Known rope in the house

[txsvicki]

I know it was 16 years ago, but it's hard to think of a college guy using an old type hard suitcase instead of a big duffel bag and laundry drawstring totes. My kids were teens back then and would never have been seen carrying around something like that.

 

[dodie20]

DeeDee249,
The comforter as a size consideration, yes, but what has a suitcase to do with a washing machine?

Was John attempting to frame JAR?


.

I don't think so. If anything, it sounds like he was surprised that the suitcase was there, and he, himself was wondering why. If the suitcase was carried back and forth to college, it makes sense that it was used to tote laundry...but with that said, I'm not convinced. IMO, the suitcase and comforter could be clues. Not clues that point to JR, but clues that point to whoever placed the suitcase and blanket in such a conspicuous place. Since I'm convinced PR wrote the note, I believe she was probably responsible for any other staging that night. This would be calculating beyond belief, but if someone is pressed against a wall, she might be desperate enough to cast suspicion elsewhere... and it would have to be against somebody who had regular access to the house. MOO.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
The comforter as a size consideration, yes, but what has a suitcase to do with a washing machine?

Was John attempting to frame JAR?


.

If JAR brought that comforter home from school to be laundered, and the only washing machine it fit in was in the basement, that could account for the suitcase being in the basement (where the washer was) as opposed to JAR's room, where there was another washer/dryer set that was smaller. That is what the suitcase has to do with a washing machine.

I do not think JR was trying to frame JAR. I am simply trying to figure out whether the suitcase and/or the comforter had anything to do with the crime or whether it was simply there because that is where the washer was and the comforter needed to be washed. I do not believe the suitcase was ever used to climb on.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't think so. If anything, it sounds like he was surprised that the suitcase was there, and he, himself was wondering why. If the suitcase was carried back and forth to college, it makes sense that it was used to tote laundry...but with that said, I'm not convinced. IMO, the suitcase and comforter could be clues. Not clues that point to JR, but clues that point to whoever placed the suitcase and blanket in such a conspicuous place. Since I'm convinced PR wrote the note, I believe she was probably responsible for any other staging that night. This would be calculating beyond belief, but if someone is pressed against a wall, she might be desperate enough to cast suspicion elsewhere... and it would have to be against somebody who had regular access to the house. MOO.

One of the points I was trying to make is that if the suitcase was in the basement because the comforter only fit in the basement washer that is something JR might not have known. I doubt he was aware of what was washed in which washer- LHP did the laundry, and I am sure her contact with JR as far as housekeeping was minimal at best. However, Patsy would surely know which washer LHP used for certain things and would have been aware that JB's white blanket, which was washed nearly every day as she wet the bed nearly every day, was in the basement dryer as opposed to the dryer right outside JB's room.
Patsy would know where that comforter (in the suitcase) would have been washed too. If it was washed in the basement, that is a perfectly good reason for the suitcase to be in the basement.
JR could have made that comment about the suitcase not belonging in the basement because he was unaware that it only fit in the basement washer. He would have supposed it belonged upstairs in JAR's room.
And I also think the suitcase, its placement and contents may not have anything to do with the crime at all.

 

[midwest mama]

One of the points I was trying to make is that if the suitcase was in the basement because the comforter only fit in the basement washer that is something JR might not have known. I doubt he was aware of what was washed in which washer- LHP did the laundry, and I am sure her contact with JR as far as housekeeping was minimal at best. However, Patsy would surely know which washer LHP used for certain things and would have been aware that JB's white blanket, which was washed nearly every day as she wet the bed nearly every day, was in the basement dryer as opposed to the dryer right outside JB's room.
Patsy would know where that comforter (in the suitcase) would have been washed too. If it was washed in the basement, that is a perfectly good reason for the suitcase to be in the basement.
JR could have made that comment about the suitcase not belonging in the basement because he was unaware that it only fit in the basement washer. He would have supposed it belonged upstairs in JAR's room.
And I also think the suitcase, its placement and contents may not have anything to do with the crime at all.

