Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Venom]

So, in regards to my post #1834 about never staying in that house again after such a horrific, odd, murder/kidnapping gone wrong, I have a question to ask my more knowlegeable WS-ers:

1. Did the R's continue to sleep and live in that house after this crime with the supposed perp still on the loose?

2. Did the R's ever receive another note from the perp since he/she did not succeed the first time in getting any money?

No, they never went back to the house. They stayed with friends until they moved back to Atlanta. They stayed with the S's for a while.

No other note that I've heard of.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

No, they never went back to the house. They stayed with friends until they moved back to Atlanta. They stayed with the S's for a while.

No other note that I've heard of.

Since the world knew she was dead, Who would write a note and ask for anything??

 

[BBB167893]

They were told not to talk to police by their attys. Nothing odd about that.

I follow.

Why they went before the media is not a hard thing for me to figure out. I think they knew the police were looking at them, They wanted someone to look for JBR's killer, they felt the police were not doing that.

That's the claim they made, anyway. Turned out to be a crock.

This is not the only case where the police were focused only on the family and trying to make them look guilty to the public. Lest we forget the Aisenbergs were the police bugged their house and released to the media that they were talking about drugs and killing the baby and yet when analyzed for the court there was NOTHING On those tapes.

Bad example, Scarlett. I heard those tapes on my TV speakers clear as glass when the case was examined on Nancy Grace. Another pair of sleazeballs who got away with it.

I believe that his PD focused in the wrong place way too soon, But I also believe if they had focused outside better, Preserved the evidence better, Secured the scene, and not cornered the R's they may have indeed found the killer and they would be in prison now.

Cases like this aren't solved on forensic evidence, Scarlett. They're solved by separating the two parents and placing them in holding cells until one of them cracks, which is EXACTLY what the police wanted to do. But that bleeding-heart Alex Hunter shot them down. And if you want a real-life example, look no further than the Lisa Steinberg case. That's how they got Hedda Nusbaum to testify against Joel.

 

[Venom]

Since the world knew she was dead, Who would write a note and ask for anything??

I don't know. I was answering a question.

 

[BBB167893]

Everything they did on behalf of their client is their job. It did not land them in trouble and they were not brought before the bar so that is just opinion.

What they did to Tom Miller isn't opinion! The Haddon firm's own private investigator fessed up in open court. And as for not landing them in trouble, I suppose nobody ever got away with it in this country due to their power and influence.

No, they weren't brought before the bar, and that's a damn shame. Because they would have brought a whole LOT of guys down with 'em.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I follow.



That's the claim they made, anyway. Turned out to be a crock.



Bad example, Scarlett. I heard those tapes on my TV speakers clear as glass when the case was examined on Nancy Grace. Another pair of sleazeballs who got away with it.



Cases like this aren't solved on forensic evidence, Scarlett. They're solved by separating the two parents and placing them in holding cells until one of them cracks, which is EXACTLY what the police wanted to do. But that bleeding-heart Alex Hunter shot them down. And if you want a real-life example, look no further than the Lisa Steinberg case. That's how they got Hedda Nusbaum to testify against Joel.

Sure they are. They are solved when the police look at the evidence with perspective and not tunnel vision. They are solved when the police don't alienate and attack the parents.

I heard those tapes too. Nothing to be had. In fact the Judge threw it all out. Think he would have done that if it where there? Nope..

At this point I believe that AH did not go for the charges because he knew something was hinky with the findings.

It is amazing that everyone whether they are LE or DA or Whatever as long as they stand up and make a decision that does not throw the R's into boiling oil have some kind of snark thrown at them. IT cannot be that they actually saw something different. I know this.. The people that seem to make the most profit are people writings books about how evil the R's are.

To me their feelings about LE turned out to be accurate.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

What they did to Tom Miller isn't opinion! The Haddon firm's own private investigator fessed up in open court. And as for not landing them in trouble, I suppose nobody ever got away with it in this country due to their power and influence.

