Known rope in the house

[midwest mama]

Maybe it's time to call this piece of glass the Traveling Evidence #2 (leaving the winning #1 for the Traveling Ransom Note)..?...First, the tiny piece of glass has fallen from the window and landed comfortably on the hard surface of the suitcase. Next, FW has MOVED this suitcase but the glass stays like nothing happens...Hmmmm...I don't think so! The only TWO explanations for this piece of glass to be found on the suitcase are:

a) JR place it during his trip to the basement between 9:00am - 11:00am (way AFTER FW's visit to the basement) or
b) JR 'found' and place it during his final trip to the basement with FW...

Regardless, IMO, this particular piece of glass was placed on the suitcase on December 26, AFTER an initial FW trip to the basement....IMO, LE always knew that this 'broken window' story is not the kosher one...

Good discussion, guys!...And by the way, the Traveling Evidence #3 is the Suitcase...too many things mysteriosly have been traveled in Ramsey house 16 years ago...maybe Ghost Did It?! :woohoo:

Nice to have you back posting OM4U! You always have a thoughtful angle to consider!

Right to think the glass might not have survived staying on the suitcase during FW moving it around. Especially if he picked it up and moved it, rather than just shoving it around. So, that then brings into play your option 2 of JR causing it to be there, no matter how.

Since LE decided it important enough to take a crime scene photo of it, the question is: What is it's implied significance, or as Chrishope asks, why is it there?

 

[OpenMind4U]

Nice to have you back posting OM4U! You always have a thoughtful angle to consider!

Right to think the glass might not have survived staying on the suitcase during FW moving it around. Especially if he picked it up and moved it, rather than just shoving it around. So, that then brings into play your option 2 of JR causing it to be there, no matter how.

Since LE decided it important enough to take a crime scene photo of it, the question is: What is it's implied significance, or as Chrishope asks, why is it there?

Thank you MM! (just between us, it's nice to be on vacation... IMO, suitcase as well as the broken window are the staging props. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum shared the same opinion for long time. Why the glass is there? It's simple. The piece of glass ON the suitcase MUST be there to establish the following links:

IDI EXIT---> placing suitcase under window---> trying to get through the window---> disturbing the broken glass on the window sill--->glass is fallen ON the suitcase.

By JR/LS theory, the broken window is ENTRY point, right? The suitcase has no role for intruder's entry, agree? Now, the 'staging' requires the EXIT (disappearance of the intruder). Hence SUITCASE. But placing suitcase under the window is not enough. If glass has been broken before the suitcase was placed then the broken glass should be UNDER the suitcase. Therefore, IMO, FW was moving the suitcase, looking for the glass on the floor, kind of underneath the suitcase. At this point of time, FW has no knowledge of JR story about this window to be broken in the summer...FW didn't find much of the glass...therefore, he was comfortable to not mention about the 'broken window' to Arndt. He understood that this window has nothing to do with kidnapping (suitcase or not suitcase!).

Now, let's follow the JR action when he went to the basement with FW. If it's true that he DID broke this window before - what was the reason to look for the glass on the floor?...Why not give more attention to the suitcase (which according to JR was at the 'wrong'/unusual place!)?! But JR was telling FW about the window, not the suitcase....JR is 'staging the intruder seed' in FW mind about the ENTRY point...he wasn't worry about the EXIT because he already 'fixed' everything while being in basement after 9:00am, after FW disturbance. Based on JR and FW interviews, do you remember the differences in their accounts about latched/unlatched/open/closed window?...I do believe this small piece of glass is a big evidence against JR. He really shoot himself in the foot with this 'broken window'...JMO.

But honestly, I more interesting in CONTEXT of the suitcase. What's the reason behind JR statement that he thought it was empty?!!!...Does duvet and book inside makes the difference in weight? Why need to mention about 'empty, no context' in the suitcase???...and again, the same as the broken window (and you, MM, made an EXCELLENT analysis!!!), JR is constantly placing himself into 'smoke/mirror' of the evidences:
- I broke the window in the basement...but in summer;
- I brought JAR suitcase to the basement...but to the different place;
- I thought/believe the suitcase was empty (by the way, I don't know what duvet means and hence how much it weights...