From the interview of JR by Lou Smit and Mike Kane on June 25, 1998:
(Refer to pgs 360-361 from NE, JonBenet: The Police Files)

"LS: .....can you think of why there would be a sham or duvet in John Andrews's suitcase along with a Dr. Seuss book?
JR: No. My recollection of where that suitcase came from was he brought some clothes from Atlanta...and it ended up and it was in his room for a while, then it was in the laundry room outside of his room for a while, and then I carried it downstairs. I presumed it was empty."

Fiber samples found on JB matched those from inside the suitcase, according to this from acandyrose.com:

15 Q. And CBI had at one point come up
16 with a conclusion that there was a
17 consistency between fibers found on a blanket
18 in the suitcase that matched fibers on
19 JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is
20 that the right term?


Wait....:waitasec: fibers found on a blanket in the suitcase that matched fibers on JonBenet's body??: :what::what:

 

[UKGuy]

If JAR brought that comforter home from school to be laundered, and the only washing machine it fit in was in the basement, that could account for the suitcase being in the basement (where the washer was) as opposed to JAR's room, where there was another washer/dryer set that was smaller. That is what the suitcase has to do with a washing machine.

I do not think JR was trying to frame JAR. I am simply trying to figure out whether the suitcase and/or the comforter had anything to do with the crime or whether it was simply there because that is where the washer was and the comforter needed to be washed. I do not believe the suitcase was ever used to climb on.

DeeDee249,
And you would transfer the suitcase all the way down to the basement, including the book, because?


.

 

[UKGuy]

From the interview of JR by Lou Smit and Mike Kane on June 25, 1998:
(Refer to pgs 360-361 from NE, JonBenet: The Police Files)

"LS: .....can you think of why there would be a sham or duvet in John Andrews's suitcase along with a Dr. Seuss book?
JR: No. My recollection of where that suitcase came from was he brought some clothes from Atlanta...and it ended up and it was in his room for a while, then it was in the laundry room outside of his room for a while, and then I carried it downstairs. I presumed it was empty."

Fiber samples found on JB matched those from inside the suitcase, according to this from acandyrose.com:

15 Q. And CBI had at one point come up
16 with a conclusion that there was a
17 consistency between fibers found on a blanket
18 in the suitcase that matched fibers on
19 JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is
20 that the right term?


Wait....:waitasec: fibers found on a blanket in the suitcase that matched fibers on JonBenet's body??: :what::what:

OMG , well that puts the domestic ignorance theory to bed. But, hey, do I get the feeling that JR appears to be making it up as he fields the questions?

nice find!


.

 

[midwest mama]

OMG , well that puts the domestic ignorance theory to bed. But, hey, do I get the feeling that JR appears to be making it up as he fields the questions?

nice find!


.

Well............regardless of JR's reasoning for ANY of his answers that have helped to confuse this case for nearly 16 years, let's consider these three things:

1. He SAID he had to move a chair to get into the Train Room to look things over.
2. He SAID he closed and latched the open broken window in the Train Room.
3. He SAID he moved JAR's suitcase to the basement.

So, maybe all done to establish with the authorities why his fingerprints might have shown up if those items were dusted? Otherwise, if all those crime related items proved to have his prints on them, might he have been more closely scrutinized, and wouldn't 'reasonable doubt' have been more difficult to establish?

 

[UKGuy]

Well............regardless of JR's reasoning for ANY of his answers that have helped to confuse this case for nearly 16 years, let's consider these three things:

1. He SAID he had to move a chair to get into the Train Room to look things over.
2. He SAID he closed and latched the open broken window in the Train Room.
3. He SAID he moved JAR's suitcase to the basement.

So, maybe all done to establish with the authorities why his fingerprints might have shown up if those items were dusted? Otherwise, if all those crime related items proved to have his prints on them, might he have been more closely scrutinized, and wouldn't 'reasonable doubt' have been more difficult to establish?

midwest mama,
Well I admit to being confused about his answers. I wonder why he moved JAR's suitcase to the basement, was it an innocent move, or is there more to it?

Could be the suitcase was to be used to take something out of the house, but when this was abandonded, the suitcase was just left standing, and John just tells any old story?

I definitely think John was rearranging stuff so to hide some prior staging? That he actually closed and latched what appears to be an intruder point of entry is amazing.