No, they weren't brought before the bar, and that's a damn shame. Because they would have brought a whole LOT of guys down with 'em.

Apparently it is. Because if it was something that was actionable by the bar they would have been disbarred or sanctioned. None of that happened and it was not like it happened under a rock.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I don't know. I was answering a question.

Sorry, I was really reading you but answering the quoted question.. My bad.. It was more thinking out loud..

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I simply asked if there was ever another note left for the R's because there have been cases where a perp continued to leave "messages" like the Zodi*c killer as well as the LISK case where he continued to contact family members.

'Just curious about if the R's ever received any other note since the one they did receive was a tad *flowery* for a ransome note.

So this supposed perp that assaulted and murdered JBR (or maybe it was a kidnapping gone wrong) never did anything like it afterwards? No other similar cases? That was his one shot at kidnapping and he blew it? He/she didn't get any ransom money and he murdered a child?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

Many perps will repeat their crimes if they are not caught. What happened here? He's had lots of years to try and kidnap another child. It hasn't happened that we're aware of.

Therefore, RDI.

 

[Venom]

I simply asked if there was ever another note left for the R's because there have been cases where a perp continued to leave "messages" like the Zodi*c killer as well as the LISK case where he continued to contact family members.

'Just curious about if the R's ever received any other note since the one they did receive was a tad *flowery* for a ransome note.

So this supposed perp that assaulted and murdered JBR (or maybe it was a kidnapping gone wrong) never did anything like it afterwards? No other similar cases? That was his one shot at kidnapping and he blew it? He/she didn't get any ransom money and he murdered a child?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

Many perps will repeat their crimes if they are not caught. What happened here? He's had lots of years to try and kidnap another child. It hasn't happened that we're aware of.

Therefore, RDI.

A phantom maybe. :fence:

Seriously, maybe since the intruder did such a poor job at the kidnapping, he/she just decided to quit while they were ahead.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I simply asked if there was ever another note left for the R's because there have been cases where a perp continued to leave "messages" like the Zodi*c killer as well as the LISK case where he continued to contact family members.

'Just curious about if the R's ever received any other note since the one they did receive was a tad *flowery* for a ransome note.

So this supposed perp that assaulted and murdered JBR (or maybe it was a kidnapping gone wrong) never did anything like it afterwards? No other similar cases? That was his one shot at kidnapping and he blew it? He/she didn't get any ransom money and he murdered a child?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

Many perps will repeat their crimes if they are not caught. What happened here? He's had lots of years to try and kidnap another child. It hasn't happened that we're aware of.

Therefore, RDI.

We don't know that something did not apparently go way wrong in their plan and so they adapted for the next time. There are plenty of children sadly missing and killed each year.

I think this goes at most to Neutral. Not to the RDI category.

 

[BBB167893]

Sure they are. They are solved when the police look at the evidence with perspective and not tunnel vision. They are solved when the police don't alienate and attack the parents.

They're solved when law enforcement is more interested in JUSTICE than in playing politics.

I heard those tapes too. Nothing to be had. In fact the Judge threw it all out. Think he would have done that if it where there? Nope..

I wish I could believe that. But these last few years, too many judges have made too many mistakes for me to just blindly accept every judicial decision.

At this point I believe that AH did not go for the charges because he knew something was hinky with the findings.

I believe he was more afraid of something coming out that he didn't want to come out. I'm not sure what that might be; it's just a feeling I have. But he was not known as a tough or even good prosecutor.

It is amazing that everyone whether they are LE or DA or Whatever as long as they stand up and make a decision that does not throw the R's into boiling oil have some kind of snark thrown at them.

If it were up to me, they'd get WORSE than that! THEY should be the ones dropped into boiling oil!

IT cannot be that they actually saw something different. I know this.

I know a few things, too, Scarlett. And from what I've seen, there's a HUGE difference between seeing something differently and what went on here.

The people that seem to make the most profit are people writings books about how evil the R's are.

"Evil" is a strong word.

To me their feelings about LE turned out to be accurate.