JMO

 

[txsvicki]

Didn't LS try to claim that the intruder may have had glass on his shoe then got it on the suitcase when stepping on it to get out the window? I may be imagining this but it sounds familiar.

 

[Chrishope]

Thank you MM! (just between us, it's nice to be on vacation... IMO, suitcase as well as the broken window are the staging props. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum shared the same opinion for long time. Why the glass is there? It's simple. The piece of glass ON the suitcase MUST be there to establish the following links:

IDI EXIT---> placing suitcase under window---> trying to get through the window---> disturbing the broken glass on the window sill--->glass is fallen ON the suitcase.

By JR/LS theory, the broken window is ENTRY point, right? The suitcase has no role for intruder's entry, agree? Now, the 'staging' requires the EXIT (disappearance of the intruder). Hence SUITCASE. But placing suitcase under the window is not enough. If glass has been broken before the suitcase was placed then the broken glass should be UNDER the suitcase. Therefore, IMO, FW was moving the suitcase, looking for the glass on the floor, kind of underneath the suitcase. At this point of time, FW has no knowledge of JR story about this window to be broken in the summer...FW didn't find much of the glass...therefore, he was comfortable to not mention about the 'broken window' to Arndt. He understood that this window has nothing to do with kidnapping (suitcase or not suitcase!).

Now, let's follow the JR action when he went to the basement with FW. If it's true that he DID broke this window before - what was the reason to look for the glass on the floor?...Why not give more attention to the suitcase (which according to JR was at the 'wrong'/unusual place!)?! But JR was telling FW about the window, not the suitcase....JR is 'staging the intruder seed' in FW mind about the ENTRY point...he wasn't worry about the EXIT because he already 'fixed' everything while being in basement after 9:00am, after FW disturbance. Based on JR and FW interviews, do you remember the differences in their accounts about latched/unlatched/open/closed window?...I do believe this small piece of glass is a big evidence against JR. He really shoot himself in the foot with this 'broken window'...JMO.

But honestly, I more interesting in CONTEXT of the suitcase. What's the reason behind JR statement that he thought it was empty?!!!...Does duvet and book inside makes the difference in weight? Why need to mention about 'empty, no context' in the suitcase???...and again, the same as the broken window (and you, MM, made an EXCELLENT analysis!!!), JR is constantly placing himself into 'smoke/mirror' of the evidences:
- I broke the window in the basement...but in summer;
- I brought JAR suitcase to the basement...but to the different place;
- I thought/believe the suitcase was empty (by the way, I don't know what duvet means and hence how much it weights...

JMO

The story about the window being the entry/exit point for the intruder is a joint JR/LS theory, but only later. On the 26th, LS is of course not on the case. JR specifically tells FW that the window was broken during the summer. JR is denying that the intruder got in via that window. Later JR's story would change with the help of LS. On the 26th, JR definitely didn't want anyone thinking that the window is where the intruder entered or left.

If the suitcase is a prop, I don't think it has anything to do with stepping on it to get the the window. There was a chair nearby (thank you daily beast) which would serve that function much better. Again, on the 26ty JR is offering an alternate explanation about the broken window discouraging police form thinking it's the point of entry/exit. The suitcase therefore could not have had anything to do with climbing up to the window, since JR doesn't want police to believe that scenario anyway. Likewise, the chair is off to the side, even though it's a much better tool for accessing the window. The chair wasn't overlooked as something to climb on, JR simply didn't want to use that scenario.

I didn't know what a duvet was either until I became interested in this case. I still don't know how much one weighs. Would the weight of the duvet be obvious when lifting the suitcase?

 

[txsvicki]

I believe from working in retail years ago that a duvet is just a thin covering that slips over a comforter, usually a really nice comforter like down that a person might not want to launder as much. I've never used them, And always heard them called duvet covers, but they wouldn't be as bulky as a comforter but would be thicker than a sheet.

 

[OpenMind4U]

The story about the window being the entry/exit point for the intruder is a joint JR/LS theory, but only later. On the 26th, LS is of course not on the case. JR specifically tells FW that the window was broken during the summer. JR is denying that the intruder got in via that window. Later JR's story would change with the help of LS. On the 26th, JR definitely didn't want anyone thinking that the window is where the intruder entered or left.