John was basically saying to anyone who would listen that the train room window had nothing to do with any intruder.

Someone had staged a crime-scene in the basement this apparently was dismantled and the R's went for the kidnapping scenario, difficult to work out why, then John just makes up the answers to suit the occassion?


.

 

[Chrishope]

midwest mama,
Well I admit to being confused about his answers. I wonder why he moved JAR's suitcase to the basement, was it an innocent move, or is there more to it?

Could be the suitcase was to be used to take something out of the house, but when this was abandonded, the suitcase was just left standing, and John just tells any old story?

I definitely think John was rearranging stuff so to hide some prior staging? That he actually closed and latched what appears to be an intruder point of entry is amazing.

John was basically saying to anyone who would listen that the train room window had nothing to do with any intruder.

Someone had staged a crime-scene in the basement this apparently was dismantled and the R's went for the kidnapping scenario, difficult to work out why, then John just makes up the answers to suit the occassion?
.

And yet, we can be pretty sure that JR broke the window the night before.

 

[midwest mama]

And yet, we can be pretty sure that JR broke the window the night before.

Something that keeps bothering me about JR breaking the window the night of the crime and then cleaning up the glass -- the disarray in the photos of the train room shows quite a bit of stuff scattered around on the floor.

Here's the links to photos:

http://www.acandyrose.com/trainroom-window.jpg

http://www.acandyrose.com/suitcase-window.jpg

I wonder how JR could have cleaned up the glass well enough with all that mess on the floor so as not to leave behind some telltale breakage - even small pieces caught up in fabrics, folds, stuffed toys, etc. that were close enough in that room to have caught shards of glass?

That leads me to believe the disarray in the area would be because of having to pick things up and move them about to clean up glass. In looking through the other crime scene photos, especially in areas where the kids played, it's the same sort of mess. If stuff was tossed about during a clean up, one would not have had to worry about putting things back, since the disarray looked pretty normal for the Ramsey house.

We have to remember that Fleet White said (with regard to his first trip into the basement in the early morning) he moved the suitcase around to look for pieces of broken glass. That signals Fleet must have thought the window looked as if it could have been broken as a point of entry, especially since it was unlatched. He said put a piece of glass that he found on the windowsill. And it has been stated that when JR and Fleet went into that room first, they both searched around for more pieces of broken glass.

Evidently, they were sure all signs of fresh entry were not there.

So, as Fleet and JR could now claim there was no scattered glass, and the window was closed and latched, John was justified in saying "it was an inside job", when he laid JB down in front of the detectives. And that should have tied someone known to, or within, the family to the ransom note. Especially when the note also included the $118,000 - another main clue that should have led investigators to first consider either of the two options.

The RST went down the known intruder road. There was a powerful team of expensive people gathered to undertake this task. Alas, even Smit joined up and introduced another possible avenue for them to promote.

Yet, Law Enforcement stayed on the family. Remember, LE had photo evidence on their side from the beginning. And, that said, let's use one of them again.....

There was a small piece of glass on the suitcase in one of the photos. (See photo in post #212 of this thread) JR himself said he thought the suitcase being there was odd - that it normally wasn't there. :what:

I do not believe that piece of glass on the suitcase would have been on it before being placed under the window and could have stayed in place with the suitcase as it was moved from another location in the basement to under that window the night of the crime.

If the suitcase would have been moved under the window the night of the crime, the only way glass could have been photographed on top of the suitcase was if it "popped" there after it had been moved around by Fleet, crumbled off the window and dropped onto it as JR closed and latched the window, or got overlooked during a clean up. :moo:

 

[txsvicki]

The window could really have been broken previously and Patsy could have used it to create an intruder trail from Jonbenet's room to out the basement window, pulling out a piece of the glass in the window. But, it didn't even have to be broken. Just saying it could have been left unlatched was enough. I'd be shocked if there wasn't an unlocked window down there with a bunch of kids playing and climbing. Climbing up and yelling out the window to each other would be typical kid behavior as well as sneaky housewife smoking down there.

 

[Chrishope]

Something that keeps bothering me about JR breaking the window the night of the crime and then cleaning up the glass -- the disarray in the photos of the train room shows quite a bit of stuff scattered around on the floor.

