GUILTY KS - Dr. George Tiller, 67, shot to death at his Wichita church, 31 May 2009

[FishingFunnyFrog]

And how many adopted children do you have...???

I have one adopted...and 2 birthed.

 

[Kimster]

PeteyGirl- I agree with you that the assassin is a cold blooded killer and should be punished to the full extent of the law. I also believe that George Tiller should have been punished to the full extent of the law. Some of the children he killed were born...and living outside of the womb when he killed them. His "clinic" also offers funerary services to women- meaning they can have pictures and funerals for the children he just murdered in cold blood.

There has been great debate in my state (Kansas) and around the world about the practice of Partial Birth Abortion and I also believe that the majority of Americans believe Partial Birth Abortion is murder. Here is a link to pictures of babies who were aborted by Partial Birth Abortion (they look just like my children when they were born...clearly not just a "lump of cells" that can be debated in other forms of abortion): http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/

Exactly! :clap:

 

[LinasK]

I am very heated about abortion...it is murder! However, I do not believe that by murdering a man, in his church, who is obeying the law of the land, is going to save any babies' lives. I just don't see how in the world it will! All it did was keep those who are pro-abortion from looking at the facts on the other side because now many will think everyone who believes in pro-life are hypocrites.

And I disagree, like you I switched sides. When I was about 15- I fell for the arguements that you could be killing a future Einstein, that was before my eyes were opened. Since then I have been firmly pro-choice!

 

[Kimster]

And I disagree, like you I switched sides. When I was about 15- I fell for the arguements that you could be killing a future Einstein, that was before my eyes were opened. Since then I have been firmly pro-choice!

While I will never understand that switch, I do respect the fact that you at least looked at both sides before making your decision! So many people won't take a look at both sides of such an important issue.

We both agree that murdering the doctor was wrong!

 

[PeteyGirl]

How can you say this has nothing to do with abortion when it was exactly his line of work that caused him to be a target?

I don't think we voted on abortion, I think 9 judges decided it.

I don't think the killer is justified but I do see the problem with the abortion debate in this country because it involves the so-called killing, or taking the lives of others as well.

As you are very heated about this man's life being taken, others are just as heated about the lives of the unborn, so who is justified in being heated? Both I assume, but without one we wouldn't have the other, just sayin...

I am using the same line of reasoning that I use with all murders. What caused the guy in OR to murder his little boy and girl? What caused them to be a target??

There IS a common denominator. The choice of the individual who did the killing. The choice to load the gun and aim and shoot to kill.

Using your line of thinking, Ziggy, the murder of those children was about the ills of divorce and the destruction of the nuclear family. It distracts from the truly responsible one.

Does having to hand over 40% of your paycheck to child support justify murder? I'm talking about the line of reason and justification for murder here.

That's why I say the doctor's murder has nothing to do with abortion. It was not CAUSED by abortion. It was not CAUSED by nine judges deciding "for us" that late term abortion was OK.

It was caused by a murderer. Period. So, it's murder.

One murder is no different than any other. There's a common denominator in all murders, no matter the mitigating circumstances. We should not apply different lines of reasoning when it comes to murder. Our law in this country does not. At best, we are just flapping our lips to no avail. Expressing our opinion, FWIW. Getting distracted by our OWN personal beliefs that are not shared by the majority of this society.

That just keeps us all in the wash rinse repeat cycle. And we just quibble but nothing workable gets done.

 

[MomofBoys]

Murdering the doctor was wrong, and murder should never be advocated, regardless of the justification.

I feel kinda sick inside, though, because the news brought out some unpleasant feelings in me. I don't want to be judged, but while I come here to help advocate for victims of crimes, I can't seem to find any sadness in me. In fact, I had a sudden, brief, and conflicting moment where I wasn't even sure I wasn't a bit relieved.

Again, no one should kill another person, but this was a man who, arguably, would perform late-term abortions with questionable justification and little-to-no oversight. One of three clinics in the country that do such abortions. At that gestation and for those reasons (anxiety in the mother, etc) I believe that's murder, too. So I'm really dealing with a conflict in my own mind on how I should feel about this whole thing.