If the suitcase is a prop, I don't think it has anything to do with stepping on it to get the the window. There was a chair nearby (thank you daily beast) which would serve that function much better. Again, on the 26ty JR is offering an alternate explanation about the broken window discouraging police form thinking it's the point of entry/exit. The suitcase therefore could not have had anything to do with climbing up to the window, since JR doesn't want police to believe that scenario anyway. Likewise, the chair is off to the side, even though it's a much better tool for accessing the window. The chair wasn't overlooked as something to climb on, JR simply didn't want to use that scenario.

I didn't know what a duvet was either until I became interested in this case. I still don't know how much one weighs. Would the weight of the duvet be obvious when lifting the suitcase?

...and here I'm respectfully disagree! First of all, where did you read that 'JR is denying that the intruder got in via that window'? IMO, the story about the summer accident in which he climed into that window 'BACKWARD'-way waspurposely mention to FW that morning and to LE long after that (before LS joined the Ramsey Team) for one and only one reason: to proof that PERSON CAN GET INSIDE into the house because he did it himself!!!

Secondly, where and why would you see that 'on the 26ty JR is offering an alternate explanation about the broken window discouraging police form thinking it's the point of entry/exit. ??? If you believe that 'broken window' wasn't part of the 'staging' then what was the purpose to take FW straight into the Training room and making such an attention to the window and glass on the floor?

IMO, JR made all the afford to ENCOURAGE FW and LE to think of possibility of this kind of entry/exit. Remember, he said that all doors (on the first floor) were locked. He checked himself. The only possible 'alternate' would be people who has the key to the house, right? But look who were on the suspect list: how many of these INSIDERS would have a key??? Only few: his neighbor and housekeeper....not his ex-employees, not Santa Claus, not FW, not his other many friends 'under the bus'...

I don't believe LS creates the 'window' entry/exit theory. He simply re-enforced what JR 'creates' on the day one.

How many trips JR made to this innocent window looking for the glass? TWO (what we know!): after FW and together with FW. Does amount of glass on the floor has been changed between these trips?...therefore I asked in my prior post: why JR need to look for the glass on the floor while making his second trip to the basement??? And the only answer I have is to encourage FW to think: if he, JR, could get into the house this way then anyone else could as well!...This particular window in the basement (as well as the suitcase - o, I know about this suitcase, I took it down to the basement!) plays the 'staging' role....and JR did everything he could to get as much attention to both of them!....JMO

....and suitcase with it's context bothers me much-much more....I wish we know Burke's answer to this question: 'Where you saw this suitcase the last time?'....hmmm...interesting, why do I have the feeling that BR never saw this suitcase at all?!!!

Regarding duvet weight, if JR had no knowledge of it's weight because he doesn't know what it's mean and if JR did NOT open this suitcase prior bringing into the basement then 'I thought it was empty' remark is more than strange to me.

JMO

 

[Chrishope]

...and here I'm respectfully disagree! First of all, where did you read that 'JR is denying that the intruder got in via that window'? IMO, the story about the summer accident in which he climed into that window 'BACKWARD'-way waspurposely mention to FW that morning and to LE long after that (before LS joined the Ramsey Team) for one and only one reason: to proof that PERSON CAN GET INSIDE into the house because he did it himself!!!

Secondly, where and why would you see that 'on the 26ty JR is offering an alternate explanation about the broken window discouraging police form thinking it's the point of entry/exit. ??? If you believe that 'broken window' wasn't part of the 'staging' then what was the purpose to take FW straight into the Training room and making such an attention to the window and glass on the floor?

IMO, JR made all the afford to ENCOURAGE FW and LE to think of possibility of this kind of entry/exit. Remember, he said that all doors (on the first floor) were locked. He checked himself. The only possible 'alternate' would be people who has the key to the house, right? But look who were on the suspect list: how many of these INSIDERS would have a key??? Only few: his neighbor and housekeeper....not his ex-employees, not Santa Claus, not FW, not his other many friends 'under the bus'...

I don't believe LS creates the 'window' entry/exit theory. He simply re-enforced what JR 'creates' on the day one.