Here's the links to photos:

http://www.acandyrose.com/trainroom-window.jpg

http://www.acandyrose.com/suitcase-window.jpg

I wonder how JR could have cleaned up the glass well enough with all that mess on the floor so as not to leave behind some telltale breakage - even small pieces caught up in fabrics, folds, stuffed toys, etc. that were close enough in that room to have caught shards of glass?

That leads me to believe the disarray in the area would be because of having to pick things up and move them about to clean up glass. In looking through the other crime scene photos, especially in areas where the kids played, it's the same sort of mess. If stuff was tossed about during a clean up, one would not have had to worry about putting things back, since the disarray looked pretty normal for the Ramsey house.

We have to remember that Fleet White said (with regard to his first trip into the basement in the early morning) he moved the suitcase around to look for pieces of broken glass. That signals Fleet must have thought the window looked as if it could have been broken as a point of entry, especially since it was unlatched. He said put a piece of glass that he found on the windowsill. And it has been stated that when JR and Fleet went into that room first, they both searched around for more pieces of broken glass.

Evidently, they were sure all signs of fresh entry were not there.

So, as Fleet and JR could now claim there was no scattered glass, and the window was closed and latched, John was justified in saying "it was an inside job", when he laid JB down in front of the detectives. And that should have tied someone known to, or within, the family to the ransom note. Especially when the note also included the $118,000 - another main clue that should have led investigators to first consider either of the two options.

The RST went down the known intruder road. There was a powerful team of expensive people gathered to undertake this task. Alas, even Smit joined up and introduced another possible avenue for them to promote.

Yet, Law Enforcement stayed on the family. Remember, LE had photo evidence on their side from the beginning. And, that said, let's use one of them again.....

There was a small piece of glass on the suitcase in one of the photos. (See photo in post #212 of this thread) JR himself said he thought the suitcase being there was odd - that it normally wasn't there. :what:

I do not believe that piece of glass on the suitcase would have been on it before being placed under the window and could have stayed in place with the suitcase as it was moved from another location in the basement to under that window the night of the crime.

If the suitcase would have been moved under the window the night of the crime, the only way glass could have been photographed on top of the suitcase was if it "popped" there after it had been moved around by Fleet, crumbled off the window and dropped onto it as JR closed and latched the window, or got overlooked during a clean up. :moo:

MWM,

Do you recall if FW also put the piece of glass on the suitcase? Or was it just on the window sill? If he didn't put the glass on the suitcase, then it got there from the window breaking. If that happened in July/August, then the suitcase had been there that long as well. That seems unlikely with JAR using it transport laundry.

I think it got overlooked as you suggest.

 

[midwest mama]

MWM,

Do you recall if FW also put the piece of glass on the suitcase? Or was it just on the window sill? If he didn't put the glass on the suitcase, then it got there from the window breaking. If that happened in July/August, then the suitcase had been there that long as well. That seems unlikely with JAR using it transport laundry.

I think it got overlooked as you suggest.

Here is a reference from PMPT by Schiller, pg. 44:
"White told the detectives that he had been there only a few minutes when he started to search the house.........................He started in Burke's train and hobby room,where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the window."

From FF, by Kolar, pg. 28: "White observed a window to the Train Room to closed and unlatched, and he was immediately drawn to the area A particular upper left quadrant of the window was broken..........Sections of fractured glass were missing from this part of the window, and he inspected the area closely for the remnants of these pieces..... White did find a small single kernel of glass on the floor......He placed this on the ledge of the window frame and, leaving the window in its original condition, moved on to complete his survey of the basement."

From Steve Thomas' book, pg. 20: (Referring to White) - A small broken window in a large room where a model railroad was laid out caught his attention, and on the floor beneath the window he found a piece of glass, which he placed on the ledge. He dropped to his hands and knees, searching for other pieces, and moved a suitcase in doing so."

Three accounts, each just a bit different, but with the same main activities and outcome. The glass White found was placed on the ledge. IF he found a small piece of glass and placed it on the suitcase, there are no accounts of such.