Does a cobra feel friendly toward a mongoose? That's how I look at it.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

They're solved when law enforcement is more interested in JUSTICE than in playing politics.



I wish I could believe that. But these last few years, too many judges have made too many mistakes for me to just blindly accept every judicial decision.



I believe he was more afraid of something coming out that he didn't want to come out. I'm not sure what that might be; it's just a feeling I have. But he was not known as a tough or even good prosecutor.



If it were up to me, they'd get WORSE than that! THEY should be the ones dropped into boiling oil!



I know a few things, too, Scarlett. And from what I've seen, there's a HUGE difference between seeing something differently and what went on here.



"Evil" is a strong word.



Does a cobra feel friendly toward a mongoose? That's how I look at it.

I think AH knew there was something really wrong with their findings. I think he knew that it was all going to show the incompetence and he did not want that to be public.

No. There is just a difference of perspective of the facts.

Nothing more.

 

[BOESP]

No, they never went back to the house. They stayed with friends until they moved back to Atlanta. They stayed with the S's for a while.

No other note that I've heard of.

Interesting that you posted this Venom. I just spent the last 15 minutes reading through old posts here with the word "lies" in the heading. Under one of the posts there is a cut and paste for one of John Ramsey's interviews. It concerns him answering questions about who was in the Ramsey circle of friends. He specifically states that the Stines, both Susan and her husband, were not close friends of the Ramseys. They were more like acquaintances, or less, according to John's statements.

Isn't that odd the Ramseys would stay at the Stines several nights right after JonBenet's death when they didn't consider the Stines as friends? Iirc, John Ramsey even gave Mr. Stine a job in Georgia after the Ramseys left Colorado.

Really odd behavior to have to stay with non-friends when John gave such a long list of their genuine friends.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Interesting that you posted this Venom. I just spent the last 15 minutes reading through old posts here with the word "lies" in the heading. Under one of the posts there is a cut and paste for one of John Ramsey's interviews. It concerns him answering questions about who was in the Ramsey circle of friends. He specifically states that the Stines, both Susan and her husband, were not close friends of the Ramseys. They were more like acquaintances, or less, according to John's statements.

Isn't that odd the Ramseys would stay at the Stines several nights right after JonBenet's death when they didn't consider the Stines as friends? Iirc, John Ramsey even gave Mr. Stine a job in Georgia after the Ramseys left Colorado.

Really odd behavior to have to stay with non-friends when John gave such a long list of their genuine friends.

Yes, that is why I posed the question and Venom was so kind to reply. I vaguely recalled that about the St*ne's being merely aquaintances and yet they are the ones that the R's stayed with. Why?
Wouldn't the likeliest people that the R's would stay with were the Wh*te's?
And weren't they not on speaking terms fairly soon after JBR's death?

 

[BBB167893]

I think AH knew there was something really wrong with their findings. I think he knew that it was all going to show the incompetence and he did not want that to be public.

If you mean his OWN incompetence, I agree completely! That's pretty much the point I'm trying to make.

No. There is just a difference of perspective of the facts.

Nothing more.

Oh, come on, Scarlett. It was a LOT more than just a difference of perspective. Alex Hunter was KNOWN for this kind of BS. Here's a little excerpt for those who don't want to wait for December:

The DA's office in this case merits special attention. It probably tells you all you need to know about the DA's conduct in this case when you find out that their biggest supporters were and are the prime suspects, the prime suspects' lawyers and a whole mess of defense lawyers, including Larry Pozner, who believes that everyone is innocent until proven guilty and even then they're innocent, because every single cop is a fascist bulldog, and Alan Dershowitz, whose latest claim to fame is giving legal succor to those within the government who think it's okey-doky to torture people. Let's take a look at an exchange between him and Det. Thomas from Larry King Live in 2000:

DERSHOWITZ: A prosecutor should bring a case only when on the basis of admissible evidence the case would be proved to satisfaction of a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the constitutional standard. That's the standard we respect all through this country, and I think that Mr. Hunter was absolutely right in not bringing this country, and I think that Mr. Hunter was absolutely right in not bringing this case. I've looked at the Thompson book. It's full of speculation, theory, innuendo. He says his hypothesis is this. You know, that wouldn't even be a close case.