How many trips JR made to this innocent window looking for the glass? TWO (what we know!): after FW and together with FW. Does amount of glass on the floor has been changed between these trips?...therefore I asked in my prior post: why JR need to look for the glass on the floor while making his second trip to the basement??? And the only answer I have is to encourage FW to think: if he, JR, could get into the house this way then anyone else could as well!...This particular window in the basement (as well as the suitcase - o, I know about this suitcase, I took it down to the basement!) plays the 'staging' role....and JR did everything he could to get as much attention to both of them!....JMO

....and suitcase with it's context bothers me much-much more....I wish we know Burke's answer to this question: 'Where you saw this suitcase the last time?'....hmmm...interesting, why do I have the feeling that BR never saw this suitcase at all?!!!

Regarding duvet weight, if JR had no knowledge of it's weight because he doesn't know what it's mean and if JR did NOT open this suitcase prior bringing into the basement then 'I thought it was empty' remark is more than strange to me.

JMO

Why would anyone seeing a broken window need encouragement to view it as an entry/exit point? Was JR afraid that FW/LE were too dumb to get the idea? And why would he encourage the view that the window is where the intruder came in, knowing that the grate was in place, the spider web was intact, and the dirt on the sill undisturbed? That's as good as saying "I staged the window as an entry point but didn't have time to finish the staging".

By saying that he broke the window in July/Aug, he is giving an alternate excuse for the broken window. The other explanation being that the intruder broke it the night of the 25th. JR needed to downplay the window as the entry point because it was obvious that no one came in that way.

By the time LS joins the team, it's obvious the police aren't ever going to figure out what really happened. If a respected detective is going to push the window as entry point theory, then no reason for JR to go against it. But he sure was going against it the morning of the 26th.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I believe from working in retail years ago that a duvet is just a thin covering that slips over a comforter, usually a really nice comforter like down that a person might not want to launder as much. I've never used them, And always heard them called duvet covers, but they wouldn't be as bulky as a comforter but would be thicker than a sheet.

Absolutely correct! Duvet is the LARGE 'pillow case' for the blanket. And it's weight = 2 sheets. The single duvet (for the single bed blanket) should be pretty light. Assuming that JAR used the single bed blanket in college, plus the book, this suitcase should not be heavy at all!!!....It should feels like empty. And according to JR, he brought to basement the 'empty' suitcase for the storage which is very reasonable explanation for taking the 'empty' suitcase into the basement. If JR fingerprints were found on this suitcase - it would have such an innocent explanation why he touched this suitcase: it was empty and he brought it down for the storage. In another words, it must be empty to land in the basememnt by JR...

 

[OpenMind4U]

Why would anyone seeing a broken window need encouragement to view it as an entry/exit point? Was JR afraid that FW/LE were too dumb to get the idea? And why would he encourage the view that the window is where the intruder came in, knowing that the grate was in place, the spider web was intact, and the dirt on the sill undisturbed? That's as good as saying "I staged the window as an entry point but didn't have time to finish the staging".

By saying that he broke the window in July/Aug, he is giving an alternate excuse for the broken window. The other explanation being that the intruder broke it the night of the 25th. JR needed to downplay the window as the entry point because it was obvious that no one came in that way.

By the time LS joins the team, it's obvious the police aren't ever going to figure out what really happened. If a respected detective is going to push the window as entry point theory, then no reason for JR to go against it. But he sure was going against it the morning of the 26th.

Dear, I think you missed the point I've try to make. It's not about the broken window and glass. NOBODY would consider this window as the entry/exit point if JR wouldn't say that HE USED THIS WINDOW as the ENTRY point. You see, FW saw this window and broken glass and suitcase - and nothing, he didn't consider it as possibility for kidnappers to use it. If FW would be concerned - he would tell this to Arndt right away. Before FW, others LE personnel were in the basement and saw this window/suitcase and made no connection to the entry point (and they're looking for specific thing: to find the entry point of kidnapper at that time!). So, without JR story - this window/suitcase would NEVER be consider as possibility for kidnappers entry/exit point! It was JR who make this window/suitcase an important items, not the items themselves!!! JR was making the alternative solution for INSIDER to enter his home without the key. JMO

 

[Chrishope]

