Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022 - #2

[Diddian]

Hopefully they can make a chart, untangle lies and move forward.

Richard Allen the Delphi murderer was convicted after a retired detective from CPS was doing volunteer "housekeeping" on the case, reviewing initial case interviews and she found that the Carroll County Sheriff's office had misfiled RAs initial interview and marked "cleared" in error.

That initial interview contained the information to fix his time and location the trail, and thus be able to prove he was the man on the bridge, beyond a reasonable doubt.

MOO Same here -

I would like to add the Georgia Bureau of Investigation did a "thorough" peer "top to bottom" case review in Delphi and did not find this discrepancy -
Apparently it took a retired "girl" detective to dig in and look at every single thing.

I suggest they hire her to come look at this case. (Kathy Shank)

Delphi was truly an unfortunate error likely due to the sheer volume of information that was coming in and the inadequacy of staff to manage it in the beginning. Delphi, Indiana is a very small town where crimes like what happened to Abby & Libby - opportunistic abduction and murder of victims likely unknown to the perpetrator - rarely occur.

But investigators SHOULD most certainly treat very carefully information that comes in early. In the Delphi case, Allen "self-reported" his presence near where Abby & Libby were killed, likely because he feared that he may have been seen walking the trails that day and/or his wife might recognize him from the photo (taken from Libby's cellphone) of the perpetrator approaching Abby and Libby that LE released very early in the case. Given that perpetrators will be concerned about whether they have been detected and are under suspicion, such "self-reports" should receive scrutiny by more than one person, and certainly by a person who possesses the kind of skepticism necessary to investigative work.

Ticking items off a list to put them in the "done" box is not skeptical enough.

 

[Boxer]

Delphi was truly an unfortunate error likely due to the sheer volume of information that was coming in and the inadequacy of staff to manage it in the beginning. Delphi, Indiana is a very small town where crimes like what happened to Abby & Libby - opportunistic abduction and murder of victims likely unknown to the perpetrator - rarely occur.

But investigators SHOULD most certainly treat very carefully information that comes in early. In the Delphi case, Allen "self-reported" his presence near where Abby & Libby were killed, likely because he feared that he may have been seen walking the trails that day and/or his wife might recognize him from the photo (taken from Libby's cellphone) of the perpetrator approaching Abby and Libby that LE released very early in the case. Given that perpetrators will be concerned about whether they have been detected and are under suspicion, such "self-reports" should receive scrutiny by more than one person, and certainly by a person who possesses the kind of skepticism necessary to investigative work.

Ticking items off a list to put them in the "done" box is not skeptical enough.

Yes. And MOO the peer review agency GBI case audit not physically going through that "done" box of original materials is as big a error.

 

[Diddian]

Yes. And MOO the peer review agency GBI case audit not physically going through that "done" box of original materials is as big a error.

Good point. I agree.

 

[dulcinea]

In the full-length of that interview with Desiree, she makes reference to 3 attempts at murder-for-hire of Kaine by Terri. I was aware of the 1 alleged attempt involving the landscaper (whom LE used in a failed attempt to gain evidence against Terri about that MFH plot).

What were the other 2 and have they been reported anywhere other than in this interview by Desiree?

Is it possible that Desiree has confused the following as additional MFH attempts against Kaine, or are were there in fact other attempts against Kaine?

There was an alleged attempt against a boyfriend, SR, which occurred at a park in Roseburg in 1990 but went unreported at that time. It was brought to the attention of authorities after Kyron disappeared and is reportedly under investigation. A more recent threat of murder-for-hire against a boyfriend, JC, and his family that Terri allegedly made while holding a a knife against that boyfriend's face occurred after Terri moved to California. That boyfriend was unaware of Terri's history involving the disappearance of Kyron in Oregon.