First of all, it's Thomas. Alan continued:

I think that Alex Hunter is, although he's become criticized, I think he's a constitutional hero. He's a man who has made a decision to take the barbs and the slings, and there are going to be many, because it's much easier to bring the case. It would take no courage to bring the prosecution, and then if the jury acquitted, blame it on the jury. But it takes a lot of courage for a district attorney to bite the bullet and take the hard decision, and say there was a murder, maybe it's even likely certain people did it, but likely isn't enough.

THOMAS: Well, let me make one comment. Mr. Dershowitz is with all due respect, a notorious criminal defense attorney. Where is a Vincent Bugliosi or a Rudy Giuliani sitting next to Mr. Hunter, these guys, who I consider hero prosecutors making that argument.
Ben Thompson, a Boulder County politician running for office at that time, summed it up on the same program: "It's political, the reason that it hasn't been prosecuted. And we have a district attorney's office that is more political than it is a prosecutor's office. I'm sitting here listening to those two talk, or those three talk, and it's strange to me that Alex sounds more like a defense attorney than a prosecutor, and that's part of the problem. Let me say there is a cancer in our DA's office, and whenever anybody points it out, what happens is they attack whoever points it out instead of addressing the issue and trying to solve the problem."

Patsy Ramsey had unqualified praise for the DA, Alex Hunter:

"I like the fact that he's determined to find out who did this and he wasn't going to rubber stamp the police decision."

Boy, that's just heartwarming. You're known by the friends you keep.

Alex Hunter did not want this case. He had been in office for almost thirty years without having to do much of anything. He hadn't taken a murder case to trial in almost ten years, he'd never brought the death penalty against anyone, and if not for the fact that trying to get a real, tough-on-crime prosecutor in the DA's office in Boulder is like trying to raise the Titanic remains with tweezers, probably would not have been in office so long. But Boulder has a crime rate that anyone would wish for, so he was kind of like a star on top of a Christmas tree. Then this case came along. He was cruising toward an easy retirement. He set up a definition of beyond a reasonable doubt that no one could meet. It's supposed to be "beyond a reasonable doubt,” not “beyond any doubt whatsoever and then some.” Hunter had to eliminate unreasonable doubt, as well. It has been said, only half-jokingly, that Alex Hunter would need a DNA match, a videotape of the perp committing the crime and a signed confession just to cut a deal. He gave the Ramseys so much evidence that the FBI was aghast and said he was a fool, and suggested that the police file malfeasance charges. He was BUSINESS partners with the Ramseys, as I mentioned. A blue-collar ironworker in the projects wouldn't get that kind of consideration. And he was weak. The police wanted to arrest the Ramseys, let them stew in jail for a while, and see which one cracked first. That is a STANDARD ploy in cases like this. It helps to remember that in cases of domestic homicide, guilty verdicts are not usually won on forensic evidence, since the kind of evidence you would expect to find in a case, such as hairs, fibers, DNA, etc., is expected to be there, since it's usually the killer's own house. In cases of domestic homicide, and there are several state and federal prosecutors who will bear me out on this, you solve it the old-fashioned way: you arrest both parties, throw them in jail, and if necessary, give them each the third degree in separate rooms until one of them confesses. In 1990, Lisa Steinberg, the illegally adopted daughter of Joel Steinberg and Hedda Nusbaum, was found beaten to death in her New York apartment. With no other recourse, the NYPD arrested both parents and jailed them. Hedda Nusbaum cracked. She hired a lawyer (Barry Scheck, who worked for OJ Simpson and the Boulder Police) and testified against her husband in exchange for immunity from prosecution. Joel Steinberg went to prison. What happened with the Steinbergs is exactly what the Boulder police wanted to do with the Ramseys. The "Dream Team" lawyers told them to do it, Chief Beckner suggested that they do it, but Hunter wouldn't do it. Too bad. I guess he figured it was too "police-state-ish" for his taste. Worse than that, the man undercut his own witnesses!