Dear, I think you missed the point I've try to make. It's not about the broken window and glass. NOBODY would consider this window as the entry/exit point if JR wouldn't say that HE USED THIS WINDOW as the ENTRY point. You see, FW saw this window and broken glass and suitcase - and nothing, he didn't consider it as possibility for kidnappers to use it. If FW would be concerned - he would tell this to Arndt right away. Before FW, others LE personnel were in the basement and saw this window/suitcase and made no connection to the entry point (and they're looking for specific thing: to find the entry point of kidnapper at that time!). So, without JR story - this window/suitcase would NEVER be consider as possibility for kidnappers entry/exit point! It was JR who make this window/suitcase an important items, not the items themselves!!! JR was making the alternative solution for INSIDER to enter his home without the key. JMO

Nobody would consider the window as an entry/exit point, period. JR's story is not relevant to the plausibility of the window as an entry point. It's implausible, even with the story.

The reasons no one would consider this an entry/exit point are - 1) The spider web is still intact, meaning no one ever removed the grate, 2) the dirt on the sill is not disturbed as it would be if someone slid across the sill, and 3) the grate is in place, meaning that the kidnappers, upon exiting the window, stopped, turned around, and put the grate back in place, taking up time on something unnecessary. JR's story doesn't make the window a more plausible entry/exit point.

As you say, the police had already looked at the window, and they put in their report that there were no signs of forced entry. What JR needed was not a story that made police think the intruder came in the window - the police knew no one came in the window- what JR needed was a story to show that he didn't stage the window. If he broke it in July/Aug then that explains the broken window and hopefully the police wouldn't think he broke it the night before to stage a kidnapping.

The only reason for telling the story to FW is that FW was in the basement looking at the window. An explanation was required, otherwise FW would suspect JR broke the window the night before. It's important to convince FW that the window wasn't broken the night before, because it's obvious (the grate, the spider web, the sill) that no one did come in that way.

JR isn't laying the groundwork for the idea that the window was used by the kidnappers. No one in their right mind (e.g. no one not working for the DA's office or on the Ramsey payroll -was that redundant? ) thinks anyone came in that window the night before, even with JR's story. JR is pointing away from the all too obvious staging.

 

[Chrishope]

I believe from working in retail years ago that a duvet is just a thin covering that slips over a comforter, usually a really nice comforter like down that a person might not want to launder as much. I've never used them, And always heard them called duvet covers, but they wouldn't be as bulky as a comforter but would be thicker than a sheet.

So light enough in weight that it wouldn't be noticed if the suitcase was picked up?

 

[learnin]

...and here I'm respectfully disagree! First of all, where did you read that 'JR is denying that the intruder got in via that window'? IMO, the story about the summer accident in which he climed into that window 'BACKWARD'-way waspurposely mention to FW that morning and to LE long after that (before LS joined the Ramsey Team) for one and only one reason: to proof that PERSON CAN GET INSIDE into the house because he did it himself!!!

Secondly, where and why would you see that 'on the 26ty JR is offering an alternate explanation about the broken window discouraging police form thinking it's the point of entry/exit. ??? If you believe that 'broken window' wasn't part of the 'staging' then what was the purpose to take FW straight into the Training room and making such an attention to the window and glass on the floor?

IMO, JR made all the afford to ENCOURAGE FW and LE to think of possibility of this kind of entry/exit. Remember, he said that all doors (on the first floor) were locked. He checked himself. The only possible 'alternate' would be people who has the key to the house, right? But look who were on the suspect list: how many of these INSIDERS would have a key??? Only few: his neighbor and housekeeper....not his ex-employees, not Santa Claus, not FW, not his other many friends 'under the bus'...

I don't believe LS creates the 'window' entry/exit theory. He simply re-enforced what JR 'creates' on the day one.

How many trips JR made to this innocent window looking for the glass? TWO (what we know!): after FW and together with FW. Does amount of glass on the floor has been changed between these trips?...therefore I asked in my prior post: why JR need to look for the glass on the floor while making his second trip to the basement??? And the only answer I have is to encourage FW to think: if he, JR, could get into the house this way then anyone else could as well!...This particular window in the basement (as well as the suitcase - o, I know about this suitcase, I took it down to the basement!) plays the 'staging' role....and JR did everything he could to get as much attention to both of them!....JMO

....and suitcase with it's context bothers me much-much more....I wish we know Burke's answer to this question: 'Where you saw this suitcase the last time?'....hmmm...interesting, why do I have the feeling that BR never saw this suitcase at all?!!!