Terri Horman accused of murder-for-hire plot in 1990 - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

PORTLAND, Ore. – Roseburg detectives are following up on allegations that Terri Horman was involved in a murder-for-hire plot decades ago, according to a special KGW-TV report. Terri Horman faced scrutiny after the 2010 disappearance of her stepson, Kyron Horman. But she hasn’t been charged with...

kobi5.com

Kyron Horman's stepmother accused of domestic violence

The stepmother of Kyron Horman, Terri Lynn Moulton, also known as Terri Horman, is accused of domestic violence.

www.kgw.com

I don't know if I was unaware of these attempts or forgot about them over the years, but wow! I know that past alleged behavior does not equate to disappearing Kyron, but it surely does not help her case. It boggles my mind how, if these allegations are true, she is not behind bars. If they are true, it just seems like a matter of time before someone is hurt at her hands...if no one has already been.

 

[Diddian]

Delphi was truly an unfortunate error likely due to the sheer volume of information that was coming in and the inadequacy of staff to manage it in the beginning. Delphi, Indiana is a very small town where crimes like what happened to Abby & Libby - opportunistic abduction and murder of victims likely unknown to the perpetrator - rarely occur.

But investigators SHOULD most certainly treat very carefully information that comes in early. In the Delphi case, Allen "self-reported" his presence near where Abby & Libby were killed, likely because he feared that he may have been seen walking the trails that day and/or his wife might recognize him from the photo (taken from Libby's cellphone) of the perpetrator approaching Abby and Libby that LE released very early in the case. Given that perpetrators will be concerned about whether they have been detected and are under suspicion, such "self-reports" should receive scrutiny by more than one person, and certainly by a person who possesses the kind of skepticism necessary to investigative work.

Ticking items off a list to put them in the "done" box is not skeptical enough.

Replying to my own post here because it may sound like this was a criticism aimed at law enforcement on this case but was intended as a more general statement in answer to the comment about the mistake made in the Delphi case.

I haven’t followed this case until recently so have no basis for criticism of anything law enforcement has done here and am hopeful that digitizing the files and giving them a fresh look proves fruitful.

 

[katydid23]

I would LOVE to see Kyron's sad case reinvigorated and finally resolved. It's well past the time and he deserves nothing less.

 

[minazoe]

This article is very good

Investigation into Kyron Horman's disappearance boosted ahead of 15th anniversary - The Portland Tribune

An aggressive review of the investigation into the unexplained disappearance of 7-year-old Kyron Horman from a rural Northwest Portland school is being promised by Multnomah County investigators and prosecutors ahead of its 15th year anniversary. Kyron disappeared from Skyline Elementary School...

portlandtribune.com

 

[minazoe]

does anyone know why Teri and her friend were using burner phones? I forgot all about that.

who has a burner phone??? especially back then, it's so sneaky and suspicious..WHY?????

I've never known anyone who had a burner phone. WOW. mOO

 

[Diddian]

does anyone know why Teri and her friend were using burner phones? I forgot all about that.

who has a burner phone??? especially back then, it's so sneaky and suspicious..WHY?????

I've never known anyone who had a burner phone. WOW. mOO

I don't know, but have a theory.

IMO, DeDe may have been impersonating TMH for the critical roughly two hours between approximately 9:45 to 11:30 - driving the backroads in the Horman's Ford F150 with both TMH's daughter and TMH's phone along. I think the reason DeDe left her own cellphone locked in her parked car at the farm where she was supposed to be working is so that authorities would not be able to use DeDe's phone to detect her location as she impersonated TMH.

The two needed burner phones to communicate with each other during this time since TMH did not have her own phone with her (it was with DeDe) and DeDe did not have her own phone with her (it was locked in DeDe's parked car). They were likely engaging in an act of misdirection (a TMH specialty - there was plenty of it that morning).

Why would TMH need DeDe to impersonate TMH during those hours? Because TMH may have been disposing of her stepson's body and would not want authorities to be able to determine WHERE she was doing that. And if Kyron's body were ever found where TMH disposed of it, TMH could point to the determined locations of the Horman pickup and TMH's phone as alibi to prove that she was not there to do that, so it must have been someone else.

It would be interesting to know the answer to the following questions:

• Did any calls or texts come in to TMH's phone during those critical roughly two hours? If so, were they answered immediately? Or instead, did TMH not respond until later, sometime around the time she went to the gym (roughly 11:30 or so)? Note that IF the discovery of Kyron's absence had motivated the school to contact TMH to verify the doctor appointment date (since there was some confusion about it), they would have called during that roughly 2 hour period.

