not want to be together because It might break us to wrap ourselves in the reality of it. Now I don't know the Ramseys. I am just saying that how people react is just not a good indicator of much. We are all so very different and react so differently. How can one ever know how they would react to such a thing. They did not divorce in the end. Where many many couples who go through something tragic do.
 
Good post, SunVenus! Good luck with your research!!!!....and thank you!

Everyone of us has been influanced by good book, or speaker, or movie, or just friend....my first 'influance' was the movie '12 angry man'.Therefore, I always appreciate and value others 'common sense' opinion.
 
Good post, SunVenus! Good luck with your research!!!!....and thank you!

Everyone of us has been influanced by good book, or speaker, or movie, or just friend....my first 'influance' was the movie '12 angry man'.Therefore, I always appreciate and value others 'common sense' opinion.

LOL.. I thought I was the only one in love with that movie! I saw it when I was younger and I watched a week or so ago. Still has the same effect on me. The end should be the truth.
 
Yes. Because I can relate differently to other people than my husband. I don't know how to explain it, But when I am falling apart, I tend to talk to my mom or my aunt. Cry on their shoulder. Dh deals with things completely differently than I do but I bet he would want my dad or our Pastor. We would almost not want to be together because It might break us to wrap ourselves in the reality of it. Now I don't know the Ramseys. I am just saying that how people react is just not a good indicator of much. We are all so very different and react so differently. How can one ever know how they would react to such a thing. They did not divorce in the end. Where many many couples who go through something tragic do.

Dear Pirplegrl, I completely understand and agree with you. Everyone behaves differently. No 'standards' and no 'receipies' on how to deal with grief or hardship in life.

In regards to Ramseys, there are so many 'out of charts' behavior examples which raised concerns and questions of it's sincerity.

And again, you're correct. Many families are falling apart after child's death. Guilt and grief, like rust, eating relationship away. Why Ramseys stayed together? Maybe because they cannot stay apart, 'partners in crime' stays together:). jmo
 
LOL.. I thought I was the only one in love with that movie! I saw it when I was younger and I watched a week or so ago. Still has the same effect on me. The end should be the truth.

O no, you are not the only one!!!! I love this movie! One of the best ever!!! No remake could replace this black and white masterpiece!!!!
 
O no, you are not the only one!!!! I love this movie! One of the best ever!!! No remake could replace this black and white masterpiece!!!!

And the actors..Henry Fonda, Jack Klugman.. Awesomeness! We'll will always have that to agree on.. ;)
 
And the actors..Henry Fonda, Jack Klugman.. Awesomeness! Well will always have that to agree on.. ;)

Absolutely! We are friends forever binded by '12 angry man'!!!!

**** by the way, out of topic, did you noticed how the lighting is changing everytime the votes are re-recounted? The operator's
work is brilliant!!!....******

Sorry guys for out of topic discussion!!!
 
LOL.. I thought I was the only one in love with that movie! I saw it when I was younger and I watched a week or so ago. Still has the same effect on me. The end should be the truth.

Just a really great movie with a great message.

BBM. I think what you said is what most everyone on this board wants. Hopefully it will eventually come.

I, for one, enjoy reading your posts.
 
And the actors..Henry Fonda, Jack Klugman.. Awesomeness! We'll will always have that to agree on.. ;)

Pirplegrl, OM4U, BOESP-- another reason I love this forum: little things like movie suggestions! I just called my local video store, they have it and I'm going to go get it. I need something to do this afternoon (have migriane & need a break from crime & history study), and this sounds like the perfect movie to watch, and simply relax, drink a cup of tea.

Thank you for the recommendation (and hearing Jack Klugman is in it really got me happy). I want to comment on the excellent point Pirplegrl made on grieving styles, but I'm not at my best right now. But expect a post from me in the next day or so; you made a great point, and I do have a small counterpoint, but you provided an awesome example of an area that I'd put less weight on evidence-wise than other factors.

Hugs to you all. :)
 
Pirplegrl, OM4U, BOESP-- another reason I love this forum: little things like movie suggestions! I just called my local video store, they have it and I'm going to go get it. I need something to do this afternoon (have migriane & need a break from crime & history study), and this sounds like the perfect movie to watch, and simply relax, drink a cup of tea.

Thank you for the recommendation (and hearing Jack Klugman is in it really got me happy). I want to comment on the excellent point Pirplegrl made on grieving styles, but I'm not at my best right now. But expect a post from me in the next day or so; you made a great point, and I do have a small counterpoint, but you provided an awesome example of an area that I'd put less weight on evidence-wise than other factors.

Hugs to you all. :)

Enjoy the movie and PLEASE let us know if you like it!
 
Enjoy the movie and PLEASE let us know if you like it!

OMG! Just finished watching it and LOVED it! What a powerful story, and great acting. Thank you for recommending it!

I now return you to your regular programming. :)
 
What do the parents of a kidnapped child look like? My dh and I are happy. Been together 22 years. We love each other. We also get each other. We don't grieve together though. We tend to deal alone and then come together later. We need to deal with our own feelings first. I can not imagine the shock and horror that they must have felt.

I don't decide people guilt or innocent based on reaction. I just have seen to many people who have been through terrible things, react so completely differently.
I'm not deciding their guilt based on their reactions of grief.. What I was wondering about was the 'anger' between them that was reported that day...and actually, I was talking about before JB was found, so there shouldn't have been any grieving yet.
 
I'm not deciding their guilt based on their reactions of grief.. What I was wondering about was the 'anger' between them that was reported that day...and actually, I was talking about before JB was found, so there shouldn't have been any grieving yet.

Anger could also have been perception. It could have just been stress, nervousness, fear.. They are all pretty close.
 
One thing reported was Officer French, iirc, stated Patsy acted oddly. He also said she peered at him through splayed fingers while she held her hands up to cover her face (seemingly while crying). Officers are trained to observe and render judgements based on that training. I can't totally discount his opinion or Arndt's. It is opinion, yes, but it is trained, professional opinion (in my opinion :)).

There are difference facial muscles involved in the expression of fear, anger, nervousness. Subtle facial movements and actions can tell a trained observer many things not necessarily apparent to a lay person.

Stress can result from even good events.
 
I would like to add something to this discussion from the perspective 'what I would do?'. And I'll keep in mind what Pirplegrl said earlier: ' We are all so very different and react so differently.

OK, I'm powerfull CEO, rich and have connections, political and otherwise. My daughter has been kidnapped. LE and FBI came, installed the wire-tap and LEFT leaving me and my family with only one officer: woman, victim advocate, who seems lost, doesn't know what to do for more than 2.5 hours!!!! The time for kidnapper's call come and go...and nobody from LE and FBI are here, in my house!!!!! What I'm waiting for?...Why I'm NOT calling my 'connections', high-power people to speed-up the search? And why didn't they using these damn dogs which are outside of my house? Bring these dogs IN!!!! I'm demanding the SPECIAL attention to my family, right now! And don't you dare tell me that your officers are on the meeting! Let me talk to your Chief in charge!....Do you know who I am?...My daughter in danger, you're SOB!'.....

Cut!:)...I'm back to myself. Now, do you know what I mean with above?
 
One thing reported was Officer French, iirc, stated Patsy acted oddly. He also said she peered at him through splayed fingers while she held her hands up to cover her face (seemingly while crying). Officers are trained to observe and render judgements based on that training. I can't totally discount his opinion or Arndt's. It is opinion, yes, but it is trained, professional opinion (in my opinion :)).

There are difference facial muscles involved in the expression of fear, anger, nervousness. Subtle facial movements and actions can tell a trained observer many things not necessarily apparent to a lay person.

Stress can result from even good events.
and it was reported that they acted like a couple in the midst of a divorce. IMO, this observation would have been because of specific interactions, and it wouldn't have been mistaken with grief or the stress of waiting on the call. All I was wondering, was if this was their normal, every day interaction, or if it started that day, For instance, did anyone at FW's party notice anything? Were they angry with each other then too, or did they act like a happy, loving couple? Either way would be interesting to think about,,,especially since the ransom note was such an anger filled tirade against JR. The note was sandwiched in between the 2 events...the W's party and the waiting on the phone call, so, I am interested in any and everything that led up to the note writing. moo
 
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