Regarding duvet weight, if JR had no knowledge of it's weight because he doesn't know what it's mean and if JR did NOT open this suitcase prior bringing into the basement then 'I thought it was empty' remark is more than strange to me.

JMO

I agree with you.

1. There are two reasons why John went to the train room first thing.
a. he didn't want to be so obvious by going straight to the wine
cellar.
b. he wanted FW to see the broken window before he "discovered" the
body.

2. If John was totally unaware of what happened, he would never have
downplayed that broken window. A man, looking for his daughter's
kidnapper, would have alerted police to that broken window even if
he had broken the window earlier.

3. John downplayed the broken window because John wanted FW and
law enforcement to make the connection. The last thing a stager
would want to do would be to draw attention to his own staging!

4. As you wrote, John related the story of his entering that window
to lead LE and FW to know that someone can enter the house that
way.

 

[Chrishope]

I agree with you.

1. There are two reasons why John went to the train room first thing.
a. he didn't want to be so obvious by going straight to the wine
cellar.
b. he wanted FW to see the broken window before he "discovered" the
body.

2. If John was totally unaware of what happened, he would never have
downplayed that broken window. A man, looking for his daughter's
kidnapper, would have alerted police to that broken window even if
he had broken the window earlier.

3. John downplayed the broken window because John wanted FW and
law enforcement to make the connection. The last thing a stager
would want to do would be to draw attention to his own staging!

4. As you wrote, John related the story of his entering that window
to lead LE and FW to know that someone can enter the house that
way.

There is no way that JR's story can make the grate pop out, or destroy the intact spider web, or mess up the dirt on the window sill sufficiently that anyone -even Boulder PD- would believe anyone came in that way. Since his story cannot possibly make entry/exit through the window plausible, it most likely isn't the purpose of his story.

Anyone looking at the window knows that it's theoretically possible to come in/go out that way. It's not like JR's story suddenly alerts FW/LE to the possibility that people can get through windows that are larger than themselves.

But it's equally true that anyone looking at that window knows no one came in or out that way. JR's story can't change that. The only thing JR's story changes is people's perception of when the window was broken, and that's important because it's very obvious that no kidnappers came in/out the window.

 

[learnin]

Nobody would consider the window as an entry/exit point, period. JR's story is not relevant to the plausibility of the window as an entry point. It's implausible, even with the story.

The reasons no one would consider this an entry/exit point are - 1) The spider web is still intact, meaning no one ever removed the grate, 2) the dirt on the sill is not disturbed as it would be if someone slid across the sill, and 3) the grate is in place, meaning that the kidnappers, upon exiting the window, stopped, turned around, and put the grate back in place, taking up time on something unnecessary. JR's story doesn't make the window a more plausible entry/exit point.

As you say, the police had already looked at the window, and they put in their report that there were no signs of forced entry. What JR needed was not a story that made police think the intruder came in the window - the police knew no one came in the window- what JR needed was a story to show that he didn't stage the window. If he broke it in July/Aug then that explains the broken window and hopefully the police wouldn't think he broke it the night before to stage a kidnapping.

The only reason for telling the story to FW is that FW was in the basement looking at the window. An explanation was required, otherwise FW would suspect JR broke the window the night before. It's important to convince FW that the window wasn't broken the night before, because it's obvious (the grate, the spider web, the sill) that no one did come in that way.

JR isn't laying the groundwork for the idea that the window was used by the kidnappers. No one in their right mind (e.g. no one not working for the DA's office or on the Ramsey payroll -was that redundant? ) thinks anyone came in that window the night before, even with JR's story. JR is pointing away from the all too obvious staging.

If no one, except the DA's office, would think the basement window could've been used for entry to the house, why did Boulder police make note that there was a spider web attached to the grate? Obviously, when they first looked at the broken basement window, they had to reason it might be a point of entry or they would not have looked for more signs as to whether things were disturbed. Thus, they found the spider web which assured them the kidnapper did not use this point of entry.


Do you think John knew his daughter's body was in the wine cellar before he
"discovered" her? If you do, ask yourself why he led FW to the train room before "discovering" her body? There were a good number of rooms he could have traversed other than the train room? There was the bathroom which had a window that could have been used as an entry point? The boiler room? The laundry room?

 

[learnin]

[/B]

There is no way that JR's story can make the grate pop out, or destroy the intact spider web, or mess up the dirt on the window sill sufficiently that anyone -even Boulder PD- would believe anyone came in that way. Since his story cannot possibly make entry/exit through the window plausible, it most likely isn't the purpose of his story.

Anyone looking at the window knows that it's theoretically possible to come in/go out that way. It's not like JR's story suddenly alerts FW/LE to the possibility that people can get through windows that are larger than themselves.

But it's equally true that anyone looking at that window knows no one came in or out that way. JR's story doesn't change that. The only thing JR's story changes is people's perception of when the window was broken, and that's important because it's very obvious that no kidnappers came in/out the window.

1.Obviously, Lou Smit's window entry theory had enough support to put doubt into the minds of the Grand Jury. There was some disruption of the window sill dirt although it looked as if it had been longer than one day.

2. If John did stage the window as an entry point, I doubt he would have known, or even considered, a thin strand of spider web connected to the grate.

3. If John, on the 26th, did not want, or did not think, that LE would consider the window as point of entry and exit, then, why did he change his opinion later when Smit tried to push the impossible scenario? I don't know your position, but, do you think John was totally innocent of any coverup that night?

 

[Chrishope]

If no one, except the DA's office, would think the basement window could've been used for entry to the house, why did Boulder police make note that there was a spider web attached to the grate? Obviously, when they first looked at the broken basement window, they had to reason it might be a point of entry or they would not have looked for more signs as to whether things were disturbed. Thus, they found the spider web which assured them the kidnapper did not use this point of entry.

Even the DA/LS didn't actually believe the intruder came in/out that window. That's the claim they made, but no one with two functional brain cells could believe anyone came in/out that window after examining it.

Of course they had reason to examine the window. At first glance it's an obvious point of entry/exit. As you say, once they found the spider web (as well as other signs) they were sure no one had come in/out that way. JR's story can't change that conclusion.

Do you think John knew his daughter's body was in the wine cellar before he
"discovered" her? If you do, ask yourself why he led FW to the train room before "discovering" her body? There were a good number of rooms he could have traversed other than the train room? There was the bathroom which had a window that could have been used as an entry point? The boiler room? The laundry room?

Yes, JR knew where the body was. He led FW to the train room because he knew he was going to find the body. If he'd gone straight through the boiler room to the WC then it would be too obvious he was going right to the body. It might have been better had he gone to the laundry room, then storage room, then back to the door leading to the train room, then back out and through the boiler room to the WC. But he probably thought one detour before finding the body was sufficient.

There is no reason he needed to lead FW/LE to "make the connection" that people can come through windows. That's obvious enough, even to BPD.

It's about 1pm when FW/JR are looking at the window and JR is telling his story. At that point in the day there is no way his story can make the window a plausible entry/exit point. The police have already inspected it, and they have already concluded no one came in/out that way.

 

[Chrishope]

1.Obviously, Lou Smit's window entry theory had enough support to put doubt into the minds of the Grand Jury. There was some disruption of the window sill dirt although it looked as if it had been longer than one day.

I agree. It would be interesting to know more about what the GJ saw/heard. No doubt they saw the LS road show. A competent DA, trying to get an indictment, should have been able to make mincemeat out of LS's theory. But as we know, the DA wasn't trying to get the Ramseys. The DA was doing everything he could to get the Rs off the hook. I wonder if they even tried to refute LS's "evidence"?

2. If John did stage the window as an entry point, I doubt he would have known, or even considered, a thin strand of spider web connected to the grate.

I'd say it's almost certain he didn't know, because he had not gone outside, and had not removed the grate either from outside or by pushing it out from inside.

3. If John, on the 26th, did not want, or did not think, that LE would consider the window as point of entry and exit, then, why did he change his opinion later when Smit tried to push the impossible scenario? I don't know your position, but, do you think John was totally innocent of any coverup that night?

I think the most likely scenarios is JR killed JBR and did all the staging. Basically my position is the same as DocG's http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/08/clear-evidence-of-staging-basement.html

Why wouldn't JR change his position later? LS, a highly respected detective, was pushing the idea that an intruder came in/out the window. LS is helping JR get off the hook. JR can't very well say "Hey Lou, it's highly unlikely anyone came in or out that way".