• Did DeDe typically carry her own phone on her person, so that leaving it in a locked car for a few hours that morning was atypical of her?

 

[Annabel-Lee]

does anyone know why Teri and her friend were using burner phones? I forgot all about that.

who has a burner phone??? especially back then, it's so sneaky and suspicious..WHY?????

I've never known anyone who had a burner phone. WOW. mOO

I thought they were using burner phones because either: they knew the police wire tapped the house or that the police confiscated the phones to look through as evidence.

 

[Diddian]

I thought they were using burner phones because either: they knew the police wire tapped the house or that the police confiscated the phones to look through as evidence.

I do think that has been reported.

However, IMO two people who buy burner phones a week or so after a crime has been committed to ensure they have privacy from law enforcement are good candidates for also having bought burner phones before the crime was committed and then disposed of them.

They have demonstrated their awareness that cellphone data and location are used to investigate crimes and their willingness to engage in a "work-around."

 

[minazoe]

she's truly sneaky and diabolical by nature it seems. mOO

 

[Diddian]

she's truly sneaky and diabolical by nature it seems. mOO

I'd describe her as sneaky and self-centered, with the tendency to use confusion and misdirection as cover to do whatever she wants and also a tendency to project blame upon others for her own poor choices and failures.

Examples: The miscommunication about the doctor's appointment was because the teacher is inexperienced and can't hear well out of one ear. TMH failed the polygraph because she can't hear well out of one ear (so took too long to process answers to questions). She sexted with a man - including sending explicit photos of herself - within 26 days of Kyron's disappearance because "Kaine did it first" (sexting someone) and LE was setting her up.

She has no shame and believes retaliation is justified when she believes she has been wronged.

 

[minazoe]

I'd describe her as sneaky and self-centered, with the tendency to use confusion and misdirection as cover to do whatever she wants and also a tendency to project blame upon others for her own poor choices and failures.

Examples: The miscommunication about the doctor's appointment was because the teacher is inexperienced and can't hear well out of one ear. TMH failed the polygraph because she can't hear well out of one ear (so took too long to process answers to questions). She sexted with a man - including sending explicit photos of herself - within 26 days of Kyron's disappearance because "Kaine did it first" (sexting someone) and LE was setting her up.

She has no shame and believes retaliation is justified when she believes she has been wronged.

she is very hard. and I think a good behavioralist is going to be able to "unpack her" ( I heard that phrase on The Better Sister). . mOO

 

[Diddian]

she is very hard. and I think a good behavioralist is going to be able to "unpack her" ( I heard that phrase on The Better Sister). . mOO

I agree. But even "unpacked," I will never understand how a grown adult could do to a 7 year old child what I think she likely did. Kyron was entitled to his own precious life.

 

[minazoe]

I agree. But even "unpacked," I will never understand how a grown adult could do to a 7 year old child what I think she likely did. Kyron was entitled to his own precious life.

oh no, no one understands this.and I will add..the idea that she just drove around and doesn't remember is totally RIDICULOUS! She knows her way around and she knows where she was driving that day. think about it..you have a sick baby who you want to go to sleep so you drive around ..you left the school..you drove over by the park , you went up and down beaverton..you went over by the logging roads over there and swung around and back..

you remember where you went..that's just utter garbage! mOO

 

[Knox]

I'd describe her as sneaky and self-centered, with the tendency to use confusion and misdirection as cover to do whatever she wants and also a tendency to project blame upon others for her own poor choices and failures.

Examples: The miscommunication about the doctor's appointment was because the teacher is inexperienced and can't hear well out of one ear. TMH failed the polygraph because she can't hear well out of one ear (so took too long to process answers to questions). She sexted with a man - including sending explicit photos of herself - within 26 days of Kyron's disappearance because "Kaine did it first" (sexting someone) and LE was setting her up.

She has no shame and believes retaliation is justified when she believes she has been wronged.

I’d describe her as (among ither things) , a very dangerous injustice collector.