And this wasn't the first time he'd done this kind of thing. Just ask Kirk Long.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

If you mean his OWN incompetence, I agree completely! That's pretty much the point I'm trying to make.



Oh, come on, Scarlett. It was a LOT more than just a difference of perspective. Alex Hunter was KNOWN for this kind of BS. Here's a little excerpt for those who don't want to wait for December:

The DA's office in this case merits special attention. It probably tells you all you need to know about the DA's conduct in this case when you find out that their biggest supporters were and are the prime suspects, the prime suspects' lawyers and a whole mess of defense lawyers, including Larry Pozner, who believes that everyone is innocent until proven guilty and even then they're innocent, because every single cop is a fascist bulldog, and Alan Dershowitz, whose latest claim to fame is giving legal succor to those within the government who think it's okey-doky to torture people. Let's take a look at an exchange between him and Det. Thomas from Larry King Live in 2000:

DERSHOWITZ: A prosecutor should bring a case only when on the basis of admissible evidence the case would be proved to satisfaction of a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the constitutional standard. That's the standard we respect all through this country, and I think that Mr. Hunter was absolutely right in not bringing this country, and I think that Mr. Hunter was absolutely right in not bringing this case. I've looked at the Thompson book. It's full of speculation, theory, innuendo. He says his hypothesis is this. You know, that wouldn't even be a close case.

First of all, it's Thomas. Alan continued:

I think that Alex Hunter is, although he's become criticized, I think he's a constitutional hero. He's a man who has made a decision to take the barbs and the slings, and there are going to be many, because it's much easier to bring the case. It would take no courage to bring the prosecution, and then if the jury acquitted, blame it on the jury. But it takes a lot of courage for a district attorney to bite the bullet and take the hard decision, and say there was a murder, maybe it's even likely certain people did it, but likely isn't enough.

THOMAS: Well, let me make one comment. Mr. Dershowitz is with all due respect, a notorious criminal defense attorney. Where is a Vincent Bugliosi or a Rudy Giuliani sitting next to Mr. Hunter, these guys, who I consider hero prosecutors making that argument.
Ben Thompson, a Boulder County politician running for office at that time, summed it up on the same program: "It's political, the reason that it hasn't been prosecuted. And we have a district attorney's office that is more political than it is a prosecutor's office. I'm sitting here listening to those two talk, or those three talk, and it's strange to me that Alex sounds more like a defense attorney than a prosecutor, and that's part of the problem. Let me say there is a cancer in our DA's office, and whenever anybody points it out, what happens is they attack whoever points it out instead of addressing the issue and trying to solve the problem."

Patsy Ramsey had unqualified praise for the DA, Alex Hunter:

"I like the fact that he's determined to find out who did this and he wasn't going to rubber stamp the police decision."

Boy, that's just heartwarming. You're known by the friends you keep.

Alex Hunter did not want this case. He had been in office for almost thirty years without having to do much of anything. He hadn't taken a murder case to trial in almost ten years, he'd never brought the death penalty against anyone, and if not for the fact that trying to get a real, tough-on-crime prosecutor in the DA's office in Boulder is like trying to raise the Titanic remains with tweezers, probably would not have been in office so long. But Boulder has a crime rate that anyone would wish for, so he was kind of like a star on top of a Christmas tree. Then this case came along. He was cruising toward an easy retirement. He set up a definition of beyond a reasonable doubt that no one could meet. It's supposed to be "beyond a reasonable doubt,” not “beyond any doubt whatsoever and then some.” Hunter had to eliminate unreasonable doubt, as well. It has been said, only half-jokingly, that Alex Hunter would need a DNA match, a videotape of the perp committing the crime and a signed confession just to cut a deal. He gave the Ramseys so much evidence that the FBI was aghast and said he was a fool, and suggested that the police file malfeasance charges. He was BUSINESS partners with the Ramseys, as I mentioned. A blue-collar ironworker in the projects wouldn't get that kind of consideration. And he was weak. The police wanted to arrest the Ramseys, let them stew in jail for a while, and see which one cracked first. That is a STANDARD ploy in cases like this. It helps to remember that in cases of domestic homicide, guilty verdicts are not usually won on forensic evidence, since the kind of evidence you would expect to find in a case, such as hairs, fibers, DNA, etc., is expected to be there, since it's usually the killer's own house. In cases of domestic homicide, and there are several state and federal prosecutors who will bear me out on this, you solve it the old-fashioned way: you arrest both parties, throw them in jail, and if necessary, give them each the third degree in separate rooms until one of them confesses. In 1990, Lisa Steinberg, the illegally adopted daughter of Joel Steinberg and Hedda Nusbaum, was found beaten to death in her New York apartment. With no other recourse, the NYPD arrested both parents and jailed them. Hedda Nusbaum cracked. She hired a lawyer (Barry Scheck, who worked for OJ Simpson and the Boulder Police) and testified against her husband in exchange for immunity from prosecution. Joel Steinberg went to prison. What happened with the Steinbergs is exactly what the Boulder police wanted to do with the Ramseys. The "Dream Team" lawyers told them to do it, Chief Beckner suggested that they do it, but Hunter wouldn't do it. Too bad. I guess he figured it was too "police-state-ish" for his taste. Worse than that, the man undercut his own witnesses!

And this wasn't the first time he'd done this kind of thing. Just ask Kirk Long.

Nice essay..

It is a matter of perspective and nothing more. It is a matter of taking the facts that are real facts and evidence and applying it to the crime. There are more than a few things that play either way. When I look at the total, It adds up to too much doubt to put the R's in the cross hairs. It just is not there.

I think it takes character to stand up and be counted when other people just want you to sweep it all in their direction. That is just momentum not forward progress.

Some times the truth is in the simple things.

 

[Venom]

Interesting that you posted this Venom. I just spent the last 15 minutes reading through old posts here with the word "lies" in the heading. Under one of the posts there is a cut and paste for one of John Ramsey's interviews. It concerns him answering questions about who was in the Ramsey circle of friends. He specifically states that the Stines, both Susan and her husband, were not close friends of the Ramseys. They were more like acquaintances, or less, according to John's statements.

Isn't that odd the Ramseys would stay at the Stines several nights right after JonBenet's death when they didn't consider the Stines as friends? Iirc, John Ramsey even gave Mr. Stine a job in Georgia after the Ramseys left Colorado.

Really odd behavior to have to stay with non-friends when John gave such a long list of their genuine friends.

Yes, I read that too. I think it was in his deposition? I thought it was odd to say they weren't real good friends and then stay with them.

 

[BOESP]

Yes, that is why I posed the question and Venom was so kind to reply. I vaguely recalled that about the St*ne's being merely aquaintances and yet they are the ones that the R's stayed with. Why?
Wouldn't the likeliest people that the R's would stay with were the Wh*te's?
And weren't they not on speaking terms fairly soon after JBR's death?

I would think the Whites would have been first choice, especially since the Ramseys had already entrusted Burke into their care. Following the Whites would have been the Fernies. These were the folks called over the morning of the 26th.

Just really weird that the people considered so close to the Ramseys, according to John, were cast aside in favor of, basically, nobodies (which is the impression John gave of his and Patsy's acquaintance with the Stines).

 

[Venom]

I would think the Whites would have been first choice, especially since the Ramseys had already entrusted Burke into their care. Following the Whites would have been the Fernies. These were the folks called over the morning of the 26th.

Just really weird that the people considered so close to the Ramseys, according to John, were cast aside in favor of, basically, nobodies (which is the impression John gave of his and Patsy's acquaintance with the Stines).

I believe they (S's) became quite the Ramsey bulldogs too.