 

[Chrishope]

Here is a reference from PMPT by Schiller, pg. 44:
"White told the detectives that he had been there only a few minutes when he started to search the house.........................He started in Burke's train and hobby room,where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the window."

From FF, by Kolar, pg. 28: "White observed a window to the Train Room to closed and unlatched, and he was immediately drawn to the area A particular upper left quadrant of the window was broken..........Sections of fractured glass were missing from this part of the window, and he inspected the area closely for the remnants of these pieces..... White did find a small single kernel of glass on the floor......He placed this on the ledge of the window frame and, leaving the window in its original condition, moved on to complete his survey of the basement."

From Steve Thomas' book, pg. 20: (Referring to White) - A small broken window in a large room where a model railroad was laid out caught his attention, and on the floor beneath the window he found a piece of glass, which he placed on the ledge. He dropped to his hands and knees, searching for other pieces, and moved a suitcase in doing so."

Three accounts, each just a bit different, but with the same main activities and outcome. The glass White found was placed on the ledge. IF he found a small piece of glass and placed it on the suitcase, there are no accounts of such.

Then the glass on the suitcase must come from the break, and that means either the suitcase stood in the same spot since July/Aug, or the break was the night of the 25th. My money is on the window being broken Christmas night.

 

[UKGuy]

Then the glass on the suitcase must come from the break, and that means either the suitcase stood in the same spot since July/Aug, or the break was the night of the 25th. My money is on the window being broken Christmas night.

Chrishope,
But midwest mama posted:

From the interview of JR by Lou Smit and Mike Kane on June 25, 1998:
(Refer to pgs 360-361 from NE, JonBenet: The Police Files)

"LS: .....can you think of why there would be a sham or duvet in John Andrews's suitcase along with a Dr. Seuss book?
JR: No. My recollection of where that suitcase came from was he brought some clothes from Atlanta...and it ended up and it was in his room for a while, then it was in the laundry room outside of his room for a while, and then --> I <-- carried it downstairs. I presumed it was empty."

So you need to find out when JAR returned from Atlanta, and compare this with JR's window breaking date?

Although if the dates vary then the R's might argue that glass residue fell from either the window or the window sill, after the event?


.

 

[midwest mama]

Chrishope,
But midwest mama posted:


So you need to find out when JAR returned from Atlanta, and compare this with JR's window breaking date?

Although if the dates vary then the R's might argue that glass residue fell from either the window or the window sill, after the event?


.

Waiting to see if Chrishope turns up some dates......

Strictly my guess, but if JAR brought clothes from Atlanta, I think it might have been just prior to the fall quarter starting - especially since it was reported the duvet in the suitcase came from his dorm room. That says to me he unloaded the clothes in his dorm room, and then brought home the suitcase with the soiled duvet, probably sometime from the end of August - Dec?? He stayed on campus during the week, but with the R's over the weekend.

Of course, the glass could have fallen from the ledge onto the top of the suitcase. But what would be the chance that one small piece of glass was poised on the ledge so as to fall perfectly on top of that narrow suitcase edge, and then not bounce off again? I would be interested to see the results of tests done using the same materials, and TRYING to get that piece of glass to land on that suitcase from a drop of approximately 3 feet, and having it stay in place. I suppose this would have to be demonstrated in court to remove any 'reasonable doubt'.

I work with gemstones in my shop, and if I drop one the size of that piece of glass from my work table top to the floor, I hear it ping, but I guarantee you it never lands on the floor just below - it always bounces away, and I have to find it using a flashlight down on my hands and knees. Sometimes it settles as much as 3 feet away!

 

[OpenMind4U]

Waiting to see if Chrishope turns up some dates......

Strictly my guess, but if JAR brought clothes from Atlanta, I think it might have been just prior to the fall quarter starting - especially since it was reported the duvet in the suitcase came from his dorm room. That says to me he unloaded the clothes in his dorm room, and then brought home the suitcase with the soiled duvet, probably sometime from the end of August - Dec?? He stayed on campus during the week, but with the R's over the weekend.

Of course, the glass could have fallen from the ledge onto the top of the suitcase. But what would be the chance that one small piece of glass was poised on the ledge so as to fall perfectly on top of that narrow suitcase edge, and then not bounce off again? I would be interested to see the results of tests done using the same materials, and TRYING to get that piece of glass to land on that suitcase from a drop of approximately 3 feet, and having it stay in place. I suppose this would have to be demonstrated in court to remove any 'reasonable doubt'.

I work with gemstones in my shop, and if I drop one the size of that piece of glass from my work table top to the floor, I hear it ping, but I guarantee you it never lands on the floor just below - it always bounces away, and I have to find it using a flashlight down on my hands and knees. Sometimes it settles as much as 3 feet away!

Maybe it's time to call this piece of glass the Traveling Evidence #2 (leaving the winning #1 for the Traveling Ransom Note)..?...First, the tiny piece of glass has fallen from the window and landed comfortably on the hard surface of the suitcase. Next, FW has MOVED this suitcase but the glass stays like nothing happens...Hmmmm...I don't think so! The only TWO explanations for this piece of glass to be found on the suitcase are:

a) JR place it during his trip to the basement between 9:00am - 11:00am (way AFTER FW's visit to the basement) or
b) JR 'found' and place it during his final trip to the basement with FW...

Regardless, IMO, this particular piece of glass was placed on the suitcase on December 26, AFTER an initial FW trip to the basement....IMO, LE always knew that this 'broken window' story is not the kosher one...

Good discussion, guys!...And by the way, the Traveling Evidence #3 is the Suitcase...too many things mysteriosly have been traveled in Ramsey house 16 years ago...maybe Ghost Did It?! :woohoo:

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
But midwest mama posted:


So you need to find out when JAR returned from Atlanta, and compare this with JR's window breaking date?

Although if the dates vary then the R's might argue that glass residue fell from either the window or the window sill, after the event?


.

I don't know when he came back from Atlanta. But that won't solve the problem because I don't know what JR means by "a while". He says the suitcase was in his room a while, then outside the room a while, then JR brought it to the basement.

JR isn't specific about the date of the break in when he forgot his key. He says July or August, so we have a 60 day window of time there. (JR also claims, well, he can't really quite recall, but maybe, he broke the window out one or two other times for the same reason. Has the suitcase been sitting there for years under the window?) JAR was a student at U of Co so it's pretty safe to assume he was back before the end of summer. Classes would probably begin early in Sept.

I don't believe for a minute that JR broke the window during the summer. If he had the glass would have been cleaned up better, including the piece on the floor that FW picked up and placed on the sill, and the piece on the suitcase.

They could claim it fell from the sill, but why is glass still on the sill if the window was broken during the summer?

 

[Chrishope]

Waiting to see if Chrishope turns up some dates......

Strictly my guess, but if JAR brought clothes from Atlanta, I think it might have been just prior to the fall quarter starting - especially since it was reported the duvet in the suitcase came from his dorm room. That says to me he unloaded the clothes in his dorm room, and then brought home the suitcase with the soiled duvet, probably sometime from the end of August - Dec?? He stayed on campus during the week, but with the R's over the weekend.

Of course, the glass could have fallen from the ledge onto the top of the suitcase. But what would be the chance that one small piece of glass was poised on the ledge so as to fall perfectly on top of that narrow suitcase edge, and then not bounce off again? I would be interested to see the results of tests done using the same materials, and TRYING to get that piece of glass to land on that suitcase from a drop of approximately 3 feet, and having it stay in place. I suppose this would have to be demonstrated in court to remove any 'reasonable doubt'.

I work with gemstones in my shop, and if I drop one the size of that piece of glass from my work table top to the floor, I hear it ping, but I guarantee you it never lands on the floor just below - it always bounces away, and I have to find it using a flashlight down on my hands and knees. Sometimes it settles as much as 3 feet away!

It makes sense that JAR came back before classes started, which would probably mean he came back late August. But then the suitcase has to sit in his room "a while" then in the laundry area upstairs "a while" then JR (supposedly) carries it downstairs.

But, as you point out, the duvet is from the dorm room, so obviously JAR took the suitcase there. He could have brought it home any weekend. So even if it was under the window when JR broke in sometime in July/Aug, it made the trip to the dorm room, after returning from Atlanta. So why is there a piece of glass on it ?