IMO there is no getting around the fact that the grate is in place, the web is intact, and the dirt only very slightly disturbed -not nearly disturbed enough to suggest someone came in or got out that way. JR's story cannot make the window a plausible POE, so his purpose in telling that story can't be to help anyone make that "connection".

 

[midwest mama]

Nobody would consider the window as an entry/exit point, period. JR's story is not relevant to the plausibility of the window as an entry point. It's implausible, even with the story.

The reasons no one would consider this an entry/exit point are - 1) The spider web is still intact, meaning no one ever removed the grate, 2) the dirt on the sill is not disturbed as it would be if someone slid across the sill, and 3) the grate is in place, meaning that the kidnappers, upon exiting the window, stopped, turned around, and put the grate back in place, taking up time on something unnecessary. JR's story doesn't make the window a more plausible entry/exit point.

As you say, the police had already looked at the window, and they put in their report that there were no signs of forced entry. What JR needed was not a story that made police think the intruder came in the window - the police knew no one came in the window- what JR needed was a story to show that he didn't stage the window. If he broke it in July/Aug then that explains the broken window and hopefully the police wouldn't think he broke it the night before to stage a kidnapping.

The only reason for telling the story to FW is that FW was in the basement looking at the window. An explanation was required, otherwise FW would suspect JR broke the window the night before. It's important to convince FW that the window wasn't broken the night before, because it's obvious (the grate, the spider web, the sill) that no one did come in that way.

JR isn't laying the groundwork for the idea that the window was used by the kidnappers. No one in their right mind (e.g. no one not working for the DA's office or on the Ramsey payroll -was that redundant? ) thinks anyone came in that window the night before, even with JR's story. JR is pointing away from the all too obvious staging.

Agree. Two other points to consider:

1. Kolar book does say that FW mentioned the broken window to officers.
Did they minimize his comment since they had determined there were
no exterior signs of forced entry, as Chrishope mentions above?

2. When JR laid JonBenet down in the hall, he said "it's an inside job." I
believe this is a blatant attempt on his part to point the finger away from
himself, and also from an intruder.

 

[Chrishope]

Agree. Two other points to consider:

1. Kolar book does say that FW mentioned the broken window to officers.
Did they minimize his comment since they had determined there were
no exterior signs of forced entry, as Chrishope mentions above?

2. When JR laid JonBenet down in the hall, he said "it's an inside job." I
believe this is a blatant attempt on his part to point the finger away from
himself, and also from an intruder.

Thank you. I don't have Kolar's book yet so I didn't know -with certainty- that JR had mentioned the broken window to officers. Did he tell them he broke it earlier? I've suspected yes, because they know about it during the April '97 interviews.

 

[UKGuy]

There is no way that JR's story can make the grate pop out, or destroy the intact spider web, or mess up the dirt on the window sill sufficiently that anyone -even Boulder PD- would believe anyone came in that way. Since his story cannot possibly make entry/exit through the window plausible, it most likely isn't the purpose of his story.

Anyone looking at the window knows that it's theoretically possible to come in/go out that way. It's not like JR's story suddenly alerts FW/LE to the possibility that people can get through windows that are larger than themselves.

But it's equally true that anyone looking at that window knows no one came in or out that way. JR's story can't change that. The only thing JR's story changes is people's perception of when the window was broken, and that's important because it's very obvious that no kidnappers came in/out the window.

Chrishope,
Enroute to the wine-cellar JR is obviously in staging mode. He is about to discover JonBenet. I think his remarks to Fleet White could be viewed in this context.

Its possible he was flagging up the window as a potential point of entry. That JR broke the window does not prevent an intruder coming through it. JR may have hoped FW would add broken window and JonBenet together and arrive at the window as the most likeliest point of entry.

The thing to prove or disprove is: did JR break that window when locked out?

If JR cannot corroborate his story then I reckon what he tells FW is a fabrication to account for obvious forensic evidence?

In other words JR is being disengenuous, his broken window story is obfuscation, an attempt at planting prior suspicion in FW's mind.

This is exactly what you might expect from someone who is about to reveal a staged crime-scene.

What JR did not know was that, in the majority of staged crime-scenes, it is the perpetrator who finds the victim!


.