As a law-abiding citizen, I feel it's wrong. Knowing that he had family and friends and probably grandbabies of his own, I feel sad. Can I say that there's not a part of me that sees a twinge of hope that two or 20 babies might be saved? I can't.

Please don't attack me; I'm as troubled by this as some people might be by my post. I'm just being honest. I condemn murder and the bombing of abortion clinics, but I also condemn the brutal deaths of late-term fetuses. There are few means of execution more horrific than what those babies go through in their final moments.

He did not heedlessly murder viable babies. He conducted legal late term abortions within strict criteria.

That is definitely up for debate. He did a lot to garner attention the last several years, whether it was because of the alleged third-party oversight by his own employee, or the records that he performed a third trimester abortion for anxiety in the mother. That, to me, is outright murder. Not saying he deserved this, but he wasn't exactly the white knight of womens' health.

 

[PeteyGirl]

A man and a father and a grandfather was murdered in cold blood. Any justification of it is not helping the situation.

He did not heedlessly murder viable babies. He conducted legal late term abortions within strict criteria.

That said, what he did for his job is something I can't imagine doing, or having done, be it a late pregnancy or a little ball of cells.

What happened to him makes the faction of our society that takes political action against abortion -- a fine thing to do, that is their right -- look really, really bad. I'm sure there are many decent folks who oppose abortion that are sickened by the murder of this doctor. And who also believe his murder has NOTHING to do with abortion.

 

[Kimster]

MomofBoys, I was feeling the same way and analyzed myself this way:

Joey B. is the prime suspect in the murder of Jenn and Nina Wix. Chris Coleman has been arrested for murdering his wife and two boys. Now, if someone shot and killed either one of them, I wouldn't be mourning at their funerals. But yet, I still know that murder is murder and the person who chose to take the law in his/her own hands would have to be prosecuted like any other murderer, even though I might not be crying about it.

Petey put wrote it out very well, IMO.

 

[scandi]

Hi Momofboys, I was almost afraid to post my feelings, but my thoughts mirror yours for the most part.

IMO this man had chosen a contraversial profession and cause for action due to his beliefs. It did put him in danger physically with all the kooks out there that prey on people like this. He knew this and in the past took measures of protection from people like this with body guards, wearing a bullet proof vest, etc. It was worth it to him to keep on with his life work despite the possibility of someday being gunned down.

Nothing justifies his murder.

 

[DBinMA]

I used to be very much pro choice (and I still am for the most part though I despise the very concept of abortion...but I can't make that decision for anyone else). I just wish more women would take advantage of the options available to not become pregnant when you don't want to. Now obviously birth control fails and there are a whole host of other bad things (rape, incest etc) BUT I still think abortion is used far too often as a form of birth control.

 

[scandi]

A man and a father and a grandfather was murdered in cold blood. Any justification of it is not helping the situation.

He did not heedlessly murder viable babies. He conducted legal late term abortions within strict criteria.

That said, what he did for his job is something I can't imagine doing, or having done, be it a late pregnancy or a little ball of cells.

What happened to him makes the faction of our society that takes political action against abortion -- a fine thing to do, that is their right -- look really, really bad. I'm sure there are many decent folks who oppose abortion that are sickened by the murder of this doctor. And who also believe his murder has NOTHING to do with abortion.

Hi PeteyGirl, I do agree with your post except for the last point as to those who believe his murder had nothing to do with abortion. I think his murder had everything to do with abortion, at least until we find out differently. xox

 

[LinasK]

Hi PeteyGirl, I do agree with your post except for the last point as to those who believe his murder had nothing to do with abortion. I think his murder had everything to do with abortion, at least until we find out differently. xox

Nonetheless, respectfully Scandi- you know I appreciate your thoughts- whether or not Dr. Tiller performed abortions, even late- term ones, does NOT justify his murder- unarmed, in cold blood, and at a church!

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Abortion should not be debated here, imo. A man was murdered in cold blood and the last time I checked, it was definitely against the law and all moral codes. The motive shouldn't make any difference. Murder is murder.

If my child was molested and I hunted down then killed the man who did it...I am just as wrong as if I killed a man who had done nothing wrong his entire life. I could justify it to myself, but in the eyes of the law or society...I am no better than any other murderer only because I thought he deserved it.

 

[LinasK]

Abortion should not be debated here, imo. A man was murdered in cold blood and the last time I checked, it was definitely against the law and all moral codes. The motive shouldn't make any difference. Murder is murder.

If my child was molested and I hunted down then killed the man who did it...I am just as wrong as if I killed a man who had done nothing wrong his entire life. I could justify it to myself, but in the eyes of the law or society...I am no better than any other murderer only because I thought he deserved it.

Very true! Ellie Nesler killed her son's child molester in court. Just because he deserved it, didn't make her any better than him, just a vigilante murderer!

 

[DeeMarie]

Hi PeteyGirl, I do agree with your post except for the last point as to those who believe his murder had nothing to do with abortion. I think his murder had everything to do with abortion, at least until we find out differently. xox

I think if a clear psychological analysis of Dr. George Tillers murderer the abortion factor would be low on the list. There are a lot deeper mental issues that made Dr. George Tillers murderer pull the trigger.
Religious extremist are capable of the worst atrocities-This is shown throughout history. The murderer is deranged and the religion/abortion piece is just an excuse for the killers behavior.
The debate is this: Does a persons belief system create a murderer-or does a murderer already exists only to find a belief system to justify their actions to kill?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Very true! Ellie Nesler killed her son's child molester in court. Just because he deserved it, didn't make her any better than him, just a vigilante murderer!

And it sure didn't make a better life for Nellie or her son.

Violence never is the answer and it just exacerbates the problem.

Nellie went to prison and her son had to do without his mom.

Then she winds up in prison again after getting out and the son that was molested is now in prison for stomping a man to death.

imo

 

[scandi]

Nonetheless, respectfully Scandi- you know I appreciate your thoughts- whether or not Dr. Tiller performed abortions, even late- term ones, does NOT justify his murder- unarmed, in cold blood, and at a church!

Thank you Linask and I do agree with you. I didn't mean I thought his murder was justified. I was speaking from the point of view of his killer, surmising that was what prompted him to kill Dr Tiller. :blowkiss:

 

[Kimster]

I think if a clear psychological analysis of Dr. George Tillers murderer the abortion factor would be low on the list. There are a lot deeper mental issues that made Dr. George Tillers murderer pull the trigger.
Religious extremist are capable of the worst atrocities-This is shown throughout history. The murderer is deranged and the religion/abortion piece is just an excuse for the killers behavior.
The debate is this: Does a persons belief system create a murderer-or does a murderer already exists only to find a belief system to justify their actions to kill?

Murderers throughout history have always had an excuse, religous or otherwise. I think it has everything to do with their belief system - the belief that they themselves are all that matters!!!

 

[Cubby]

This has nothing to do with the abortion debate. A man was murdered in cold blood. His line of work was legal. A faction of the voting population of the US feels what he does is murder while in this country the overwhelming majority does not. Religious belief does not change the FACTS or the reality of this doctors murder.

The murderer will be a martyr to only a few. To the rest of us, he will be a cold blooded killer who deserves punishment to the full extent of the law.

I agree. Regardless of stance on abortion, it is no reason to murder in cold blood. Judgement of this mans actions should have been left to his creator. Not some fanatic who murdered in the house of God, claiming to do Gods work.


Despite ones thoughts on abortion, I can never feel happy about those who bomb or murder abortion clinics. IF that can be justified because abortion is murder, why not go gunning down the CEO's of those who produce alcohol or the manufacturers of tobacco because both can cause the death of a fetus? What about the pharmacutal companies who produce presciption drugs which have not yet been fully tested but are later found to cause miscarriages? Why not gun all them down too?

 

[Betty P]

Rumor has it, the murderer was from Operation Rescue - a guy named Scott Roeder. He had already spent time in prison for a 1996 arrest for possession of a bomb.

Looks like he may not get parole very soon for this crime.

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/conten...at-Wichita-Church/NoIGaXuul0C-RBrbTPnBjw.cspx