 

[elissarachel]

I honestly just assumed Alice and Gina were the same person. The Morris book says Alice (and her daughter Ellie) are pseudonyms, both Alice and Gina do volunteer work with the school, both their daughters were 8 and friends with Kyron and both made the same claim of seeing Kyron in the classroom with Terri taking the picture. Gina and her daughter are never mentioned by name in the book, and media quotes Gina did are matched by Alice in the book.



There is actually another source that gives an approximate time for the picture: 8:30, also Gina Zimmerman. Bear in mind, this is half a year later, and if Gina/Alice is to be believed, she was already suspecting Terri by then.

The thing is, I can vaguely see why an 8:45 timestamp for the picture would be appealing to Desiree. It would mean that when Terri left the classroom she could have said "taking him to an appointment" to fool Porter while not risking being seen wandering the school with Kyron for the next 15 minutes. Remember in her email, Terri is obviously claiming that it was her final words as she left that were misinterpreted by the teacher.



That's two completely different sets of actions, and if she intended to visit other exhibits for 15-20 minutes before leaving, Terri's words in the email would make little sense in a guilt-centric narrative. But if Terri left immediately, it would work, however she was seen elsewhere in the school, so now the final conversation with Porter has to postdate that. Hence the second visit to the classroom, the second posing by the project and picture-taking.

It is, of course, incredibly convoluted and contrived, and relies entirely on the words of a single person - Desiree, nine years later, who wasn't there.

Another place it falters is that Gina/Alice, who is quoted in the book as believing in Terri's guilt, never thinks it would be pertinent to mention Terri's two visits to the classroom and that the second ended with the school bell. The students were supposed to be put into groups, yet Terri just walks away with Kyron in front of Porter, Gina/Alice and everyone? It makes sense if it happened between 8:15 and 8:30. It doesn't make sense if it happened at 8:45.

Yet another place it falters is that we have actual witness testimony that Kyron was supposed to be in a group.



Yet Porter didn't say that Kyron was going with his mother. Why, if she walked away with him just as the groups were supposed to be formed?

Still yet another place it falters is that if initially said she took the picture at 8:45 (as Desiree claims), why would she ever change that time? She had to know the picture was timestamped. This is a common thread in Desiree's late-coming new "facts" - the supposed email, the photo - they supposedly provide actual undeniable evidence that Terri denies, yet she would absolutely have known about.

Everything else points to Terri and Kyron beginning at 213, then going around the school, and never returning to 213 together. Desiree is the only one who has ever disagreed.



The problem with this - especially with the factoids the Morris book brings - is that people lie for reasons. They don't lie just for the fun of it.

And the picture painted by the supposed lies of Terri is utterly without reason. If she lied, she would have lied to fit the evidence she knew about.

The email, the 8:50 witnesses, the photo time-stamp, they make for compelling headlines, but when you try to fit them into everything that was revealed in the early stages of the investigation, they just don't fit.



Which a. doesn't match the actual witness account by TP or b. reality, since such an email would not exist.



So she took Kyron to 213, had him pose with the project (and presumably didn't take a picture), then walked around, visited Kyron's old teacher, walked back up, had Kyron pose a second time with the project, take a picture, then leave with Kyron for a tour despite the chaperone-led groups being formed.

And all this happened in front of Gina/Alice (who sees Terri telling her about the June 11th appointment as her asking Gina/Alice to lie) and she doesn't see fit to mention it when interviewed by Rebecca Morris? And if she did, why didn't Morris mention it? It can't be for investigative reasons, since she's had no problem revealing the (supposed) sighting of Kyron and Terri outside at 8:50 - even giving the name of a witness, a minor! - and all manner of other details.



But they won't.



Here it is mentioned. I checked the podcast for the full quote.



Granted, this could just be Desiree's fairly sloppy way of giving information, but it sure reads like technology has given the new time for that picture. This is not mentioned in the book.

I’ve experienced narcissistic and sociopathic family members literally lie for zero reason knowing the facts were clear. They don’t even care and keep putting forth the lies regardless…even with the proper can truth in their face. So it does happen in my experience and IMO TH could be doing this in f she is a narcissist and sociopath for no actual reason.

 

[Diddian]

KGW News - "Kyron Horman, 15 years missing: New details and exclusive interviews: